Wayne Rooney

ArmchairDiehard · Post by **ArmchairDiehard** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:20 pm

If / when he breaks the record, it's only because he's playing against poor sides.

If he doesn't do it, he's useless and should be dropped.

How can he win?

lo36789 · Post by **lo36789** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:28 pm

Score and perform in the bigger games - ie the major tournaments. That's how.

ArmchairDiehard · Post by **ArmchairDiehard** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:30 pm

He could be the leading goalscorer for club and country before the age of 30. He does score goals.

Spyman · Post by **Spyman** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:47 pm

ArmchairDiehard wrote:If / when he breaks the record, it's only because he's playing against poor sides.

If he doesn't do it, he's useless and should be dropped.

How can he win?

Quite right - he's far from the only one who has failed to perform in major tournaments for England but because of his profile, which has been earned through years of consistent performance at one of the top clubs in Europe, he is singled more than most.

He seems perfectly aware of this though and doesn't ever seem to shy away from it.

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lo36789 · Post by **lo36789** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:12 pm

ArmchairDiehard wrote:He could be the leading goalscorer for club and country before the age of 30. He does score goals.

Didn't say he didn't.

Spyman wrote:Quite right - he's far from the only one who has failed to perform in major tournaments for England but because of his profile, which has been earned through years of consistent performance at one of the top clubs in Europe, he is singled more than most.

And I agree with this. Don't get me wrong I don't actually care an awful lot but the question was how can he win - and I assume it was meant in terms of media/pundit/commentator reporting as opposed to simply winning football matches.

He has been no worse than the rest, but the way he won't be questioned will be to perform at a major tournament.

He has been one of our truly consistent, world class players of the past decade. Gerrard, Lampard, Terry, Ferdinand and Cole were all in the same bracket and all were questioned about their performances at international level.

Beano · Post by **Beano** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:14 pm

I've never understood the ridiculous pressure we put on individual players.

The same was true of Shearer, Beckham and others before him, yet we've rarely ever built a team to their strengths, but castigate them in failure.

Spyman · Post by **Spyman** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:26 pm

lo36789 wrote:
ArmchairDiehard wrote:He could be the leading goalscorer for club and country before the age of 30. He does score goals.
Didn't say he didn't.

Spyman wrote:Quite right - he's far from the only one who has failed to perform in major tournaments for England but because of his profile, which has been earned through years of consistent performance at one of the top clubs in Europe, he is singled more than most.
And I agree with this. Don't get me wrong I don't actually care an awful lot but the question was how can he win - and I assume it was meant in terms of media/pundit/commentator reporting as opposed to simply winning football matches.

He has been no worse than the rest, but the way he won't be questioned will be to perform at a major tournament.

He has been one of our truly consistent, world class players of the past decade. Gerrard, Lampard, Terry, Ferdinand and Cole were all in the same bracket and all were questioned about their performances at international level.

I'm not sure any of those players you listed have ever had the same criticism or anywhere near for their failure to deliver in major tournaments as Rooney.

Beckham had similar certainly. Terry has been criticised for much but rarely for his performances for England. Same goes for Cole. Lampard & Gerrard only for being unable to play together in a two. Ferdinand again was not everyone's cup of tea but I wouldn't say he had anywhere near the same level of critics as Rooney.

It seems to be a case of "if he's not among the top 5 in the world he must be s***". Which is the same as it was for Beckham really.

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lo36789 · Post by **lo36789** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:35 pm

I dunno I think that 'golden' generation were viewed as a disappointment.

The thing with Rooney is that when he came through many were optimistic he was a future Ballon D'or winner.

As I say I don't think he has been any worse than any others, and given we have called up the likes of Kevin Davies and David Nugent in his era he has been considerably better than the majority.

But, back to the original question. How will he not face so much criticism - perform outstandingly at a major tournament that's how.

Beano · Post by **Beano** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:09 pm

A decent manager could have made something special of our Euro 2004 side.

Spyman · Post by **Spyman** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:47 pm

lo36789 wrote:I dunno I think that 'golden' generation were viewed as a disappointment.

The thing with Rooney is that when he came through many were optimistic he was a future Ballon D'or winner.

As I say I don't think he has been any worse than any others, and given we have called up the likes of Kevin Davies and David Nugent in his era he has been considerably better than the majority.

But, back to the original question. How will he not face so much criticism - perform outstandingly at a major tournament that's how.

But why does he need to be outstanding to prevent being labeled 's***'? There can be a middle ground.

He's performed outstandingly in the Champions League and Premiership.

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Beano · Post by **Beano** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:24 pm

He was also outstanding at Euro 2004.

lo36789 · Post by **lo36789** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:13 am

Again. I didn't say that it's right - just that it happens. All I did was offer up the way it will stop.

BaronsCourtQuaker · Post by **BaronsCourtQuaker** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:55 am

Agree with Spy, I don't see why its an either / or situation.

Not being as good as Messi and Ronaldo does not make you a poor player. If your are being spoken of in that bracket then you are doing something right.

Rooney unfortunately gets compared to Ronaldo more than others because England have no one else the media can try to compare. Whilst they also came through at United at a similar time and had the game in 2006 against each other, the sending off and the ‘wink’

He is England’s top scorer in competitive matches and for over 10 years always turns up always give all he has for England and has scored some very important goals in qualifying for us, not sure what people problems are with him. If there was better out there then he would have been challenged for his place.

In answer to the question. He wins by becoming England’s top scorer, he seems a little more at peace with the way the medium inflate and deflate his stature and seems much more measured with it all.

Fatty eats roadkill · Post by **Fatty eats roadkill** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:45 am

I'd rate him if he signed for us! Till then he's a bald granny prossie shagging Scouse twat!

Spyman · Post by **Spyman** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:58 am

BaronsCourtQuaker wrote:Agree with Spy, I don't see why its an either / or situation.

Not being as good as Messi and Ronaldo does not make you a poor player. If your are being spoken of in that bracket then you are doing something right.

Rooney unfortunately gets compared to Ronaldo more than others because England have no one else the media can try to compare. Whilst they also came through at United at a similar time and had the game in 2006 against each other, the sending off and the ‘wink’

He is England’s top scorer in competitive matches and for over 10 years always turns up always give all he has for England and has scored some very important goals in qualifying for us, not sure what people problems are with him. If there was better out there then he would have been challenged for his place.

In answer to the question. He wins by becoming England’s top scorer, he seems a little more at peace with the way the medium inflate and deflate his stature and seems much more measured with it all.

It's probably also fairly safe to say that if he played for Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City or Liverpool (for example), he'd have far less detractors.

People love an irrational dislike of a Man Utd player.

Darlo_Pete · Post by **Darlo_Pete** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:35 pm

He's a good player, but not brilliant and I don't think he's as good as Bobby Charlton.

BaronsCourtQuaker · Post by **BaronsCourtQuaker** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:15 pm

I’m not a huge Rooney fan, but in order to create a debate on a boring afternoon in the office.

Is there a better English player than him at the moment? I don't mean on actual current form, but who is better than him. Hart? Baines? Sterling? Walcott? I’m struggling for names.

Spyman · Post by **Spyman** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:23 pm

BaronsCourtQuaker wrote:I’m not a huge Rooney fan, but in order to create a debate on a boring afternoon in the office.

Is there a better English player than him at the moment? I don't mean on actual current form, but who is better than him. Hart? Baines? Sterling? Walcott? I’m struggling for names.

It's very hard to compare when it's not like for like, but if you put Rooney against Walcott, for example - both have been around the England setup and the Champions League for a similar length of time.

Walcott still isn't an established starter for England 9 years on from his debut, nor has he ever really consistently been a focal point of an Arsenal team that has rarely troubled the top 2 or 3 in the Premiership or much beyond Champions League quarter finals.

Rooney has been an established starter for England for over a decade and has won domestic and European trophies for Man Utd, rarely missing games along the way.

As far as forward players go, Owen may have come close if injury hadn't pretty much ruined his career after 2006. Shearer may have if he had gone to a club that could challenge for trophies, but other than that nobody has come close really.

Otherwise, our most accomplished players have been mostly defenders. Terry, Ferdinand, Neville and Cole - all highly decorated at club level and good servants for England.

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OHDFC · Post by **OHDFC** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:35 pm

Darlo_Pete wrote:He's a good player, but not brilliant and I don't think he's as good as Bobby Charlton.

What? He's not as good as a 77 year old ticket tout who retired 10 years before Rooney was born?

AndyPark · Post by **AndyPark** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:48 pm

Glad to see him get his 50th tonight.

Well done

Darlogramps · Post by **Darlogramps** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:00 pm

It's a very English thing to try and put down what is a fantastic achievement.

50 goals in 107 games (so near enough a goal every two games) is a great record in modern football.

Darlo_Pete · Post by **Darlo_Pete** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:11 pm

Wish he'd got his record breaking goal from open play, rather than a penalty.

AndyPark · Post by **AndyPark** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:30 pm

Darlo_Pete wrote:Wish he'd got his record breaking goal from open play, rather than a penalty.

What does it matter?

lo36789 · Post by **lo36789** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:40 pm

AndyPark wrote:
Darlo_Pete wrote:Wish he'd got his record breaking goal from open play, rather than a penalty.
What does it matter?

Dunno but the more time he spends wishing for stuff like that the less time he can get his knickers in a twist about ball boys.

Beano · Post by **Beano** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:41 pm

Darlogramps wrote:It's a very English thing to try and put down what is a fantastic achievement.

50 goals in 107 games (so near enough a goal every two games) is a great record in modern football.

A phenomenal achievement.

Spyman · Post by **Spyman** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:47 am

Darlo_Pete wrote:Wish he'd got his record breaking goal from open play, rather than a penalty.

He score all 50 of them from the spot, did he?

The record is the combination of all 50 goals. Not the one he scored last night.

The commentator on ITV summed the Rooney situation up perfectly for me last night - his contribution for England may not be fully realised until the time comes that we have to find his replacement. For me, that's probably the truest statement in the whole 'is Rooney a great player' debate that I've ever heard!

lo36789 · Post by **lo36789** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:02 am

Spyman wrote:The commentator on ITV summed the Rooney situation up perfectly for me last night - his contribution for England may not be fully realised until the time comes that we have to find his replacement. For me, that's probably the truest statement in the whole 'is Rooney a great player' debate that I've ever heard!

I agree. Rooney has probably had more pressure on him due to being our stand out striker. It would have perhap been different if Michael Owen wasn't so injury prone, or if a number of other players had come close to reaching their potential (few names...Alan Smith, Michael Bridges, Gifton Noel-Williams...there are many more) as he would have been able to share the burden.

It would be quite interesting, and I suspect telling to compare the goalscoring rates and honours at club level of strikers that went to major tournaments (and the ones left at home through none selection), starting from Euro 96 to the World Cup 2014...

I suspect there will be a point, and it probably is at the WC in 2006 where Rooney becomes head and shoulders above the rest.

BaronsCourtQuaker · Post by **BaronsCourtQuaker** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:14 am

Whether your a fan of him or not, its an amazing achievement.

People can try to make excuses for it somehow being easy for him but simply no one else has done it before friendlies or not. People say 'if X was not injured' or 'if Y lived up to their billing' the point is they didn't and Ronney has, thats why he has the number of caps he has and the record he has. Credit where its due.

Caps Goals
Friendly 41 14
WCQ 22 16
WCF 11 1
ECQ 27 14
ECF 6 5

Even in tournaments he has 17 caps and 6 goals.

Whilst stating the obvious he still has time on his side to add to the 50 he could be streets ahead of the rest in 3 years.

BaronsCourtQuaker · Post by **BaronsCourtQuaker** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:17 am

lo36789 wrote:reaching their potential (few names...Alan Smith, Michael Bridges, Gifton Noel-Williams...there are many more) as he would have been able to share the burden.

Gifton Noel-Williams...... Gifton Noel-Williams where did that name of failed potential get plucked from?

lo36789 · Post by **lo36789** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:06 pm

Good old Gifton, it's the old tale that if it weren't for injury then he had bucket loads of potential at Watford https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gifton_Noel-Williams

Now playing for Daventry Town it would seem, that's Northern Prem Division One South!

Or are you just wondering why I happened to remember him...Champ Man

Darlo Uncovered

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