England Squad - World Cup 2014

[walshys_wingman_11]

No I said he offers nothing more than anyone else..... He went nearly a season without scoring a premier league goal at home ...

[lo36789]

No I said he offers nothing more than anyone else..... He went nearly a season without scoring a premier league goal at home ...

Suppose it's a good job we are playing in Brazil then?

[TSQuaker]

No I said he offers nothing more than anyone else..... He went nearly a season without scoring a premier league goal at home ...

How many times has he played as an out and out striker though?

[Spyman]

Wellbeck offers nothing to the team more than anyone else. Smalling and Rooney are the only two manure players I would have probably taken and smalling only gets in because we have poor options at right back. I would have took wickham for two reasons .. He will be a bit of the unknown to the opposition and mainly because he is in form. I would have only took players who are first choice for their teams and also in form so the likes of wilshire and Milner would not have made it either .

What more does Wickham offer than anyone else? Other than an easy ride for the opposition defenders?

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[walshys_wingman_11]

There is your problem then... If wellbeck never scored because he wasn't getting picked as a out and out striker then why pick him for that role ? As for wickham he offered enough to score at both the ethiad and Stamford bridge when his club needed him to. He also played a big role in keeping sheff wed up but the main reason is .....he is in a run of good form... Ie his player of the month award..

[DarloOnTheUp]

There is your problem then... If wellbeck never scored because he wasn't getting picked as a out and out striker then why pick him for that role ? As for wickham he offered enough to score at both the ethiad and Stamford bridge when his club needed him to. He also played a big role in keeping sheff wed up but the main reason is .....he is in a run of good form... Ie his player of the month award..

Welbeck's all-round play is excellent, he scored 9 league goals in 25 games despite not always being played as a striker (a ratio of about 1 goal every 2.5 games), and he has the potential to be a brilliant player if he improves his finishing a little.

And fuck form: pick players based on ability.

[walshys_wingman_11]

All professional players have the ability... It's just that the ones on form produce it and an off form player has less chance of producing it....

[DarloOnTheUp]

All professional players have the ability... It's just that the ones on form produce it and an off form player has less chance of producing it....

That is one of the most retarded things I've ever read on here. It was almost as bad as one of Darlobaz79's posts, and that's saying something.

[walshys_wingman_11]

I will take the double negative as a compliment thanks..

[DarloOnTheUp]

I will take the double negative as a compliment thanks..

You also don't seem to know what a double negative is.

[walshys_wingman_11]

Is that another one ?

[DarloOnTheUp]

Is that another one ?

No, and there wasn't one in my first post either, but it doesn't matter anyways: your post was still fucking stupid.

[Spyman]

All professional players have the ability... It's just that the ones on form produce it and an off form player has less chance of producing it....

And some professional players have a lot more ability than others. An average player like Wickham is far less likely to maintain a decent run of form against top opposition than an above average player like Wellbeck.

Or are you suggesting that an in form Wickham would be preferable to Lionel Messi too?

Besides, Wellbeck has been consistently good this season - certainly one of Man Utd's better performers giving the like of Bayern a tough time. Wickham had a good month. If Wellbeck had had a stinker of a season I could see where you were coming from, but he hasn't.

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[walshys_wingman_11]

Wickham is a different type of player to messi so I cant see your need to compare them... can I ask.. do you think Henderson was picked ahead of the likes of Cleverley because of ability or form ? (right choice btw)

[Spyman]

Wickham is a different type of player to messi so I cant see your need to compare them... can I ask.. do you think Henderson was picked ahead of the likes of Cleverley because of ability or form ? (right choice btw)

Wickham is also a different type of player to Wellbeck, which makes your original comparison all the more bizarre. If Wickham was to go in anyone's place it would be Lambert, but based on your usual opinions it is clear why you are singling out Wellbeck - you have an irrational hatred of Man Utd.

That's also why you've brought up Cleverley, who was rightly left out,and in reality was probably not in contention as the season wore on. He has had a stinking season, while Henderson has had a great season. Henderson is the better player and has shown it over the last year. If you'd asked me a year ago, I'd have said I thought Cleverley had a better chance of going, because a year ago Henderson looked half the player he does now and Cleverley was showing a lot of potential. In another 12 months, they might have swapped over again, or they might not.

If we're going to stick with your Man Utd obsession, Michael Carrick has shown his ability over a longer period than both of them, but Henderson has performed consistently better this season so deserves his place.

Ability and form go hand in hand - but consistently performing over a season is what an international manager will be looking at, not someone who has had a good month. Thankfully!

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[walshys_wingman_11]

no I mentioned Wellbeck because I don't think he is that good, I also mentioned Wilshire and Milner in my orginal post....does that mean I must hate Arsenal and Man City ? I also said that both Smalling and Rooney should go... who do they play for ? I mentioned Cleverley because its plain to see he is out of form and therefore not picked ahead of an in form Henderson. It has nothing to do with ability or showing potential ...it is rightly down to form.
Ask Sheff Wed fans if Wickham has only had a decent last month of the season.....
A few others in that squad are lucky to be going.. Wilshire for one. He certainly has the ability but has been out too long and ...therefore not in form and wont be because he will not be match fit.

[lo36789]

Ask Sheff Wed fans if Wickham has only had a decent last month of the season.....

Seriously?

Pretty sure Danny Ings should be going if that is what your argument is going to hinge upon?

Form is a good marker - but only at a comparative level. Danny Welbeck has demonstrated that he can perform well against Bayern Munich, Wickham did similar against Barnsley.

[BaronsCourtQuaker]

I would have said players are picked on a few things, ability, form, potential and history. Hence players like Beckham getting the nod when injured.

I can hear where your coming from Walshy but you picked the wrong example in Wickham. Form is very subjective, how long does it take for a player to be in or out of form a game, a month or a season. Form often is also dictated by ability. Wickham has never proved it in the top leagues but his two goals at a crucial stage of the season have people saying he is on form. Sturridge was being labeled out of form entering the last few weeks of the season having gone a few games without a goal, then bagged two in the final games and he is back in form. What im saying is Sturridge is judged much harder based on his greater ability.

Never is a international manager only going to pick on form alone for a World Cup, I can't think of anyone ever picked simply on a good last month of the season. I'd also argue that Henderson has shown much more than Cleverly has both this season and actually over his career. Cleverly is all based on potential and being at United, both of which are starting to wear off.

[Spyman]

So you mention Wellbeck because you don't think he is that good, despite having had a pretty good season and having performed pretty well for England for 2 years, but you say that a player who has spent most of the last 2 seasons struggling to get a game in a poor Premiership team, doing ok on loan in the lower divisions, before coming back and scoring two important goals is more worthy of a place based on form?

[DarloOnTheUp]

Form is such a stupidly vague term to the point that it is almost meaningless.

I can't believe I have to point this out but different players have different ability levels. Walshy makes it sound like every player has exactly the same ability and the only thing that differentiates them is this magical, mysterious "form". What a load of s***!!!

To use Walshy's example, Henderson is in ahead of Cleverley because Henderson's ABILITY has increased dramatically (probably due to more effort in training to improve his game), whereas Cleverley hasn't really improved at all, so his ABILITY isn't at a high enough level for him to consistently perform in the prem.

Quick, sacrifice a goat to the form god!!!

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[Spyman]

Form is such a stupidly vague term to the point that it is almost meaningless.

I can't believe I have to point this out but different players have different ability levels. Walshy makes it sound like every player has exactly the same ability and the only thing that differentiates them is this magical, mysterious "form". What a load of s***!!!

To use Walshy's example, Henderson is in ahead of Cleverley because Henderson's ABILITY has increased dramatically (probably due to more effort in training to improve his game), whereas Cleverley hasn't really improved at all, so his ABILITY isn't at a high enough level for him to consistently perform in the prem.

Quick, sacrifice a goat to the form god!!!

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Henderson has also had a good season because he's playing for a manager that has developed him, has played him to his strengths, and surrounded him with good players who are high on confidence and has largely used the same shape and personnel each week.

Cleverley, on the other hand, was in and out of a team, playing in different roles, surrounded by different players, every time he played. It is very difficult to settle into a consistent run of form when you're playing a different way every week.

All sort of factors come in to it, and the above doesn't neccessarily mean that Cleverley is now a bad player incapable of ever playing for England again - he might flourish under Van Gaal just as Henderson has under Rodgers, but an International manager will want to see this 'form' over a sustained period, not just in a couple of games. This is one of the reasons Wellbeck is in - he's shown that despite circumstances at his club not being ideal this season, he can still turn in good performances on a regular basis. He also offers us something that we can't really replicate from any of the others available which works in his favour. We don't have another player like him.

[Spyman]

http://sabotagetimes.com/football/why-s ... ny-welbeck

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[walshys_wingman_11]

I have never said anywhere that all players have the same ability, however I have said that all players have ability but they don't always have the form...
as for Ings instead of Wickham as suggested in a previous post... I don't see why not, he has certainly had a good season and I would have no complaints if he was in the squad.
Barons I agree with you about how the squads are picked, I just wish a manager was brave enough to do something different ..

[Spyman]

I have never said anywhere that all players have the same ability, however I have said that all players have ability but they don't always have the form...
as for Ings instead of Wickham as suggested in a previous post... I don't see why not, he has certainly had a good season and I would have no complaints if he was in the squad.
Barons I agree with you about how the squads are picked, I just wish a manager was brave enough to do something different ..

Something different like pick substandard players? Yeah, no idea why no manager in the world does that. Why on earth have Spain not had the guts to pick the bulk of their squad from Cordoba and Almeria, rather that bottling it and choosing all those Champions League regulars like Iniesta and Ramos?

I've only just picked up on your "you can't compare Wickham and Messi because they have a different style of play" comment, too - because yes, they're differing styles of play, rather than the gulf in class between them, is the main reason you wouldn't put them in the same bracket!

I'd love to hear more about what you think a brave manager would do differently to every other International manager, other than picking players from teams that either lose most of their games, or win games at a lower level!

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[walshys_wingman_11]

France mid 1990s had two of the most gifted players in world football in cantona and ginola and they got over looked for their national team by being brave enough to go with young players .... Didn't do them too bad did it ?

[Darlogramps]

France mid 1990s had two of the most gifted players in world football in cantona and ginola and they got over looked for their national team by being brave enough to go with young players .... Didn't do them too bad did it ?

That's bollocks.

They didn't "overlook" Cantona - he lost his place because he was banned after the kung-fu kick incident, and Zidane emerged in his place.

It wasn't "bravery", it was necessity. Get your facts straight.

Indeed, Cantona would have been France's captain at Euro 96 and World Cup 98. France had every intention of picking one of their most gifted players - which counters your assertion entirely.

And given Zidane was a special example, in being one of the world's best ever players, it's not really a comparison you can make with England in 2014, which is what you were implying.

[BaronsCourtQuaker]

I don't think there is need for Walshy bashing, its just opinions and the differing opinions are whats fun.

I think this year more than ever people were wanting for our "manager was brave enough to do something different" this is on the back of the South Africa debacle.

However what would you do differently, what is brave? the likes of Wickham, Ings are not brave there suicide. We have had Nugent, Rickets, Jenkinson, Shawcross, Frazer Campbell, Jay Boothroyde all given caps (in friendlies as they had had a bit of form) over the years yet often you can quickly see they are out of there depth, but because they are showing some signs of form you'd be brave and take them to the World Cup finals?

Personally i'm not one for all this "were not going to win it, so lets plan for 4 years chatter". Its the flaming World Cup finals, once every 4 years, the likelihood of you winning is always pretty limited, but you pick your best available squad and give it your all and see where it takes you. Genuinely I would be happy to see us get out of the group however once we do that, I would not be amazed to see us in the quarter finals then its just one game to the semi's.....

I really like the squad he has gone for, there are people in there i'm not convinced about but Roy seems to have tried to put a squad together that will gel and not actually gone for the bigger names (see France 1990 if you like). I think many of our ex managers and Harry (had the media pressure got's its way) would have had John Terry and Ashley Cole in their squads. I like the freshness of this group of players. Many have come through the ranks together, be it England youth, reserve team football and I have a feeling they all get along well, the young lads particularly and the United / Liverpool, North / South divide that was often spoken of has gone.

I'm really starting to look forward to the tournament, Spain v Holland on day two already looks a cracker.

[DarloOnTheUp]

I have never said anywhere that all players have the same ability, however I have said that all players have ability but they don't always have the form...
as for Ings instead of Wickham as suggested in a previous post... I don't see why not, he has certainly had a good season and I would have no complaints if he was in the squad.
Barons I agree with you about how the squads are picked, I just wish a manager was brave enough to do something different ..

Brave? You mean like picking the likes of Shaw, Barkley, Henderson, Sterling, Lallana, and Lambert? This is the bravest squad in years! It's also a very young side and that includes the man you hate: Welbeck (only 23). You have to have some experience in there. So we have a young side, with a number of brave choices; what exactly are you complaining about?

I agree that Wickham could have been picked but it would always have been ahead of Lambert, not Welbeck, because Wickham and Lambert are both target man type players. And Lambert is an excellent choice as well so I'm happy, and he also falls into your category of a "brave choice" so why are you crying about this one decision? Wickham is young and will have his chance if he keeps performing into next season.

[lo36789]

as for Ings instead of Wickham as suggested in a previous post... I don't see why not, he has certainly had a good season and I would have no complaints if he was in the squad.

Sorry but all credibility went with that. James Walshaw scored another 30 odd goals this season and Danny Johnson got more than 40 at Guisborough, they're both in form should they be on the plane? Maybe if Mike Bassett was England manager.

Welbeck has regularly shown himself to be dangerous against some of the best teams in world football.

Barons I agree with you about how the squads are picked, I just wish a manager was brave enough to do something different ..

It has been classed as a brave selection. Fair enough Terry couldn't go as he had retired but Cole and Michael Carrick would have been obvious choices. Even Andy Carroll or Jermain Defoe could have been the safe bet over Rickie Lambert.

For what it is worth. I think Connor Wickham will come good, but he hasn't shown enough yet.

[Darlogramps]

as for Ings instead of Wickham as suggested in a previous post... I don't see why not, he has certainly had a good season and I would have no complaints if he was in the squad.

Sorry but all credibility went with that. James Walshaw scored another 30 odd goals this season and Danny Johnson got more than 40 at Guisborough, they're both in form should they be on the plane? Maybe if Mike Bassett was England manager.

To be fair lo, you're being ridiculous here.

There's a big difference between Ings, who's had a good season for a side who've just been promoted to the Premier League, and Walshaw/Johnson, who are non-league players.

It's a poor exaggeration that you've made.

That said, I wouldn't take Ings just on the basis of one season.