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 Post subject: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 11:32 am 
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England squad announced today...oh dear.

Tom Heaton - there will be some people who don't even know who he is.
CBs - Cahill / Stones / Smalling such weak choices. I'd go with Stones and Smalling but only because I can't face another tournament with Cahill as our first choice CB.
MID - Wilshere? WILSHERE!?
ATT - How Rashford gets in ahead of Walcott I have no idea.

I am not even sure Roy had many more options but this is without doubt the worst England squad I have seen going into a major tournament.


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 12:08 pm 
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lo36789 wrote:
England squad announced today...oh dear.

Tom Heaton - there will be some people who don't even know who he is.
CBs - Cahill / Stones / Smalling such weak choices. I'd go with Stones and Smalling but only because I can't face another tournament with Cahill as our first choice CB.
MID - Wilshere? WILSHERE!?
ATT - How Rashford gets in ahead of Walcott I have no idea.

I am not even sure Roy had many more options but this is without doubt the worst England squad I have seen going into a major tournament.

Disagree.

Who would you pick ahead of Heaton? He's had a good season for Burnley and will be full of confidence.

Walcott has been poor for months. Rashford over Defoe (who has had a good season in a poor team and has plenty of experience) would be a fairer comparison. Townsend is more likely to fill the spot Walcott may have taken, but I'm sure had Wellbeck been for, neither would be going anyway.

Wilshere is a huge Hodgson favourite, so it's no surprise he's given him a chance. On his day he is a very good player so you can see why he goes.

The central defenders - well what else is there? Jagielka? Hardly a significant upgrade. Not sure who else you'd suggest to be honest, we're just not that strong in that department these days.

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On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:
Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

DC


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 12:18 pm 
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lo36789 wrote:
England squad announced today...oh dear.

Tom Heaton - there will be some people who don't even know who he is.
CBs - Cahill / Stones / Smalling such weak choices. I'd go with Stones and Smalling but only because I can't face another tournament with Cahill as our first choice CB.
MID - Wilshere? WILSHERE!?
ATT - How Rashford gets in ahead of Walcott I have no idea.

I am not even sure Roy had many more options but this is without doubt the worst England squad I have seen going into a major tournament.


This is perhaps one of the biggest overreactions I've ever seen, but then you've got to be negative about England right?

Yeah there's a couple of odd decisions there but "worst England squad"? Give me a break.

Our first 11 is actually decent.


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 1:08 pm 
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lo36789 wrote:
England squad announced today...oh dear.

Tom Heaton - there will be some people who don't even know who he is.
CBs - Cahill / Stones / Smalling such weak choices. I'd go with Stones and Smalling but only because I can't face another tournament with Cahill as our first choice CB.
MID - Wilshere? WILSHERE!?
ATT - How Rashford gets in ahead of Walcott I have no idea.

I am not even sure Roy had many more options but this is without doubt the worst England squad I have seen going into a major tournament.

The people who haven't heard of Tom Heaton are those who think football doesn't exist outside of the premiership. He has negligible chance of playing, but it's reward for someone who has had a very good season.

Cahill Stones and Smalling are the best CBs in the country - it's not Hodgson's fault that they are the best available.

Wilshere is one of the most gifted midfielders in the country. He's performed very well for England in the past. Obviously, he's had the temerity to be injured, but I fail to see why it's such an outrageous choice. We have plenty of grafters available in CM - Milner and Drinkwater to name 2. Wilshere gives something different, albeit with few matches in the last year. Mind, him going into the tournament fully fit could be a very good thing for England...

Walcott has been poor this season. It's looking increasingly likely he's not going to fulfill his early career promise. Why not let Rashford be part of the build up to the Euros - he's had an excellent start to his career. I highly doubt Rashford will actually go the Euros, so get him some experience around the set up.

I think the squad is about as good as could be. There are plenty of talented youngsters in there. I struggle to see why you've reacted to it the way you have.


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 2:24 pm 
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I am sure I put in my post that I am not sure Roy had that many other options - my point was more the squad strength is really poor. I don't dispute there aren't many other options available.

DarloOnTheUp wrote:
Give me a break.


I've been watching England properly since Euro 96. I can't think of a worse squad in terms of strength in depth to a major tournament since then.


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 5:17 pm 
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lo36789 wrote:
I am sure I put in my post that I am not sure Roy had that many other options - my point was more the squad strength is really poor. I don't dispute there aren't many other options available.

DarloOnTheUp wrote:
Give me a break.


I've been watching England properly since Euro 96. I can't think of a worse squad in terms of strength in depth to a major tournament since then.


Well I still disagree with you but that isn't what you said: you said this is the worst squad you've ever seen, not the worst squad in terms of strength in depth.

They are two different statements.

Anyways, your original post was total bollocks for other reasons:

You picked on Heaton even though he's our third choice keeper, is decent, and Forster and Hart have both been immense this season so the third choice keeper doesn't warrant as much scrutiny as you gave it.

Have you watched Smalling this season? He's really developed into a class CB, Cahill was Chelsea's best CB last season when they won the title, and Stones has the potential to be world class. They're hardly "weak". And we don't have a massive amount of quality CBs at the minute so why not give a couple of youngsters a chance (Stones and Smalling) who both have huge potential?

Wilshere, admittedly, has hardly played a game this season but he will only make the final cut IF he proves he's up to it. And when fit he is a quality player.

Rashford got in ahead of Walcott because Walcott has been shite all season whereas Rashford has become Man Utd's first choice striker and looks to be an excellent prospect. Walcott hasn't come close to reaching his potential so, at the age of 27, why not blood in Rashford instead? A fairer criticism would have been to say "why is Rashford in ahead of Defoe or Carroll", but again maybe it's the age thing.

And then you've conveniently ignored Kane, Vardy, Alli, Dier, Sturridge, Rose, Clyne, Barkley, Drinkwater, and (if he can hit form again) Sterling who are all excellent young players (I guess Vardy's a bit older) and who make up the bulk of our first team.

My only criticism is that he has overlooked Noble, Antonio, Defoe, and Carroll in favour of the likes of Delph, Milner, and Lallana, but I still reckon our first 11 is much stronger than you're making out, and so is the squad. At the very least you can say it is full of exciting youngsters with lots of potential, which has never been the case for England in my lifetime.


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 6:22 pm 
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Let's be honest; Wilshere is no surprise at all so it staggers me that people are acting like it is. He was always going to go and, if fit, can potentially be the sort of player who could change a game from the bench.

Generally I think Hodgson has done as much as he could do with what was available - my main 'gripes' would be the (I suppose understandable) omission of Defoe and the inclusion of Delph and Lallana, both of which I personally just can't see making a big difference in a major tournament scenario.

Regarding Heaton, let's remember too he would not be in contention were it not for Butland's injury.


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 6:58 pm 
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Was pointing out some of the areas which I think confirm it is a weak squad.

Antonio is the one I'd have possibly pipped for over Townsend, possibly Noble over Wilshere (or Lallana) and as many have mentioned Defoe over Rashford.

I'd like to think we use Dier and Delph to break things up in midfielder and allow freedom to Ali and the forward line. They should provide cover to our defence.

Just hope Hodgson doesn't try and go too rigid with the way he lays the team out and just gives out attack minded players the freedom to do what they are best at.


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 7:23 pm 
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Wilshire's inclusion is a calculated gamble, but on his day he can be one of the best midfielders in Europe.


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 8:08 pm 
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Hodgson has also always been pretty clear that the players who got us through qualifying deserved to go to the tournament, so it's no surprise to see Milner, Llallana, etc in the squad over the likes of Antonio, Noble, Carroll etc.

Also, Michael Antonio isn't particularly a youngster in footballing terms. He's 26, as is Drinkwater.

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On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:
Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

DC


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 8:28 pm 
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Spyman wrote:
Hodgson has also always been pretty clear that the players who got us through qualifying deserved to go to the tournament, so it's no surprise to see Milner, Llallana, etc in the squad over the likes of Antonio, Noble, Carroll etc.

Also, Michael Antonio isn't particularly a youngster in footballing terms. He's 26, as is Drinkwater.

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Forget that, nobody said Antonio was a youngster (but he is the same age as Drinkwater, so by default he was).

I'd be amazed if Rashford makes the final 23 over Vardy, Kane, Rooney or Sturridge (although the latter is probably the one at risk), but taking him along for the build up does make more sense than taking Defoe for the build up seeing as he has nothing to gain in terms of experience for his own future - whereas the experience may help Rashford in years to come.

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On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:
Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

DC


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 11:44 pm 
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Spyman wrote:
Spyman wrote:
Hodgson has also always been pretty clear that the players who got us through qualifying deserved to go to the tournament, so it's no surprise to see Milner, Llallana, etc in the squad over the likes of Antonio, Noble, Carroll etc.

Also, Michael Antonio isn't particularly a youngster in footballing terms. He's 26, as is Drinkwater.

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Forget that, nobody said Antonio was a youngster (but he is the same age as Drinkwater, so by default he was).

I'd be amazed if Rashford makes the final 23 over Vardy, Kane, Rooney or Sturridge (although the latter is probably the one at risk), but taking him along for the build up does make more sense than taking Defoe for the build up seeing as he has nothing to gain in terms of experience for his own future - whereas the experience may help Rashford in years to come.

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Apologies, I had it in my head that Drinkwater was younger.

Good points in the rest of your post though.


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 8:44 pm 
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On tonight's showing, Rashford fully deserves to be in the England squad, and Rooney had a good game too.


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 9:03 pm 
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Rashford looks very special. Intelligent, fast, good finisher. Another talented youngster coming through - if the likes of him, Stones, Sterling, Alli, Shaw, Kane, Butland etc. carry on/progress as hoped, then that's the basis of a pretty good team!


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 9:04 am 
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Ross Barkley too.

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On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:
Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

DC


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 1:24 pm 
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Spyman wrote:
Ross Barkley too.

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I think Barkley was included in the "etc." bit.


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 1:39 pm 
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DarloOnTheUp wrote:
Spyman wrote:
Ross Barkley too.

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I think Barkley was included in the "etc." bit.

I knew I'd forgotten a few :lol:

Shows how many good young players there are coming through. I've been impressed with Loftus-Cheek when I've seen him too, although he needs to get more game time somehow.


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 3:07 pm 
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Not forgetting Oxlade-Chamberlain is still young, Jesse Lingard's development and potential understanding with Rashford, Eric Dier has done very well the last two seasons, and Danny Wellbeck & Jack Wilshere still have years ahead of them - if they can shrug off the persistent injuries.

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On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:
Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

DC


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 9:03 am 
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truthfully it really is not an inspiring squad, but you can’t lay the blame with Roy. It simply is just what we have got on offer at the moment.

Defensively we look very fragile, to the extent that he is happy to take Dier as cover for the CB spots rather than a specialised CB.

Midfield people seem to think we have an abundance of players (hence why so many have been picked) yet in reality they are much of a muchness with very little quality in there, again relying on Wilshire to provide a spark that has never been seen is quite a gamble.

Forwards again the consensus seems to be that we are blessed up front. I tend to disagree, again all decent forwards but are they really in the bracket of Owen, Shearer, Wright, Fowler, Sheringham, Ferdinand who never brought anything home.

Having said all of that I do think that for all the parts are not as good as we have had in the past, the team may work better. Also I don’t see much in the competition to worry us too much to progress a little, so could see ¼ finals as a realistic target. For me though the ethos has to be around simply working hard, pressing the ball and attacking at speed (sounds very simple).

It’s hard tell how we’ll go and we could turn out performances much like Liverpool did last night over their 2 halves. Either successfully or caving.

I’m looking forward to the tournament though, nice to be going in with not much pressure and with a few of the home nations represented.


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 10:23 am 
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I do find it peculiar that when it comes to England, people seem to be in competition as to who can be the most negative about the squad. Regardless of whether it's true or not, any squad announcement descends into a contest over who can criticise the most.

It leads to utter guff, like in this thread. Lo's ridiculous, hysterical overreaction is beyond embarrassing. Or you get ill-thought out nonsense like this:

BaronsCourtQuaker wrote:
Forwards again the consensus seems to be that we are blessed up front. I tend to disagree, again all decent forwards but are they really in the bracket of Owen, Shearer, Wright, Fowler, Sheringham, Ferdinand who never brought anything home.


If you're going to compare, you can't cherry-pick the best England strikers from the past 20 years and compare them against a smaller group of individuals, particularly when the current crop are young players, yet to realise their full potential and with fewer international matches under their belts.

When BCQ picks Owen, Shearer etc, he's thinking of them in their pomp, at their best. Kane, Sturridge, Vardy and Rashford have played in one major tournament between them. Their best days are still to come. (Yes I must also include Rooney, and he has generally been underwhelming at major tournaments, although he is a our record goalscorer so clearly has something about him).

To compare the two groups of players is ludicrous and unfair because it's not a balanced comparison.

Kane, Rashford and to a lesser extent Sturridge certainly have the potential to get themselves into the top bracket of England strikers.

I just don't understand why when it comes to England, people have to be irrationally negative, and refuse to look at any positives whatsoever.


As for the tournament, Euro 2016 is ludicrously over-inflated with mediocre teams (thanks to Michel Platini's politicking). 24 teams is far too many.

It does mean however there are fewer excuses for England. We've got a good group and should be able to make the last eight. If Hodgson can't get this group of players to the quarter finals in a weak competition, he doesn't deserve to stay as boss.

Anything beyond the quarters would be above expectation.

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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 2:43 pm 
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Darlogramps wrote:
I do find it peculiar that when it comes to England, people seem to be in competition as to who can be the most negative about the squad. Regardless of whether it's true or not, any squad announcement descends into a contest over who can criticise the most.

It leads to utter guff, like in this thread. Lo's ridiculous, hysterical overreaction is beyond embarrassing. Or you get ill-thought out nonsense like this:

BaronsCourtQuaker wrote:
Forwards again the consensus seems to be that we are blessed up front. I tend to disagree, again all decent forwards but are they really in the bracket of Owen, Shearer, Wright, Fowler, Sheringham, Ferdinand who never brought anything home.


If you're going to compare, you can't cherry-pick the best England strikers from the past 20 years and compare them against a smaller group of individuals, particularly when the current crop are young players, yet to realise their full potential and with fewer international matches under their belts.

When BCQ picks Owen, Shearer etc, he's thinking of them in their pomp, at their best. Kane, Sturridge, Vardy and Rashford have played in one major tournament between them. Their best days are still to come. (Yes I must also include Rooney, and he has generally been underwhelming at major tournaments, although he is a our record goalscorer so clearly has something about him).

To compare the two groups of players is ludicrous and unfair because it's not a balanced comparison.

Kane, Rashford and to a lesser extent Sturridge certainly have the potential to get themselves into the top bracket of England strikers.

I just don't understand why when it comes to England, people have to be irrationally negative, and refuse to look at any positives whatsoever.


As for the tournament, Euro 2016 is ludicrously over-inflated with mediocre teams (thanks to Michel Platini's politicking). 24 teams is far too many.

It does mean however there are fewer excuses for England. We've got a good group and should be able to make the last eight. If Hodgson can't get this group of players to the quarter finals in a weak competition, he doesn't deserve to stay as boss.

Anything beyond the quarters would be above expectation.


Spot on, and the over-the-top negativity of England fans does my nut in too.

It's like they're blind to any positives and blow any possible negative stuff out of proportion. Or they invent something negative which isn't even true and blow that of proportion, just because being negative is the thing to do with England.


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 6:23 pm 
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Btw I do think we can field a decent side, but do think there are players in there I really wouldn't expect to see in a squad.

Kane and Vardy should be effective up top. I am not sure how he will get the balance right in midfield. I would love to see Barkley, Alli and Dier possibly but Barkley can be too hot and cold and once you get past them I just think we lose a bit of 'spark'

Then the defence just concerns me. If Stones is on his game him and Smalling sounds decent on the surface but you know he'll play safe with Cahill who I just have no confidence in.

We will get through the groups then knocked on pens for me. I hope we do better but I just have lingering concerns over how Hodgson will set the team up.

I am expecting Hart, Clyne, Cahill, Smalling, Rose, Dier, Milner, Alli, Henderson, Rooney, Kane


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 7:17 pm 
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Yet more over-the-top negativity.

Cahill is better than you're making out.

You mention "spark" yet you've left out Sturridge, Sterling, Townsend, Lallana, and Rashford. You also talk about balance and these would help bring that.

And of course you have "lingering concerns": you're an England fan, it's expected.


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 7:33 pm 
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I don't see how we fit those players in properly to balance the side out. Sterling best role for me is in the tip of the diamond but that's where I also think Lallana has to fit and Rooney.

I don't see Townsend fitting in CM and I don't see Sturridge playing there either. My concern isn't that I think our best formation is 4-3-3 with a number 10 role. If we push Sturridge in then I wonder if it pushes Vardy out wide in which case he isn't effective.

There are two players that I think we are missing. Welbeck is one who exists and we will miss I don't think any player brings what he does - the other is almost a second Eric Dier - I almost feel like we need him in defence and midfield.

As I said it's not necessarily concerns over the team which could be put out - it's how I think Hodgson will try and play it.


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 7:38 pm 
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lo36789 wrote:
I don't see how we fit those players in properly to balance the side out. Sterling best role for me is in the tip of the diamond but that's where I also think Lallana has to fit and Rooney.

I don't see Townsend fitting in CM and I don't see Sturridge playing there either. My concern isn't that I think our best formation is 4-3-3 with a number 10 role. If we push Sturridge in then I wonder if it pushes Vardy out wide in which case he isn't effective.

There are two players that I think we are missing. Welbeck is one who exists and we will miss I don't think any player brings what he does - the other is almost a second Eric Dier - I almost feel like we need him in defence and midfield.

As I said it's not necessarily concerns over the team which could be put out - it's how I think Hodgson will try and play it.


OK I'm done: now you're talking about putting wingers in CM. :wtf: :shock:

You're either on a wind-up or utterly clueless.


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 7:40 pm 
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Well when I was talking about our midfield 3 you suggested that Sturridge and Lallana would bring a spark to it?

You did that - not me!


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 7:59 pm 
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lo36789 wrote:
Well when I was talking about our midfield 3 you suggested that Sturridge and Lallana would bring a spark to it?

You did that - not me!


We've obviously misunderstood each other then: I mentioned those players as they were the types of players who can bring a "spark" to the team, and I mentioned the wingers as they bring balance to the team by giving us more width.

But re-reading your post, you must have meant balance in centre midfield only but again that's bollocks because we have plenty of CMs of different types: Dier, Henderson, Milner, and Drinkwater are all more defensive type CMs, so we have 4 of those. Then Alli, Barkley, Lallana, and Wilshere are more attacking types who bring a "spark", plus I have a feeling he might play Rooney further back as more of an attacking midfielder so that makes 5 of those. Then he'll probably play with wingers, possibly sticking a pacey striker or two there or perhaps Sterling or Townsend, so that means we need less CMs.

So what the fuck are you on about?


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 8:15 pm 
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It would be interesting to see Alli, Rooney and Dier with Sterling behind Kane and Vardy up top.

I am not sure what it is that is missing and every variation that I pull together of the team has something which isn't sitting quite right.

All in all it can't be any worse than the World Cup and I was actually positive about that!


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 11:25 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:04 pm
Posts: 10667
Team Supported: Darlington
I think the fact is that we have a reasonable group of players with strengths and weaknesses.

Lo, you say there are players you don't expect to see in the squad, but you offer no viable alternative. Are you suggesting Hodgson picks only 15 players because you deem there to only be 15 international standard players available?!

I think Hodgson has picked pretty much the best available and I don't think there is much to disagree with other than the odd fringe player. Baines, Carrick, Defoe may be hard done by but equally they are unlikely to start games so why not give a younger player that squad place?

Shaw and Wellbeck are possibly the two who would've made a difference if fit, bit they're not, so tough s***.

Cahill has been exposed time and again by the best strikers, but he is a safe bet against the rest. I'd Gamble on Stones and Smalling personally but if Cahill gets the not I have no objections.

I don't think Henderson offers much. I'd put Dier and either Delph or Milner in midfield. Full backs on either side are much of a muchness but I'd go with the Spurs lads to try to build familiarity alongside Dier and then Alli, Rooney and Sterling behind Kane. I don't think Llallana has ever kicked on since he left Southampton and Vardy will be an impact player in my opinion.

To summarise

Hart

Walker
Smalling
Stones
Rose

Delph
Dier

Sterling
Alli
Rooney

Kane

A team that should be able to hold its own. Far from the favourites but hopefully a side that can make their mark and have a good world cup in two years.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

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On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:
Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

DC


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 Post subject: Re: EURO 2016
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 6:19 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:58 pm
Posts: 7422
Location: Liverpool
Team Supported: Darlington
No hold on. I said it was a poor squad on the whole but that Hodgson has probably picked the best available.

There are a couple you might have swapped in but the players that would have made the difference aren't there.

It started a debate anyway - I think I have been misinterpreted as saying all the player chosen are terrible and that I had a better plan - I don't. It was a throwaway comment as seeing the squad down on paper was a realisation, it was always going to happen when I was playing on one of them squad choosers I got equally stuck in midfield and centre defence.


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