This Rooney Rule farce
This Rooney Rule farce
I really am struggling to think of an idea that's more ridiculous than the above. What an absolute waste of time such a ruling would be.
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Re: This Rooney Rule farce
I don't know where I stand on it. The stats don't look good, for the percentage of black players we have there are a staggering low number of black managers.
I find it difficult to comprehend what would go through a chairman's mind to not choose the best candidate?
I personally find the 'focus women/feminist' stuff quite aggressive, in the same way I find Jason Roberts and Sol Campbell when they talk on racism. It is probably quite easy as a white male to dismiss that it isn't necessary, that the cream to rise to the top, but maybe I am just naive.
I would suggest that focussing on non league may be a better approach. Maybe it is just me, but all the reports seem to be around not getting interviews at league clubs. I don't believe there are that many white managers that just get interviews without at least either a) some managerial experience at more obscure clubs or b) having been at least an assistant manager previously.
I find it difficult to comprehend what would go through a chairman's mind to not choose the best candidate?
I personally find the 'focus women/feminist' stuff quite aggressive, in the same way I find Jason Roberts and Sol Campbell when they talk on racism. It is probably quite easy as a white male to dismiss that it isn't necessary, that the cream to rise to the top, but maybe I am just naive.
I would suggest that focussing on non league may be a better approach. Maybe it is just me, but all the reports seem to be around not getting interviews at league clubs. I don't believe there are that many white managers that just get interviews without at least either a) some managerial experience at more obscure clubs or b) having been at least an assistant manager previously.
Re: This Rooney Rule farce
I find it especially hard to believe it would have any real impact when a growing number of clubs are owned by multi-millionaires, many of whom are from all over the world.
Yes it is surprising that only 2 of 92 clubs in the top 4 tiers are managed by black men. Maybe it's naive to think it's not down to racism. I'd like to know that stats on the number of aspirational black managers out there though - what percentage of applications are coming in compared to other ethnicities?
It could be a generational thing. The top jobs will tend to go to experienced managers who have had years of success. These will be the guys in their late 50s, and perhaps from the generation before the influx of players from all over the world and the increase in multi-culturalism in the game. I suspect in 20 years time we'll see a very different demographic.
I remember when Paul Ince was given a Premiership job having successfully battled relegation from League 2 and having got someone else's squad promoted from League 2. Much more experienced and successful managers who hadn't played for some of the biggest teams in Europe wouldn't have been afforded the same opportunity with the same managerial experience - black or white.
Yes it is surprising that only 2 of 92 clubs in the top 4 tiers are managed by black men. Maybe it's naive to think it's not down to racism. I'd like to know that stats on the number of aspirational black managers out there though - what percentage of applications are coming in compared to other ethnicities?
It could be a generational thing. The top jobs will tend to go to experienced managers who have had years of success. These will be the guys in their late 50s, and perhaps from the generation before the influx of players from all over the world and the increase in multi-culturalism in the game. I suspect in 20 years time we'll see a very different demographic.
I remember when Paul Ince was given a Premiership job having successfully battled relegation from League 2 and having got someone else's squad promoted from League 2. Much more experienced and successful managers who hadn't played for some of the biggest teams in Europe wouldn't have been afforded the same opportunity with the same managerial experience - black or white.
On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.
We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.
Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.
DC
Re: This Rooney Rule farce
It's a ludicrous idea. If Jose Mourinho left Chelsea and the only black applicant was Sol Campbell, would Campbell really go into that interview believing he had a realistic chance of getting the job?
I also don't understand why it seemingly only concerns managers. What about physios or tea ladies? Where does it end?
I also don't understand why it seemingly only concerns managers. What about physios or tea ladies? Where does it end?
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Re: This Rooney Rule farce
I tell you what really doesn't help. Sol Campbell and the complete and utter drivel that he spouts on a regular basis:
'Get rid of Gary Neville and get me in instead,' he said. 'I've done all the badges.'
'But the career I have had should warrant me getting a job.'
'But I was getting better and better. I became one of the best defenders in the world and then the best defender in the world and captain of my domestic side. But the better you get the further away you get (from the England captaincy). To me it's not right. 'You conduct yourself in a proper way, in a proper manner, not falling out of night clubs and things like that'
'Get rid of Gary Neville and get me in instead,' he said. 'I've done all the badges.'
'But the career I have had should warrant me getting a job.'
'But I was getting better and better. I became one of the best defenders in the world and then the best defender in the world and captain of my domestic side. But the better you get the further away you get (from the England captaincy). To me it's not right. 'You conduct yourself in a proper way, in a proper manner, not falling out of night clubs and things like that'
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- Darlo will
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Re: This Rooney Rule farce
One point that no one seems to make, and i think is quite important is the following:
Almost all managers played the professional game earlier in their careers. At the time the current generation of managers were playing, there were very few black players. The question is then, where do people expect good black managers to come from? it is my opinion that, given another 5-10 years there will be many more black managers in the football league, simply because there will be many more black players retiring and entering management.
I may be wrong but think its a good point to make
Almost all managers played the professional game earlier in their careers. At the time the current generation of managers were playing, there were very few black players. The question is then, where do people expect good black managers to come from? it is my opinion that, given another 5-10 years there will be many more black managers in the football league, simply because there will be many more black players retiring and entering management.
I may be wrong but think its a good point to make
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- theoriginalfatcat
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Re: This Rooney Rule farce
A football chairman will employ the person they believe will get the best results.
Therefore they would have no qualms about giving the job to a green skinned space alien - if said green skinned space alien's "points to games played" stats stood up to scrutiny.
Therefore they would have no qualms about giving the job to a green skinned space alien - if said green skinned space alien's "points to games played" stats stood up to scrutiny.
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Feethams the Panda. 28 Jan 2012.
Now extinct!
Re: This Rooney Rule farce
I had this conversation at the weekend, and basically, Campbell has undone his entire argument by putting himself alongside Gary Neville.TSQuaker wrote:I tell you what really doesn't help. Sol Campbell and the complete and utter drivel that he spouts on a regular basis:
'Get rid of Gary Neville and get me in instead,' he said. 'I've done all the badges.'
'But the career I have had should warrant me getting a job.'
'But I was getting better and better. I became one of the best defenders in the world and then the best defender in the world and captain of my domestic side. But the better you get the further away you get (from the England captaincy). To me it's not right. 'You conduct yourself in a proper way, in a proper manner, not falling out of night clubs and things like that'
Campbell and Neville basically played in the same period for club and country. Not a lot to call between them internationally, bit Neville achieved a lot more for his club and has built a reputation as a pundit.
If Campbell had compared himself to Southgate perhaps, or John Ferry if he ever moved in to management, fair enough. Bit it seems Campbell was far more concerned with milking Portsmouth and Notts Co for every penny rather than fulfilling his playing days at the highest level he could like Neville did.
On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.
We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.
Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.
DC
Re: This Rooney Rule farce
Good point. Glad nobody made it earlier in the thread.Darlo will wrote:One point that no one seems to make, and i think is quite important is the following:
Almost all managers played the professional game earlier in their careers. At the time the current generation of managers were playing, there were very few black players. The question is then, where do people expect good black managers to come from? it is my opinion that, given another 5-10 years there will be many more black managers in the football league, simply because there will be many more black players retiring and entering management.
I may be wrong but think its a good point to make
On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.
We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.
Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.
DC
- Darlo will
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Re: This Rooney Rule farce
I know right! You must have posted while I was writing that out.Spyman wrote:Good point. Glad nobody made it earlier in the thread.Darlo will wrote:One point that no one seems to make, and i think is quite important is the following:
Almost all managers played the professional game earlier in their careers. At the time the current generation of managers were playing, there were very few black players. The question is then, where do people expect good black managers to come from? it is my opinion that, given another 5-10 years there will be many more black managers in the football league, simply because there will be many more black players retiring and entering management.
I may be wrong but think its a good point to make
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- DarloOnTheUp
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Re: This Rooney Rule farce
I personally think on a personal level that personally in my own opinion and nobody else's that it's a generational thing and in 5-10-20 years time we'll see more black managers because of reasons.
In before anyone else.
In before anyone else.
- Geordie Quaker
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Re: This Rooney Rule farce
Whilst black people may be under-represented in management terms, I would imagine (without the stats in front of me) that the same group are over-represented in playing terms.
Maybe there should also be a 'Wayne Rooney rule' to ensure white players get sufficient opportunities for playing contracts.
*posts same message on the Daily Mail website*
Maybe there should also be a 'Wayne Rooney rule' to ensure white players get sufficient opportunities for playing contracts.
*posts same message on the Daily Mail website*
Re: This Rooney Rule farce
That's a bit too tame for the Daily Mail GQGeordie Quaker wrote:Whilst black people may be under-represented in management terms, I would imagine (without the stats in front of me) that the same group are over-represented in playing terms.
Maybe there should also be a 'Wayne Rooney rule' to ensure white players get sufficient opportunities for playing contracts.
*posts same message on the Daily Mail website*
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Re: This Rooney Rule farce
Quite a long article on the rule here.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/29685485
I can't see any chairmen not interviewing candidates who will get them the best results, would people seriously appoint a lesser person if he where white, I just can't get my head around that.
The article is in parts interesting, the number of black head coaches compared to after the rule surprises me. Yet drawing comparisons with the English Leagues is hard as i think its safe to safe that the US have historically had a harder time dealing with race relations than we have.
I don't see it as a bad thing if introduced but I cant help think it will simply bring the issue higher on the agenda that may then have a placebo type effect rather than people sitting there thinking "wow why didn't we hire Paul Ince" will it not simply lead to a quota on candidates.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/29685485
I can't see any chairmen not interviewing candidates who will get them the best results, would people seriously appoint a lesser person if he where white, I just can't get my head around that.
The article is in parts interesting, the number of black head coaches compared to after the rule surprises me. Yet drawing comparisons with the English Leagues is hard as i think its safe to safe that the US have historically had a harder time dealing with race relations than we have.
I don't see it as a bad thing if introduced but I cant help think it will simply bring the issue higher on the agenda that may then have a placebo type effect rather than people sitting there thinking "wow why didn't we hire Paul Ince" will it not simply lead to a quota on candidates.
Re: This Rooney Rule farce
I agree - now if Jose Mourinho was black, and he was beaten to the Chelsea job by someone like Steve Lomas then I think there could be a case.
It's just that there are more successful white managers than there are black. There is nothing racist in that whatsoever.
It wouldn't bother me if we appointed a black, homosexual, religious stamp collector if he managed to get results.
It's just that there are more successful white managers than there are black. There is nothing racist in that whatsoever.
It wouldn't bother me if we appointed a black, homosexual, religious stamp collector if he managed to get results.
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Re: This Rooney Rule farce
You have to draw the line at stamp collectors no?
A little like lo said earlier, im not sure if its because I am middle aged and white that im not sensitive to this, but just can't see it being like the US here. There are teams owned by the same family for 90 odd years in the NFL where I presume prejudices have possibly been passed down.
A little like lo said earlier, im not sure if its because I am middle aged and white that im not sensitive to this, but just can't see it being like the US here. There are teams owned by the same family for 90 odd years in the NFL where I presume prejudices have possibly been passed down.
Re: This Rooney Rule farce
Talking about Portsmouth, there was a game live on Sky a couple of years ago when they played at Villa. Portsmouth had ONE white player in the team and even he was foreign!! Didn't hear Campbell complaining that day!Spyman wrote: If Campbell had compared himself to Southgate perhaps, or John Ferry if he ever moved in to management, fair enough. Bit it seems Campbell was far more concerned with milking Portsmouth and Notts Co for every penny rather than fulfilling his playing days at the highest level he could like Neville did.
Re: This Rooney Rule farce
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29976832
Institutional discrimination in football eh!
When will it end?
Institutional discrimination in football eh!
When will it end?
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Re: This Rooney Rule farce
They're making causal links where none necessarily exist.
The sparsity of black managers is definitely a fact, but to suggest it's because of racism is creating a causal link where there isn't necessarily one in existence.
Stats showing a lack of black managers prove that there is a lack of black managers, and that's it. Anything more is an assumption.
The sparsity of black managers is definitely a fact, but to suggest it's because of racism is creating a causal link where there isn't necessarily one in existence.
Stats showing a lack of black managers prove that there is a lack of black managers, and that's it. Anything more is an assumption.
Re: This Rooney Rule farce
I saw an article earlier that mentioned that Paul Ince and Chris Houghton weren't included as they are qualified but out of work.
Now just out of interested to know how many qualified white managers are out of work. I'd be interested to know proportionally how many BME managers are out of work to in work compared with their white counterparts.
I have no idea what it would show but all the articles dont make any reference to the stats on the ethnicity of those eligible for roles.
Now just out of interested to know how many qualified white managers are out of work. I'd be interested to know proportionally how many BME managers are out of work to in work compared with their white counterparts.
I have no idea what it would show but all the articles dont make any reference to the stats on the ethnicity of those eligible for roles.
Re: This Rooney Rule farce
There are zero white managers out of work, the same as the number of black managers out of work.lo36789 wrote:I saw an article earlier that mentioned that Paul Ince and Chris Houghton weren't included as they are qualified but out of work.
Now just out of interested to know how many qualified white managers are out of work. I'd be interested to know proportionally how many BME managers are out of work to in work compared with their white counterparts.
I have no idea what it would show but all the articles dont make any reference to the stats on the ethnicity of those eligible for roles.
On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.
We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.
Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.
DC
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Re: This Rooney Rule farce
I was listening to the Sunday Supplement (from Sky) yesterday and (i can think who was making the point) that the Rooney Rule is a good thing but hard to put into immediate practice for the Premiership due to the short term demands placed by the chairmen.
The solution put forward it should be introduced in the championship and down to begin with.
The solution put forward it should be introduced in the championship and down to begin with.
Re: This Rooney Rule farce
BaronsCourtQuaker wrote:
The solution put forward it should be introduced in the championship and down to begin with.
On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.
We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.
Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.
DC
Re: This Rooney Rule farce
That was Oliver Holt if I remember correctly.BaronsCourtQuaker wrote:I was listening to the Sunday Supplement (from Sky) yesterday and (i can think who was making the point) that the Rooney Rule is a good thing but hard to put into immediate practice for the Premiership due to the short term demands placed by the chairmen.
The solution put forward it should be introduced in the championship and down to begin with.
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Re: This Rooney Rule farce
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30017857
Finally, some sense being spoken."I don't want to be interviewed because it's filling a quota," Under-16s coach Dyer told the Daily Telegraph.
Bramble said: "The rule is a disgrace."
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Re: This Rooney Rule farce
TSQuaker wrote:That was Oliver Holt if I remember correctly.BaronsCourtQuaker wrote:I was listening to the Sunday Supplement (from Sky) yesterday and (i can think who was making the point) that the Rooney Rule is a good thing but hard to put into immediate practice for the Premiership due to the short term demands placed by the chairmen.
The solution put forward it should be introduced in the championship and down to begin with.
yup pretty sure your correct it was Holt, who earlier had said he was very pro it.
Re: This Rooney Rule farce
He wrote a column on the idea yesterday morning in the Mirror.
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Re: This Rooney Rule farce
this one http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/ ... ed-4610664TSQuaker wrote:He wrote a column on the idea yesterday morning in the Mirror.
?
he doesn't actually say much in it. The funny thing is I don't think anyone would ever argue that having more black managers is a bad thing. However i just don't get pro discrimination.
Football is a closed shop because that's what it is not many people are qualified for the jobs. Likewise when a job does become available it is the same (previously sacked and failed) managers linked (via the media such as Holt) to the vacancies.
Its such a strange argument that I just don't get.
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Re: This Rooney Rule farce
I do find it ironic that Holt is banging on about the lack of black managers in football, when the lack of black football journalists is just as bad a problem.BaronsCourtQuaker wrote:this one http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/ ... ed-4610664TSQuaker wrote:He wrote a column on the idea yesterday morning in the Mirror.
?
he doesn't actually say much in it. The funny thing is I don't think anyone would ever argue that having more black managers is a bad thing. However i just don't get pro discrimination.
Football is a closed shop because that's what it is not many people are qualified for the jobs. Likewise when a job does become available it is the same (previously sacked and failed) managers linked (via the media such as Holt) to the vacancies.
Its such a strange argument that I just don't get.
At last count (and I could be wrong), there were two black sports journalists working on national newspapers.
Sports journalism, particularly on national newspapers, is as much of a closed shop for middle-aged white men as football management and administration.
I wonder if Mr Holt would countenance the Rooney rule being introduced for sports journalists as well.
People in glass houses and all that...