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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:18 pm 
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....... or all of the above ??

On awarding the 2022 World Cup to Qatar, Blatter now says " It may be that we made a mistake at the time" :roll: :roll:

Did the brains at FIFA not consider the summer playing temperatures when the bids were originally looked at ?

If not, it makes you wonder what they were up to.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:48 pm 
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Definitely all of the above.

As I said in the other thread though, I believed all along the plan was to hold it in the winter. Now they're just trying to smooth the way for it to happen with these statements.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:50 pm 
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The sheet with the temperature details on was buried under a mass of brown envelopes.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:26 pm 
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They should have probably realised it would be a bit warm outside when they were promised that all the stadiums would be roofed with full air conditioning.

I still think it's a good thing to take the World Cup to different places. The weather in the summer is not suitable grounds to not allow people of the Middle East a chance to host a World Cup.

It should be moved the winter. It's a change it doesn't harm anybody.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:45 pm 
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lo36789 wrote:
They should have probably realised it would be a bit warm outside when they were promised that all the stadiums would be roofed with full air conditioning.

I still think it's a good thing to take the World Cup to different places. The weather in the summer is not suitable grounds to not allow people of the Middle East a chance to host a World Cup.

It should be moved the winter. It's a change it doesn't harm anybody.

It fucking harms me.

I want to be able to watch the world cup in a pub with a beer garden, so I can get drunk in the sun all afternoon.

Can I do this in January? No I can't.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:40 pm 
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To move the competition would create fixture chaos all around Europe but that's not really what I was getting at.

The thing is I find it incomprehensible that FIFA didn't/couldn't work out beforehand that when it came to kick off time, it would be very very hot.

Bonkers....

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:01 am 
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lo36789 wrote:
They should have probably realised it would be a bit warm outside when they were promised that all the stadiums would be roofed with full air conditioning.

I still think it's a good thing to take the World Cup to different places. The weather in the summer is not suitable grounds to not allow people of the Middle East a chance to host a World Cup.

It should be moved the winter. It's a change it doesn't harm anybody.


For me, moving the World Cup to winter misses the point.

Qatar were awarded the World Cup on the basis it was a summer tournament. That was their bid.

If what is being delivered is massively different to what was voted on, the whole bidding process should be re-run. Of course that won't happen.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:03 am 
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Darlogramps wrote:
Qatar were awarded the World Cup on the basis it was a summer tournament. That was their bid.


And Qatar would happily be able to run a World Cup in the summer.

It is the organisation that awarded them the competition that is asking them to deviate from their plan.

If anything Qatar are the ones with the choice to say "this isn't what we agreed to do".


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:08 am 
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lo36789 wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Qatar were awarded the World Cup on the basis it was a summer tournament. That was their bid.


And Qatar would happily be able to run a World Cup in the summer.

It is the organisation that awarded them the competition that is asking them to deviate from their plan.

If anything Qatar are the ones with the choice to say "this isn't what we agreed to do".


Qatar would not "happily be able to run a World Cup in the summer."

Otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

They might WANT to do a summer World Cup, but they can't because it's unworkable.

Trying to say otherwise shows the Qatari organisers are deluded.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:54 am 
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The main concern as I understand it is the safety of people outside of the stadiums. I am saying this because I read that as part of the bid all stadiums and training facilities will be fully air conditioned so will be considerably cooler than the outside temperatures. Keeping players and fans in a comfortable condition.

The actual running of the tournament putting games on having the facilities available, transport infrastructure, security etc. will all be fully operational therein meaning Qatar can cope with a summer World Cup.

What they can't control is people who won't take necessary and sensible precautions when left to their own devices. Given Qatari people manage to live in their country throughout the summer it is clearly possible to do so. The only way it can be argued to me that they couldn't cope with the WC over the summer is if it is found that their health services are not prepared for increased custom from those that can't look after themselves.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:31 pm 
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lo36789 wrote:
The main concern as I understand it is the safety of people outside of the stadiums. I am saying this because I read that as part of the bid all stadiums and training facilities will be fully air conditioned so will be considerably cooler than the outside temperatures. Keeping players and fans in a comfortable condition.

The actual running of the tournament putting games on having the facilities available, transport infrastructure, security etc. will all be fully operational therein meaning Qatar can cope with a summer World Cup.

What they can't control is people who won't take necessary and sensible precautions when left to their own devices. Given Qatari people manage to live in their country throughout the summer it is clearly possible to do so. The only way it can be argued to me that they couldn't cope with the WC over the summer is if it is found that their health services are not prepared for increased custom from those that can't look after themselves.


You can't half talk a load of crap sometimes.

People in Qatar can cope with the heat because they are used to do doing so. They will have lived for a long time in that country and climate.

People in the much cooler areas of the world will not be able to cope with temperatures which are more than double what they're used.

And you're saying it's the fans' fault if they struggle in the heat? Ridiculously flawed argument.

If it was a case of a few extra degrees then you would have a point. But we're talking massive jumps in temperatures. A bit of sun cream and a few extra bottles of water won't cover it.

These air conditioned stadiums have never been tested for such large stadiums, and the Qataris haven't even guaranteed to FIFA that they will definitely work.

There's also no way you can say Qatar's infrastructure is fine and will cope, because it hasn't even been built and tested yet, but this is going off the point.

If Qatar could sensibly host a summer World Cup, then FIFA would not be talking about changing it to winter. That's the bottom line.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:11 pm 
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FIFA have the wider responsibility of the fans safety throughout the tournament. That is why they are wanting to move it to the winter. They appreciate that fans will struggle outside of the stadium and their welfare will potentially suffer during their period in Qatar.

Qatar have a responsibility as the host country to put the tournament on. To make sure that the fixtures take place where and when they are scheduled. Teams and fans have security as they move around the country. I have no doubt that a country like Qatar would be able to get everything built and operational in 9 years.

I just had a look to see what temperature we are looking at and a low of 29 in June and July with average of 41c or 106 Farenheit. What were the temperatures like during the USA World Cup? When I was in the midwest of America a few years ago over the same time period it was 100+ pretty much every day.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:59 pm 
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lo36789 wrote:
FIFA have the wider responsibility of the fans safety throughout the tournament. That is why they are wanting to move it to the winter.


Well then why award it to Qatar in the first place?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:16 pm 
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DarloOnTheUp wrote:
lo36789 wrote:
FIFA have the wider responsibility of the fans safety throughout the tournament. That is why they are wanting to move it to the winter.


Well then why award it to Qatar in the first place?


Because every region of the world should have the opportunity to host the world cup.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:36 pm 
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lo36789 wrote:
DarloOnTheUp wrote:
lo36789 wrote:
FIFA have the wider responsibility of the fans safety throughout the tournament. That is why they are wanting to move it to the winter.


Well then why award it to Qatar in the first place?


Because every region of the world should have the opportunity to host the world cup.


Right, but what they've basically done is awarded it to a country on the basis that it would be a summer world cup, then decided afterwards that that would be impossible. Well yeah, that was obvious in the first place. All regions of the world should have a chance but they still have to be suitable: and a country where being gay is illegal, and the summer temperatures are ridiculous isn't really suitable, is it?

I thought that was the whole point of the bidding process: to determine which country was the most suitable. If they want to move it to the winter then they should re-do the bidding process for a winter world cup, and make sure that would be even possible BEFORE awarding anything.

And FIFA couldn't give a flying fuck about the fans: all they care about is money. So fuck them. Why should we rearrange our entire league structure just so they can get a bigger of wad of cash?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:59 pm 
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DarloOnTheUp wrote:
And FIFA couldn't give a flying fuck about the fans: all they care about is money. So fuck them. Why should we rearrange our entire league structure just so they can get a bigger of wad of cash?


Yep starting the league 2 weeks early and ending it 2 weeks later is going to be an extreme hardship. Who knows it might even make the World Cup better as players won't be going into it having played 60-70 matches in the past 9 months!

You know we are not actually that important in the grand scheme of things. What is the view across the continent given they have a winter break anyway? I'd be suprised if FIFA cares about our tiny islands little stand against it and why should they.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:05 pm 
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lo36789 wrote:
DarloOnTheUp wrote:
And FIFA couldn't give a flying fuck about the fans: all they care about is money. So fuck them. Why should we rearrange our entire league structure just so they can get a bigger of wad of cash?


Yep starting the league 2 weeks early and ending it 2 weeks later is going to be an extreme hardship. Who knows it might even make the World Cup better as players won't be going into it having played 60-70 matches in the past 9 months!

You know we are not actually that important in the grand scheme of things. What is the view across the continent given they have a winter break anyway? I'd be suprised if FIFA cares about our tiny islands little stand against it and why should they.


It's not as simple as you're making it out to be, and I'll think you'll find that most, if not all, European leagues would prefer not to have a major tournament in the middle of their domestic season.

Also, the more we can inconvenience Blatter and FIFA, the better!


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:46 pm 
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lo36789 wrote:
Yep starting the league 2 weeks early and ending it 2 weeks later is going to be an extreme hardship.



lo3, read these two bits I've copied from some Eurosport thing.

"In 2012, FIFA asked its experts to come up with a reasoned schedule of the 2014 World Cup. The Executive Committee – of which Platini was and remains a member – decreed that clubs should release their players no later than May 19 2014, the final being played in Rio on 13 July. That’s already close to two months, not one, and far more than the average winter break in European leagues, to which must be added a period of rest for those players who will have taken part in the latter stages of the tournament."

"Think of the legal implications for players’ contracts, broadcasting and sponsorship agreements and the like that would accompany a re-definition of what constitutes a football season. Think of these countries where training and playing at the height of the summer is impossible – all those of the Mediterranean basin to start with – countries which would have no choice but to soldier on in unbearable heat to accommodate a winter World Cup.
This logistical nightmare would also be a costly operation for all of FIFA’s 209 affiliated associations, humble as they may be. Because of the quasi-universal pyramidal structure of the game, lower divisions and amateur football too would have to re-think their modus operandi. When a rock of that size is dropped in a pond, the ripples reach the furthest shores.
All leagues and all nations are ultimately interconnected; through the ebb and flow of promotion and relegation; through continental competitions and transfers. What we are talking about is a radical transformation of football as we know it, not a temporary variation which its adversaries could easily live with if only they showed a little more good will."

"No provisions have been made for this transformation yet. No one knows for sure whom the responsibility for this colossal upheaval lies with. No feasibility study has been commissioned – none that has been made public, at least. All we know is that the FIFA ExCo will listen to what Blatter has to say on the subject at its next Congress on October 3 and 4 and will in all likelihood follow his recommendation – that is, that the 2022 World Cup cannot and will not be played in the summer in Qatar."


The last sentence for me says it all! For "world Cup cannot and will not be played in the summer in Qatar" ---- Read "great big cock up by Blatter and his mates"

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:13 am 
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Ah but we already move the season back 2 weeks to accommodate a Summer World Cup and start it a week early. So they already cram it into a week less.

So last time out the season finished on around the 15th May, as you say under normal circumstances the World Cup would be playing until 11th/12th July anyway. That is your 8weeks/2months.

The lower leagues could continue to play up to the start of the World Cup and resume immediately after. The lower leagues would have mostly call offs during Jan/February anyway, much more chance of getting games on in June less chance of them wasting money on postponements.

The Premier League guys well the majority of them will get an 8week break, then the majority of the remainder will get about 2 weeks whilst the WC knockouts are played.

Lets be frank we are talking about fitting be same amount of games into the same timeframe, with the same allowances for rest and release dates. Of course it is possible.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:03 am 
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From reading through his posts, it's becoming clear lo3678 has no idea what he's talking about.

His argument is full of generalisations, assumptions, contradictions and blatant inaccuracies.

He's already gone back on his absurd "It's the fans' fault if they can't cope with 50 degree heat" argument.

His point about moving the start date of the season is plainly laughable. There are plankton in the ocean who could pull apart what he is saying, so I'm not going to expend the energy doing so.

I'm not wasting any more time debating with someone who clearly hasn't faintest idea about what he's saying.

Bottom line - Qatar cannot host a World Cup in summer. If they could, FIFA would not be talking about moving it. Sir Waffle-a-lot can't get that simple fact into his skull.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:19 am 
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All I said is that Qatar isn't exactly baron, its not uninhabitable. In fact summer time temperatures are cooler than those in Egypt and Dubai where many people go on holiday, if you recall all that was in response to was your claims that somehow because FIFA want to move the competition Qatar had failed to meet the terms by which they were awarded the World Cup and should therefore have it stripped and re-allocated. It is actually them who are being potentially made to change the terms they agreed to host it under.

Yes, how laughable to change the start date of a season, when that already happens every time there is a World Cup. The season kicks off a week early and ends 2 weeks early every 4 years. I don't really understand why just because the World Cup isn't in the summer it somehow changes that we are capable of making similar adjustments in the other direction.

The only thing that is actually restrictive in hindsight is that the domestic season must finish by 30th June as new season registrations start on 1st July.

In a World Cup year there are x number of Premier League games to play, x number of domestic cup, x number of European, x number of internationals. Regardless of whether the competition takes place in January-February or in June-July those games have to be played in that year.

Considering you accuse me of being mixed up. You are stating that a season CANNOT be changed and also that the World Cup MUST be played in the Winter, it can't be both.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:59 am 
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There is one part of lo3's viewpoint I agree with.

And that is ----- THIS -----


lo36789 wrote:
And Qatar would happily be able to run a World Cup in the summer.

It is the organisation that awarded them the competition that is asking them to deviate from their plan.



That is my whole point and brings everything round in a big circle. FIFA are incompetent. They have decided - Qatar are the winners of our bidding process. Now they realise - Oh hang on, it won't work!

To move it will cause chaos, and that was never the idea anyway.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:21 pm 
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lo36789 wrote:
All I said is that Qatar isn't exactly baron, its not uninhabitable. In fact summer time temperatures are cooler than those in Egypt and Dubai where many people go on holiday.


No you didn't. You said it was the fans' fault if they weren't able to cope with the heat. Your waffling about Egypt and Dubai is irrelevant.

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If you recall all that was in response to was your claims that somehow because FIFA want to move the competition Qatar had failed to meet the terms by which they were awarded the World Cup and should therefore have it stripped and re-allocated. It is actually them who are being potentially made to change the terms they agreed to host it under.


Don't exaggerate the point I'm making. My point is that Qatar shouldn't have been awarded the tournament because they cannot host it in the summer. Hence why FIFA are indicating it will be moved.

In their bid, Qatar have not sufficiently dealt with how they will ensure the welfare of the fans. If anything, you can argue FIFA are trying to resolve a problem Qatar are refusing to acknowledge.

But FIFA are firmly at fault for the mess they've gotten themselves into.

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Yes, how laughable to change the start date of a season, when that already happens every time there is a World Cup. The season kicks off a week early and ends 2 weeks early every 4 years. I don't really understand why just because the World Cup isn't in the summer it somehow changes that we are capable of making similar adjustments in the other direction.


You've oversimplified this, and this is why your point is laughable. You haven't taken account of warming up pre-tournament.

Let's say the tournament is 3-4 weeks long. Then you have at least two weeks, possibly longer, for teams to acclimatise (particularly in that heat), play warm up friendlies etc.

They you'll have at least a week, probably longer after that for players to recover. They're not going to go straight back into a competitive league after a tiring World Cup.

So now all of a sudden, the leagues have to shift by at least 6-7 weeks. So it's not just a case of shifting one week.

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Considering you accuse me of being mixed up. You are stating that a season CANNOT be changed and also that the World Cup MUST be played in the Winter, it can't be both.


Re-read my argument. I don't say that at all. At which point do I say the season cannot be changed?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:53 pm 
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Because all I said was stick a week at the start as per normal the end the season at the end of June you said that comment around starting the season earlier were laughable!?

The World Cup would be playing until 2nd week of July. Why can't Domestic season change to end at the end of June?

The lower leagues would only lose the 4 weeks of the tournament as they should be able to play up to the start and resume immediately after. Previous seasons they have had to be finished by early May so they will probably be able to finish at relatively normal time since the World Cup will take place when 50% of their games are being called off for the weather anyway.

It's completely irrelevant that the temperatures in Qatar have been wildly over reported. Ranging from 29-48 not "in the 50s". These are identical temperatures to countries where millions of people spend their summer holidays and don't get in a fret about it.


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Isn't the real problem that The Blatter Bunch might have to hand back their ill-gotten loot? :roll:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:59 pm 
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lo36789 wrote:
The lower leagues would only lose the 4 weeks of the tournament as they should be able to play up to the start and resume immediately after.


And what about the higher leagues, which will contribute the most players?

As well as the 3-4 weeks for the tournament, the minimum 2 weeks prep and then recovery time after the tournament, you're looking at a minimum of 6-7 weeks disruption.

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It's completely irrelevant that the temperatures in Qatar have been wildly over reported. Ranging from 29-48 not "in the 50s". These are identical temperatures to countries where millions of people spend their summer holidays and don't get in a fret about it.


:roll: This isn't "going on holiday" though, so your point is, once again, laughable.

You really can't compare "going on holiday" to the world's biggest football tournament.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:12 pm 
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Darlogramps wrote:
As well as the 3-4 weeks for the tournament, the minimum 2 weeks prep and then recovery time after the tournament, you're looking at a minimum of 6-7 weeks disruption.


Yep course you are. The FA Cup Final was on 15th May in 2010, play it on June 30th and there is 6 weeks.

Of the Premier League teams that are affected 50% won't be after the first 2 weeks of the tournament. By the time you get to the final of Brazil/Germany/Spain then there is pretty limited impact on teams other than Chelsea.

Silly me I forgot that if you are visiting a hot country for a sporting tournament it will affect you more than if you are on holiday.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:48 pm 
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lo36789 wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
As well as the 3-4 weeks for the tournament, the minimum 2 weeks prep and then recovery time after the tournament, you're looking at a minimum of 6-7 weeks disruption.


Yep course you are. The FA Cup Final was on 15th May in 2010, play it on June 30th and there is 6 weeks.


And then what about the season after? Pre-season usually starts in late June/early July - so you're going to have players who are exhausted from playing two seasons back-to-back.

Okay, delay the start of the season, but you can't delay it by 6 weeks to give the usual recovery period.

So you're still going to have exhausted players. You really don't think things through. You'll just keep making your waffley argument up as you go along because you won't accept you're wrong on this.

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Of the Premier League teams that are affected 50% won't be after the first 2 weeks of the tournament. By the time you get to the final of Brazil/Germany/Spain then there is pretty limited impact on teams other than Chelsea.


I love how you make sweeping generalisations, based on nothing but figures you've plucked out of the air and state them as fact. Madness and moronic.

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Silly me I forgot that if you are visiting a hot country for a sporting tournament it will affect you more than if you are on holiday.


Tell that to the footballers playing and training in heat which, even by your own admission, reaches above 40C. But it's ok, Qatar have said they'll have air-conditioned stadiums. Untested stadiums which even the Qataris can't guarantee will work. Marvellous.

I'm banging my head against a brick wall here. You really won't listen to any argument that goes against your own.

Any semi-decent argument you make is buried beneath a mound of waffle and ill-thought out, over-simplistic nonsense. I give up - it's not worth it any more.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:34 am 
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Yes I am sure pre season in the season after a World Cup starts in late June considering the players are still at the World Cup until the 12th July!

You can't in one breathe remove my 50% unaffected and then claim that the World Cup impact more than that then in the next state that they are starting their preseason in June when the World Cup isn't even past the group stages at that point!

I've said if their air conditioned stadiums are fine the major "concern" has been for fans safety outside of the grounds. I agree that if the air conditioning is not working they Qatar have not met the terms of their agreement and as such are not entitled to the competition. To date I have seen no evidence to support this.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:21 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:36 am
Posts: 2530
Location: Milford Haven
Team Supported: Darlington
lo36789 wrote:
Yes I am sure pre season in the season after a World Cup starts in late June considering the players are still at the World Cup until the 12th July!

You can't in one breathe remove my 50% unaffected and then claim that the World Cup impact more than that then in the next state that they are starting their preseason in June when the World Cup isn't even past the group stages at that point!

I've said if their air conditioned stadiums are fine the major "concern" has been for fans safety outside of the grounds. I agree that if the air conditioning is not working they Qatar have not met the terms of their agreement and as such are not entitled to the competition. To date I have seen no evidence to support this.


And how much evidence have you seen that the air conditioning WILL work? :roll:

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