Black Managers

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Black Managers

Post by AndyPark » Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:22 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34589035

Another BBC topic in regards to the limited black managers in the professional game.

How do you feel about this?

Personally, I think people are making a mountain out of a molehill on this. If a manager is good enough, then he's good enough. Shouldn't be based on his skin colour.

But some people are using the "racism" card too often to get backing from higher up officials.

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Re: Black Managers

Post by Darlo_Pete » Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:39 pm

I think that given the number of Black people who play footie in the Football League or the Premiership, the numbers of Black managers should be much higher and reflect the numbers of black players. There is racism in football, not directly so much, but clearly indirectly.

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Re: Black Managers

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:53 pm

The only "fact" involved is that there aren't that many black managers, the rest is nothing but pure conjecture and assumption.

Why is this even an issue? Why does there have to be a certain percentage of people in a particular job with a particular skin colour, or a particular gender for that matter?

Everyone should be given equal opportunities whether they're white, black, male, or female, but this positive discrimination bollocks needs to stop.

I'm really failing to see any discrimination here, and the lack of black managers shows a lack of black managers, and nothing more.

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Re: Black Managers

Post by ArmchairDiehard » Wed Oct 21, 2015 1:06 pm

DarloOnTheUp wrote:The only "fact" involved is that there aren't that many black managers, the rest is nothing but pure conjecture and assumption.

Why is this even an issue? Why does there have to be a certain percentage of people in a particular job with a particular skin colour, or a particular gender for that matter?

Everyone should be given equal opportunities whether they're white, black, male, or female, but this positive discrimination bollocks needs to stop.

I'm really failing to see any discrimination here, and the lack of black managers shows a lack of black managers, and nothing more.
Spot on
Quakerz wrote:
stayhigh13 wrote:I would hazard a guess as someone with a long throw who is also tall.
What about Steve Backley?

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Re: Black Managers

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:28 pm

Darlo_Pete wrote: the numbers of Black managers should be much higher and reflect the numbers of black players.
Why ?? I just don't get it ..... anyway, this has been discussed on here before - football Chairmen would employ space aliens/Whales or even Women :o as managers if they got the desired results - as results are everything.
Darlo_Pete wrote:There is racism in football, not directly so much, but clearly indirectly.


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Re: Black Managers

Post by Mission Impossible » Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:34 pm

Real problem is the lack of black people turning up to watch games. More black players on the pitch than the terraces.

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Re: Black Managers

Post by lo36789 » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:21 pm

Darlo_Pete wrote:I think that given the number of Black people who play footie in the Football League or the Premiership, the numbers of Black managers should be much higher and reflect the numbers of black players
Expectedly Pete has only seen the simplified equation.
DarloOnTheUp wrote:I'm really failing to see any discrimination here, and the lack of black managers shows a lack of black managers, and nothing more.
It isn't however quite that simple either.
Mission Impossible wrote:Real problem is the lack of black people turning up to watch games. More black players on the pitch than the terraces.
This is an indicator but not the root cause.

The black manager argument root cause is beyond the control of football in my personal opinion. Unless of course football is going to start funding education in more deprived areas of the UK?

If you look at wider social statistics then there is a bit of a never ending circle that applies. the most well paid jobs in the UK are generally held by white males, the best education in the UK generally goes to the offspring of the best paid (white males), white males will also have more disposable income to afford the cost of football on a Saturday. (Best educated get best jobs is the final bit of that cycle).

There is much more to management than being able to play the game. I would expect that most football managers would be academically 'above average' against their peers (look at the link back to trends with white males). I would also expect them the have a social background that is more disciplined again a positive relationship with previous factors.

I don't believe this is a football issue. I believe it is much wider. I don't believe it is a racist issue, I believe it is an indicator of equality issues in the UK.

Football may be helping inadvertently. Football as an industry is making a lot of black millionaires, who break that cycle mentioned before. That may take 2 or 3 generations to really have an impact though.

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Re: Black Managers

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:45 pm

lo36789 wrote:This is an indicator but not the root cause.

The black manager argument root cause is beyond the control of football in my personal opinion. Unless of course football is going to start funding education in more deprived areas of the UK?

If you look at wider social statistics then there is a bit of a never ending circle that applies. the most well paid jobs in the UK are generally held by white males, the best education in the UK generally goes to the offspring of the best paid (white males), white males will also have more disposable income to afford the cost of football on a Saturday. (Best educated get best jobs is the final bit of that cycle).

There is much more to management than being able to play the game. I would expect that most football managers would be academically 'above average' against their peers (look at the link back to trends with white males). I would also expect them the have a social background that is more disciplined again a positive relationship with previous factors.

I don't believe this is a football issue. I believe it is much wider. I don't believe it is a racist issue, I believe it is an indicator of equality issues in the UK.

Football may be helping inadvertently. Football as an industry is making a lot of black millionaires, who break that cycle mentioned before. That may take 2 or 3 generations to really have an impact though.
Evidence please, otherwise this is nothing more than conjecture.

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Re: Black Managers

Post by lo36789 » Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:11 pm

Can probably find trends relating to the stuff below;

UK Earnings v ethnicity
Private/Public/State eduation v earnings
Crime rates v family economic status

Not sure if I can get something to show that higher earnings leads to private/public education or more disposable income to spend on doing things. There might be something but common sense surely prevails with that one?

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Re: Black Managers

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:16 pm

lo36789 wrote: I would expect that most football managers would be academically 'above average' against their peers

I'm not sure that "most" football managers are known for their academic abilities.

"I can't spell and I write like a two year old" Harry Redknapp

It takes a special kind of person to be a good manager in any walk of life, and I'm not convinced that education (or skin colour) is on the top of the list of desirable attributes.
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Re: Black Managers

Post by stayhigh13 » Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:23 pm

Anyone who claims inequality as well institutional and systemic racism isn't evident in the football is wrong.

Very strange that the postee of the topic followed the post up by calling it a mountain out of molehill.... very vague, said with no foundation to do so - counterproductive comment.

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Re: Black Managers

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:30 pm

lo36789 wrote:Can probably find trends relating to the stuff below;

UK Earnings v ethnicity
Private/Public/State eduation v earnings
Crime rates v family economic status

Not sure if I can get something to show that higher earnings leads to private/public education or more disposable income to spend on doing things. There might be something but common sense surely prevails with that one?
This isn't evidence, this is more conjecture.
stayhigh13 wrote:Anyone who claims inequality as well institutional and systemic racism isn't evident in the football is wrong.
Well that settles that then. Never mind proving your point, just say that the other person is "wrong" and be done with it.

Well I say YOU'RE wrong, so who wins?
stayhigh13 wrote:Very strange that the postee of the topic followed the post up by calling it a mountain out of molehill.... very vague, said with no foundation to do so - counterproductive comment.
Hypocrite.

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Re: Black Managers

Post by lo36789 » Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:43 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
lo36789 wrote: I would expect that most football managers would be academically 'above average' against their peers

I'm not sure that "most" football managers are known for their academic abilities.

"I can't spell and I write like a two year old" Harry Redknapp

It takes a special kind of person to be a good manager in any walk of life, and I'm not convinced that education (or skin colour) is on the top of the list of desirable attributes.
I didn't say renowned academic abilities, I said higher than average amongst peers. I also said combined with discipline.

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Re: Black Managers

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:11 pm

lo36789 wrote:
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
lo36789 wrote: I would expect that most football managers would be academically 'above average' against their peers

I'm not sure that "most" football managers are known for their academic abilities.

"I can't spell and I write like a two year old" Harry Redknapp

It takes a special kind of person to be a good manager in any walk of life, and I'm not convinced that education (or skin colour) is on the top of the list of desirable attributes.
I didn't say renowned academic abilities, I said higher than average amongst peers. I also said combined with discipline.
I'm sorry what?

I'm not sure what discipline has to do with being a football manager, but anyone can learn discipline, no matter what skin colour you have. You learn discipline in state schools, you divvy.

And yet again, you make these statements without backing up your claims with anything at all: "Higher than average [academic abilities] amongst peers". Care to prove that? And how that relates to skin colour?

You do realise as well we live in a country where anyone, no matter their skin colour, class, or gender, can go to college and then university? There are even systems in place for under-privileged students.

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Re: Black Managers

Post by Spyman » Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:20 pm

Look at Paul Ince as an example.

Did a decent job keeping Macclesfield up in League 2, then took a bank rolled MK Dons up from League 2 using a squad largely assembled by his predecessor.

Given a Premiership job with Blackburn, where he was way out of his depth.

How many other managers get a Premiership opportunity, black or white, off the back of two reasonably good seasons in League 2? Ince then has the audacity to blame his numerous failures since on racism.

Fame and name play a far larger part than colour in my opinion.

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We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

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Re: Black Managers

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:42 pm

lo-

Are you seriously suggesting that any sane football Chairman wouldn't give the managers job, his managers job, to the best candidate that turned up?

Because he wasn't white?

This to me is the core part of the argument.

PS, not forgetting there's only 92 jobs going in the league so competition is obviously tough.
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Re: Black Managers

Post by stayhigh13 » Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:48 pm

DarloOnTheUp wrote:
lo36789 wrote:Can probably find trends relating to the stuff below;

UK Earnings v ethnicity
Private/Public/State eduation v earnings
Crime rates v family economic status

Not sure if I can get something to show that higher earnings leads to private/public education or more disposable income to spend on doing things. There might be something but common sense surely prevails with that one?
This isn't evidence, this is more conjecture.
stayhigh13 wrote:Anyone who claims inequality as well institutional and systemic racism isn't evident in the football is wrong.
Well that settles that then. Never mind proving your point, just say that the other person is "wrong" and be done with it.

Well I say YOU'RE wrong, so who wins?
stayhigh13 wrote:Very strange that the postee of the topic followed the post up by calling it a mountain out of molehill.... very vague, said with no foundation to do so - counterproductive comment.
Hypocrite.
I could present a case for what I have said here which would back up my statement and - this would be based on academic theory and social study, with most of what I would articulate being from the work of Bradbury (the researcher who is responsible for the work on which the article is based) but I don't have the time, want or energy to do so.... I'll take that hypocrite label on the chin!

"Youre not seeing any discrimination" because you don't want to and will hide behind your dominant discourse view. You're contributing heavily to this post- but only with the notion of disregarding the topic as an issue.

I wasn't having a dig at AndyPark by saying what I did- I just found it unusual to raise the topic of the article to only denounce the issues raised within it, or to at least suggest they are not important.



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Re: Black Managers

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:40 pm

stayhigh13 wrote:I could present a case for what I have said here which would back up my statement and - this would be based on academic theory and social study, with most of what I would articulate being from the work of Bradbury (the researcher who is responsible for the work on which the article is based) but I don't have the time, want or energy to do so.... I'll take that hypocrite label on the chin!

"Youre not seeing any discrimination" because you don't want to and will hide behind your dominant discourse view. You're contributing heavily to this post- but only with the notion of disregarding the topic as an issue.

I wasn't having a dig at AndyPark by saying what I did- I just found it unusual to raise the topic of the article to only denounce the issues raised within it, or to at least suggest they are not important.
So what you're saying is you can't back up your argument with anything.

And I'm not trying to "hide behind the dominant view" or arguing only "with the notion of disregarding the topic as an issue".

I'm simply asking you to back up your points, with evidence, and so far you've failed to do that, which means everything you've said is baseless and, at present, false. And that's pretty much the definition of conjecture.

I'm happy to be wrong but it's difficult to debate with someone whose best argument is "you're wrong" and "I could prove my point with lots of evidence if I wanted but [insert excuse]".

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Re: Black Managers

Post by lo36789 » Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:59 pm

Ok my point has clearly been missed. I didn't say people weren't getting roles because they are black or white.

I believe there are other criteria which it is based on.

I believe there are wider social issues in the UK regarding race whereby white males tend to come from more wealth, have better education which is ultimately beneficial in securing a role such as a football manager.

I don't believe that race plays a part in the appointment directly. I think indirectly though through these wider social disparities between black and white families in the UK it manifests itself as less appointments of black football managers.

In the same way I don't think that the boards of FTSE 100 clubs are all racist, but there are less black CEOs than there are white CEOs.

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Re: Black Managers

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:09 pm

lo36789 wrote:Ok my point has clearly been missed. I didn't say people weren't getting roles because they are black or white.

I believe there are other criteria which it is based on.

I believe there are wider social issues in the UK regarding race whereby white males tend to come from more wealth, have better education which is ultimately beneficial in securing a role such as a football manager.

I don't believe that race plays a part in the appointment directly. I think indirectly though through these wider social disparities between black and white families in the UK it manifests itself as less appointments of black football managers.

In the same way I don't think that the boards of FTSE 100 clubs are all racist, but there are less black CEOs than there are white CEOs.
A point which you still haven't provided any evidence for. How many times do I have to keep saying this? PROVIDE SOME EVIDENCE. I can't refute something which doesn't exist. If you prove me wrong, then fine, but I need something more to go on than your word. I similarly fail to see the link you've created between your point and football management, especially since most managers tend to be ex-players, but feel free to enlighten me. There aren't that many managers with academic histories, are there? Again, it would've helped if you'd provided some data or something for me to work with, rather than just more blanket statements.

Also, you do realise that the UK is a predominantly white country, with a population of around 87% white, 3% black, and the rest other minorities such as Asian:

Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demograph ... #Ethnicity

So there is always going to be a disparity with regards to race, simply due to the numbers.

Plus with those numbers, black players are actually over-represented in football relative to the overall UK population (the article Andy posted says that 25% of UK players are black), so it shows that statistics aren't always the best thing to draw wild assumptions and accusations from.

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Re: Black Managers

Post by lo36789 » Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:44 pm

As you say...

White British - 87%
Asian - 7%
Black - 3%
Mixed - 2%

Then a percentage lost somewhere in the decimal points there.

All things being equal, there is no reason that the demographic of football managers and football players shouldn't be absolutely identical. Everybody has equal opportunity (apparantely) regardless of their heritage (disagree with you there but whatever).

So what is the root cause of 12% of British football managers in the top divisions not being from ethnic minority or mixed race? You don't believe it is because of racist chairman, therein it is because of lack of equal ability amongst the population.

Why is there not equal ability? Everyone has the same opportunity or so you proclaim so what do you believe to be the underlying factor.

Figures show that disproportionately ethnic minorities do live in poverty compared to white British http://www.poverty.org.uk/06/index.shtml. Similarly it shows that social mobility in the uk is hardly brilliant if you are born to poverty you stay in poverty https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... indicators. To me that is more indicative of the problems faced by ethnic minority britains in attaining top jobs - be it in the football world or anywhere else.

Those social mobility figures despite your attestations do not evidence that everybody has completely equal opportunity.

Btw. There are plenty of other factors at play. I suspect the main reason for the lack of Asian managers is that actually within their country of origin football isn't a big sport. I would expect a higher representation in the likes of cricket teams in the UK proportionate to the population.

I would also dispute that you can use the British figures to say black players are over represented. It's not quite that simple you would need to take into account nationality of he players themselves. 3% of British players should be black (maybe a bit higher to take into account the lesser percentage of players with heritage in Asia), I would expect a higher percentage of African and Southern European players to be black.

It is the same logic I would apply to the high earning jobs in the UK. The banking sector is usually up there, I would be surprised if in countries that are predominantly Muslim for that race to be equally represented at the top of banking. That is a faith/cultural driver that would impact on what 'should' be seen.

All of these things are mere indicators. When it comes to social and demographic studies it is theories that rule supreme, theories that use evidence as an indicator but is rarely proof of the full reason behind things being the way they are. The missing bit is often attributed to racism but there are plenty of other factors at play which seem to be overlooked.

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Re: Black Managers

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:16 am

Woohoo, you backed up your statements with evidence! A couple of points though:

I didn't say everyone had equal opportunities, I said everyone can go to college and then university regardless of their skin colour, class, gender etc. That's a little different from saying everyone has equal opportunities as there are still class divides in this country, and you're right about being class mobility being difficult, especially from the bottom. It's much better than it used to be though but certain groups (upper classes) will have an easier time of it, you're right, but that's more of a class issue than a race one.

The stats you provided show that two-fifths of UK minorities live in low income households, which is apparently twice that of white people, and this is obviously a problem. But why is this? Is it possibly because many of these minorities are immigrants, who have moved to a new country without any money, and so are starting from the bottom? This will therefore skew the stats so again the stats can't be relied upon on their own (there were apparently 7.8 million foreign born UK citizens in 2013, with the majority of them living in London: http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.u ... k-overview). That being said, more should be done to help low-income households, but that is the case regardless of skin colour. And as I said, even low-income households have the opportunity to go to school, then college, then university, so the chance for "academia" is always there, which was one of your key points.

And speaking of stats being skewed, you mentioned two instances where they were: the number of black footballers being skewed due to foreign imports, and the lack of Asian managers due to their country being more interested in other sports. So you're saying there are numerous factors which can affect stats, and that they can be skewed or manipulated leading to false conclusions being drawn? Who knew?

So I ask the question again: why does there have to be a certain percentage of people of a particular skin colour or gender in a particular job? I feel like the odd one out for trying not to focus on skin colour so much. You created this false dichotomy whereby you suggested it's either racism or minorities being under-privileged, but we've just seen above how stats are affected by numerous factors, not necessarily just the two you mentioned. What if, by coincidence, the men who have been hired for these coaching jobs happened to be the best men for the job, regardless of skin colour, and this has skewed the stats again because more of them happened to be white, and it wasn't because of their skin colour that this was the case? Ex-players don't always go into coaching/management either, they often choose other routes, so that again affects the stats.

I also ask the question: how does all of this relate to being a football manager? You still haven't supplied information on how many managers have academic backgrounds, or privileged backgrounds, and most managers tend to be ex-players and footballers often come from non-privileged backgrounds so I fail to see the connection. Plus as I said, even low-income households have access to school etc.

You do make some good points in your post though.

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Re: Black Managers

Post by BaronsCourtQuaker » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:24 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34730265

racism or just not very good managers?

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Re: Black Managers

Post by lo36789 » Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:50 am

BaronsCourtQuaker wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34730265

racism or just not very good managers?
there are other options.

Ramsey - good coach, not a good enough manager for the level
Powell - When 4 managers 'fail' in 5 years maybe it is the expectations not the manager that is the problem. Powell proved he is a decent manager at Charlton (good enough for League One/Championship bottom half).

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Re: Black Managers

Post by Darlo will » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:40 pm

I always say the same thing when this topic comes up...

When managers the current batch of football league managers were playing and taking the first steps towards management there were far far fewer ethnic minority players.

If you think about it, the black managers that are always mentioned are part of the "new" generation of managers (that is to say, they are not in the ferguson, LGV, Redknapp club)

People forget that it takes time for a player to retire, have a few years off doing badges and gaining coaching badges before they can even think about becoming a manager at any decent level let alone in the football league.

The number of black managers will increase over time as more and more black players retire from the game.

Don't know if that really makes sense but basically, the pool of managers in the next generation will be much more diverse than previous years
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Re: Black Managers

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:32 pm

Darlo will wrote:I always say the same thing when this topic comes up...

When managers the current batch of football league managers were playing and taking the first steps towards management there were far far fewer ethnic minority players.

If you think about it, the black managers that are always mentioned are part of the "new" generation of managers (that is to say, they are not in the ferguson, LGV, Redknapp club)

People forget that it takes time for a player to retire, have a few years off doing badges and gaining coaching badges before they can even think about becoming a manager at any decent level let alone in the football league.

The number of black managers will increase over time as more and more black players retire from the game.

Don't know if that really makes sense but basically, the pool of managers in the next generation will be much more diverse than previous years
I agree, and I think Spyman said something similar a while back.

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Re: Black Managers

Post by Spyman » Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:59 pm

DarloOnTheUp wrote:
Darlo will wrote:I always say the same thing when this topic comes up...

When managers the current batch of football league managers were playing and taking the first steps towards management there were far far fewer ethnic minority players.

If you think about it, the black managers that are always mentioned are part of the "new" generation of managers (that is to say, they are not in the ferguson, LGV, Redknapp club)

People forget that it takes time for a player to retire, have a few years off doing badges and gaining coaching badges before they can even think about becoming a manager at any decent level let alone in the football league.

The number of black managers will increase over time as more and more black players retire from the game.

Don't know if that really makes sense but basically, the pool of managers in the next generation will be much more diverse than previous years
I agree, and I think Spyman said something similar a while back.
Hard to believe you agreed with something I said!

What is the average age of league managers I wonder? You could probably then trace that back to a particular generation of player and look at how many black players there were back then etc.

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On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

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