World Cup

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Re: World Cup

Post by Fatty eats roadkill » Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:22 am

Wooah, calm down gramps. It's not just us lefties who equate wages with value. I do believe the capitalist system is highly geared towards that model! ;)
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Re: World Cup

Post by lo36789 » Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:35 am

Darlogramps wrote:And again, you've been far too simplistic looking at it in population terms. If that was the case, China should be dominating every sport. They don't, because sport doesn't work like that.
Whilst I agree in a sense. I was left thinking after Uruguay game that it is quite impressive that for a population of 3.5million to produce so many decent footballers.

There are lots of other factors to it clearly, prominence of different sports amongst them, but still.

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Re: World Cup

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:55 pm

Up to the point that Costa Rica beat Italy I thought I was immune to the pain!

But now I'm feeling pretty pissed off about our early exit. The world's having a party and we have to come home, but I don't think it's beneficial to chase after Hodgson or the players. They all tried, but wow! Didn't Italy and Uruguay give it everything and take mega delight in beating us.

We were in a tough group - played OK in two hard games, and for want of a bit more luck would have got something from them.

I think we most of all lack a bit of muscle, a bit of guile, a bit of nastiness, but we lack these type of players now.
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TSQuaker
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Re: World Cup

Post by TSQuaker » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:39 pm

The Big Dawg wrote:
TSQuaker wrote:There is a reason why he plays in a successful club side. Nothing do with me wanking over the Premier League :lol:
He was a promising youngster who was bought buy a manager who bought more than his fair share of duds - don't know what point you're trying to make with this one?
His goalscoring record is fantastic, for both club and country. I'm not sure what you fail to see in him?
His goal scoring record against lesser teams is excellent, as you'd expect from a forward of his reputation playing in a side of supposed superstars. His goal scoring record and performances against big teams in big games is woeful.

Put down The Sun and think for yourself.
Woeful? I take it you haven't seen many of his performances against some of those bigger teams then?

Put down The Sun? Excellent argument. Well done :clap:
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Re: World Cup

Post by The Big Dawg » Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:22 pm

TSQuaker wrote:
The Big Dawg wrote:
TSQuaker wrote:There is a reason why he plays in a successful club side. Nothing do with me wanking over the Premier League :lol:
He was a promising youngster who was bought buy a manager who bought more than his fair share of duds - don't know what point you're trying to make with this one?
His goalscoring record is fantastic, for both club and country. I'm not sure what you fail to see in him?
His goal scoring record against lesser teams is excellent, as you'd expect from a forward of his reputation playing in a side of supposed superstars. His goal scoring record and performances against big teams in big games is woeful.

Put down The Sun and think for yourself.
Woeful? I take it you haven't seen many of his performances against some of those bigger teams then?

Put down The Sun? Excellent argument. Well done :clap:
I take it from that generic, vague response you don't actually have a proper comeback to anything I said?
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Re: World Cup

Post by lo36789 » Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:27 pm

I reckon if an England manager did what Joachim Low has done he would be slated.

They have the best right back in the world (Lahm) playing centre midfield despite having Draxler and Schweinsteiger on the bench. That has left him with 4 centre backs playing in defence (Boateng, Mertesacker, Hummels, Howedes).

Talk about picking your best XI and fitting them into a team! Jesus we've had Darren Anderton & Trevor Sinclair being picked just to fit a formation!

Also has anybody else worked out how Thomas Müller wears his socks? I can only assume he asks for a child's size, either that or they must be pretty loose in his boots!

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Re: World Cup

Post by TSQuaker » Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:58 pm

It's hard to argue with someone who can't (or won't) accept the facts. Rooney has scored goals against some of the best teams in the world. His performances against the better sides are far from woeful.
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Re: World Cup

Post by The Big Dawg » Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:31 pm

Got any stats to back up that Sun Super Goals with Frank Lampard ing-er-land hyperbole?
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Re: World Cup

Post by lo36789 » Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:46 am

The Big Dawg wrote:Got any stats to back up that Sun Super Goals with Frank Lampard ing-er-land hyperbole?
Sorry, whilst Rooney hasn't been the talisman that most expected him to be by this point when he broke on to the scene at 16/17 he has still sustained a career and won numerous league titles and the champions league with Manchester United.

He is not playing for United out of sympathy. The reason he has managed to get a £300k per week contract is down to his strong negotiating position. United want to keep him and other teams wanted him, this is down to his past performances.

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Re: World Cup

Post by BaronsCourtQuaker » Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:52 am

Well have to say despite not really holding out much hope entering the tournament I managed to get a little over excited and wanted more.

However it was not a terrible showing and I still think we deserved more for our efforts. I think two score draws would have been fair results for us and you could argue we could have had a little more.

I stand by Roy, he has done what most people wanted, blooded the youngsters and given opportunities to players that many others would have overlooked. He also carries himself well on the international stage. However he can only work with what he has so can only achieve so much.

Its a very deflating feeling going out like this, and crazy that so much is judged on such little time ie 2 games. It will be interesting to see if we have a performance left in us for the Costa Rica game and if we are to get 3 points. Hoe people would have felt had we gone out with 1 win from 3 games, but in another order that put us out only after the final game.

I need to find my enthusiasm for the rest of the tournament as it really has been great viewing so far.

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Re: World Cup

Post by princes town » Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:40 am

BaronsCourtQuaker wrote:
I stand by Roy, he has done what most people wanted, blooded the youngsters and given opportunities to players that many others would have overlooked. He also carries himself well on the international stage. However he can only work with what he has so can only achieve so much.
Up to the last sentence I agree. But in the end he has massive resources to play with. These are players who play regularly in the premier league and he doesn't appear to be able to maximise value. I read the Wikipedia review of Hodgson last night and there is a clear pattern emerging. Brilliant when managing small clubs/international teams but seemingly unable to handle big clubs/international teams. I'm not sure if this is because he can't motivate big time charlies or what but the evidence is there.

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Re: World Cup

Post by Fatty eats roadkill » Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:36 am

Does anyone really care about it though? Probably only those who went to Brazil.

As for Rooney he gets what he gets cos he sells shirts! The press built him up and the kids believed it. Maybe hes had one granny prossie too many and lost his fire. I dunno?
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Re: World Cup

Post by al_quaker » Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:51 am

princes town wrote:
BaronsCourtQuaker wrote:
I stand by Roy, he has done what most people wanted, blooded the youngsters and given opportunities to players that many others would have overlooked. He also carries himself well on the international stage. However he can only work with what he has so can only achieve so much.
Up to the last sentence I agree. But in the end he has massive resources to play with. These are players who play regularly in the premier league and he doesn't appear to be able to maximise value. I read the Wikipedia review of Hodgson last night and there is a clear pattern emerging. Brilliant when managing small clubs/international teams but seemingly unable to handle big clubs/international teams. I'm not sure if this is because he can't motivate big time charlies or what but the evidence is there.
We lost narrowly to two teams who are better than us. Im not sure what these massive resources hodgson has to play with are? A very good keeper, a shaky defence, and lots of promising, but still very young attacking players. We currently have nobody of the class of suarez or pirlo, and that's ultimately what's made the difference in the two games. I'm not sure what hodgson can do to change that? I the players aren't there, an international manager can't change that.

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Re: World Cup

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:01 am

Fatty eats roadkill wrote: A very good keeper, a shaky defence, and lots of promising, but still very young attacking players.
This set me off thinking..............The media mantra has all been about looking to the future and giving youth a run out etc.

But what if we'd gone out to Brazil old skool??

JUST FOR FUN - Crouch or Carroll up front. Bring back Terry/Cole/ play Lampard, and bring more muscle into midfield. Then utilise the tactics of attrition, breaking up play, long ball, getting stuck in. Tony Pullis as assistant coach anyone??

A ridiculous idea I know and a team that looks no further forward than one week ahead, but we might well have got a point, maybe 2.
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Re: World Cup

Post by BaronsCourtQuaker » Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:10 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:This set me off thinking..............The media mantra has all been about looking to the future and giving youth a run out etc.

But what if we'd gone out to Brazil old skool??

JUST FOR FUN - Crouch or Carroll up front. Bring back Terry/Cole/ play Lampard, and bring more muscle into midfield. Then utilise the tactics of attrition, breaking up play, long ball, getting stuck in. Tony Pullis as assistant coach anyone??

A ridiculous idea I know and a team that looks no further forward than one week ahead, but we might well have got a point, maybe 2.
Funnily enough I think this notion is whats caused us issues we are torn between looking to the future and also giving it our best

On one hand its the World Cup the biggest of them all. So pick your best players and do all you can to win it/progress as far as you can. I would hazard a guess that with Cole & Terry in the back 4 we would not have shipped 4 goals.

On the flipside there is also a certain amount of looking to better our chances and also for me a degree of going about it the right way. Over the past season Baines earned his chance v Cole, and Terry is a horrible person who the public don't like to see representing our country.

As a result we seem to pick a strange balance, Gerrard and Rooney are OK people to represent us yet Terry is not? they all have 'istory' We then pluck for youth over old but don't give it a full chance, Barclay, Shaw, Llanna ect

Ultimately though were not that good, we have not been for some time, its just so bloody frustrating, and perhaps more frustrating is having the likes of Danny Mills plotting our route back to the top.

Football is a game of fine margins, and despite losing 2 games compared to 2010 we were much closer to having the margins in our favor than not.
princes town wrote:Up to the last sentence I agree. But in the end he has massive resources to play with. These are players who play regularly in the premier league and he doesn't appear to be able to maximise value. I read the Wikipedia review of Hodgson last night and there is a clear pattern emerging. Brilliant when managing small clubs/international teams but seemingly unable to handle big clubs/international teams. I'm not sure if this is because he can't motivate big time charlies or what but the evidence is there.
I hear you and it does amaze me when you see some of the great performances from teams that do not have the same resources and quality that we do, there must be something in the ability of the coach. Would Mourinho get more from the same players, yes i think he would.

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Re: World Cup

Post by lo36789 » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:29 pm

I follow Scott Wilson on twitter, I must have picked him up at some point when our crisis was going on. I read that "Looking at the Netherlands starting line-up, they're leaving themselves in very real danger of a second round game against Brazil". As a result I was expecting that they had dropped a load of players/rested some.

I don't really see that they have taken that many risks. Van Persie is out (but not on the bench so I am not sure what is up there!?). They are playing Wijnaldum instead of De Guzman (but personally Wijnaldum is a better player) and they have stuck Dirk Kuyt on the wing. I imagine this is a deliberate ploy to quell the Chile attack.

Am I missing something or is this a case of a reporter that doesn't recognise the household names and sees no Van Persie missing so makes a broad brush statement?

I mean they may still lose, but I don't see that van Gaal has necessarily put out a risky starting line up?

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Re: World Cup

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:56 pm

I don't think Chile or Holland are afraid of Brazil in a footballing way - It's just that Brazil seem to get a bit of "luck" with the referees :thumbdown:
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Re: World Cup

Post by al_quaker » Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:12 pm

Van persie is suspended.

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Re: World Cup

Post by lo36789 » Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:13 pm

al_quaker wrote:Van persie is suspended.
So effectively NL havn't really risked anything. They have put out as good a lineup as they could for this actual game.

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Re: World Cup

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:49 pm

Neymar living up to his hype tonight.

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Re: World Cup

Post by AndyPark » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:57 pm

What team would you put out for the England game tomorrow? As we've nothing to play for.

I'd go for:

Hart,
Shaw, Smalling, Cahill, Johnson,
Milner, Lampard, Barkley, Sterling,
Lambert/Rooney, Sturridge.

Inexperienced I know, but I feel we should be giving some of the team a chance to perform for a meaningless game.

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Re: World Cup

Post by comeondarlo » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:04 pm

AndyPark wrote:What team would you put out for the England game tomorrow? As we've nothing to play for.

I'd go for:

Hart,
Shaw, Smalling, Cahill, Johnson,
Milner, Lampard, Barkley, Sterling,
Lambert/Rooney, Sturridge.

Inexperienced I know, but I feel we should be giving some of the team a chance to perform for a meaningless game.
I think The Ox (if fit) has to play, IMO he is the future of English football.

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Re: World Cup

Post by lo36789 » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:08 pm

comeondarlo wrote:I think The Ox (if fit) has to play, IMO he is the future of English football.
I would like to see him play but at the same time I can't see him being 100%.

If he isn't 100% there doesn't seem much point risking him in this game. If he gets another knock then it'll just really annoy Arsene, actually that does actually sound quite tempting let's do that.

No in seriousness would rather he were fighting fit for the new Premier League season so he can get games under his belt for Arsenal.

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Re: World Cup

Post by AndyPark » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:13 pm

comeondarlo wrote:I think The Ox (if fit) has to play, IMO he is the future of English football.
Think he might get last 20/30 minutes. Can't see him completing a full game so soon after injury.

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Re: World Cup

Post by Spyman » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:37 pm

DarloOnTheUp wrote:Neymar living up to his hype tonight.
Agreed. Superb tonight.

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On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

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Re: World Cup

Post by Spyman » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:41 pm

I've been out of the country for a few days but had the pleasure of watching us lose to Suarez in a bar in Berlin.

Terrible performance. Rooney was comfortably our best player, Sterling and Sturridge were a huge let down compared to their Italy performance. They're still going, but they (Sturridge in particular) need to inject some consistency at International level - hopefully they can perform in the Euro qualifiers and establish themselves properly as International footballers.

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On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

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Re: World Cup

Post by princes town » Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:10 am

al_quaker wrote:
princes town wrote:
BaronsCourtQuaker wrote:
I stand by Roy, he has done what most people wanted, blooded the youngsters and given opportunities to players that many others would have overlooked. He also carries himself well on the international stage. However he can only work with what he has so can only achieve so much.
Up to the last sentence I agree. But in the end he has massive resources to play with. These are players who play regularly in the premier league and he doesn't appear to be able to maximise value. I read the Wikipedia review of Hodgson last night and there is a clear pattern emerging. Brilliant when managing small clubs/international teams but seemingly unable to handle big clubs/international teams. I'm not sure if this is because he can't motivate big time charlies or what but the evidence is there.
We lost narrowly to two teams who are better than us. Im not sure what these massive resources hodgson has to play with are? A very good keeper, a shaky defence, and lots of promising, but still very young attacking players. We currently have nobody of the class of suarez or pirlo, and that's ultimately what's made the difference in the two games. I'm not sure what hodgson can do to change that? I the players aren't there, an international manager can't change that.

Massive resources = players on fantastic wages. If Hodgson is beyond reproach, then there is seomething seriously wrong with the remuneration structure for Premier league players. Hodgson also gets £3.5 million and there has to be some performance threshold on which this payment is made. Finishing behind Costa Rica is enough evidence for me that he hasn't delivered. Hazy references to the future are nothing better than the 'golden generation' hype I heard a decade ago. If Hodgson can't do anything useful with this group then perhaps we should get a less high profile manager on a more economic salary. It is money for old rope as far as I am concerned whichever way you look at it and is a piss take on the fans.

As for rooney, the best game I saw him play last season was in a withdrawn midfield role funnily enough. He is more of a scholes to me than an out and out striker. Rather Sturridge up front than anybody perhaps with Lambert as I don't think we can pass through a defence. Whatever happened to proper wingers? Is 4-4-2 so bad?

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Re: World Cup

Post by lo36789 » Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:32 am

princes town wrote:As for rooney, the best game I saw him play last season was in a withdrawn midfield role funnily enough. He is more of a scholes to me than an out and out striker. Rather Sturridge up front than anybody perhaps with Lambert as I don't think we can pass through a defence. Whatever happened to proper wingers? Is 4-4-2 so bad?
I don't think it would take long for that not to work.

I am a bit confused over who you would play. 4-4-2.

Hart
Johnson, Cahill, Jagielka, Baines (really that's what we have available?)
RM?, Rooney, CM?, LM?
Lambert, Sturridge.

Who do we have that is a right midfielder, or a left midfielder for that matter and who plays in centre midfield next to Rooney. Please don't say Ross Barkley because our already poor defence would be hung out to dry.

If anything I'd be going 3-5-2. Bung another centre half alongside Jags and Cahill, Jones probably. At left wing back I obviously wouldn't really have Sterling (as I put before) I would have Baines or Shaw. Then at right-wing back Johnson but potentially a Walcott or an Ox (we should have enough cover through the middle).

In centre midfield I'd play Gerrard deeper with Henderson and Wilshere/Barkley. Then up front you have Rooney and Sturridge. If you ordered England best XI then you can't fit them all into a team because our top 15 players are attackers/midfielders.

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Re: World Cup

Post by The Big Dawg » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:33 pm

princes town wrote: Massive resources = players on fantastic wages. If Hodgson is beyond reproach, then there is seomething seriously wrong with the remuneration structure for Premier league players.
What, you think Premier League football players might be overpaid? Fuck me, you should go to the press with that one, I think you're on to something.

Not that it has much to do with English players consistent under performance at International Competitions, which is far more indicative of them not actually being as good as we're repeatedly told they are because they happen to all play in our over hyped and media saturated domestic league.
Hodgson also gets £3.5 million and there has to be some performance threshold on which this payment is made. Finishing behind Costa Rica is enough evidence for me that he hasn't delivered.
Costa Rica who also defeated and are likely to finish above Italy and Uruguay too? Another sign of the ingrained arrogance/stupidity/ignorance of the average English football fan. Just because you don't know much about Costa Rica or their players, it doesn't automatically make them s***, the same way as just because our players are all household names who play in our massively hyped premier league doesn't meant they'll automatically be any good playing as an international side.
Hazy references to the future are nothing better than the 'golden generation' hype I heard a decade ago. If Hodgson can't do anything useful with this group then perhaps we should get a less high profile manager on a more economic salary. It is money for old rope as far as I am concerned whichever way you look at it and is a piss take on the fans.
Hodgson earns significantly less than Sven or Cappello - who do you think would do any better who would accept the job for less? Some 'bright up and come-er' no doubt would take it (I believe lower league officianado lo12345 once hilariously suggested Eddie Howe for the England job on here) but they'd only get slaughtered for 'not being up to it' by mouth breathers like you as soon as results didn't miraculously go through the roof.

As for you not liking an ethos of looking to the future, it's just further proof of your abject lack of understanding of....well, anything really. We've taken (give or take) the same core pool of players to the last 3 tournaments we've got to the finals of, and have looked almost universally average (at best). Yet the one time an England manager says enough is enough and starts blooding England's future stars on a stage they have to get to grips with (and personally I think Hodgson should have been more savage), mugs like you start crying about it being no better than the guaranteed failure we were used to with the old guard. It beggars belief.

Look at our traditional rivals, and the European country whose footballing culture and ethos most closely match ours - Germany. They recognised they had an ageing and under performing square in the early-mid 2000s (post WC 2002), but had the bottle to assemble an almost entirely new squad prior to WC 2006, knowing they might not do much but it would be better in the long run. Look how thats panned out - they consistently out perform us, and are probably over a decade ahead of where we are in terms of mounting serious challenges on the biggest stage.
As for rooney, the best game I saw him play last season was in a withdrawn midfield role funnily enough. He is more of a scholes to me than an out and out striker. Rather Sturridge up front than anybody perhaps with Lambert as I don't think we can pass through a defence. Whatever happened to proper wingers? Is 4-4-2 so bad?
Rooney Rooney blah blah - it doesnt matter where you play him, so long as he's inexplicably an automatic name on the England team sheet he'll do fuck all at the big tournaments. I'll await the usual responses along the lines of 'b b b but he score 16 penalties against Stoke and Norwich last season' etc
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Re: World Cup

Post by lo36789 » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:52 pm

The Big Dawg wrote:I believe lower league officianado lo12345 once hilariously suggested Eddie Howe for the England job on here
Did I say that or did I say he could be a future England manager. I think I suggested him Liverpool could take a gamble on him - you are probably right that would have been too big a step.

I must add this was all before he got homesick and went back to Bournemouth. He hasn't exactly harmed his reputation last year.

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