Give the fans a chance to have their say on our way forward.

[ted_do]

The morning after the night before, I have to ask which is the bigger prize, Keeping a shell company called Darlington Football club and gaining a place in the lower reaches of non league, or Liquidation and using all or part of the pledged 400k to start building a new ground within Darlington and a place in the even lower reaches of non league.
I would go for the latter even if it means no football team next year. As at least once a ground is started we can see a future and have a goal, if we could find some free council or donated land inside Darlo to build on I am sure we could get a pitch down, floodlights up, fences up, hard standing around, and the beginnings of a main stand for 400k. We may even be able to attract some grant and get the main stand built. This would give us something along the lines of Bishops ground and that would do me.

I also believe we need to be operating as a newly invigorated supporters trust under the supporters direct umbrella like all the other phoenix clubs have, I don’t think doing it our way with 1883 has worked. I just hope 1883 don’t give all our money away before we have had chance to think about other options.

Before Mr Mckenna responds I am not having a go at 1883 I believe you are doing your best whilst others keep moving the goal posts, my plea to you is don’t blow all our cash on paying off DFCs historic debts in return for a shell company, as I cant see us ever raising this amount again so the cash rather than the name DFC is the prize right now.

[Robbie Painter]

The possibilities:

a) CVA agreed with Raj + suitable BSN graded ground found.
Result: £500k cost + BSN football + Raj clauses (cut of potential Dan Burn money + Arena redevelopment cut (!!!))
UNLIKELY

b) CVA not agreed. Football creditors repaid only. FA places us in Evo-stik Northern Premier League.
Result: £250k cost + Evo NPL football + local ground share + no Raj clauses + possible future income from Dan Burn/Michael Smith/David Stockdale
POSSIBLE

c) CVA not agreed. Football creditors repaid only. FA places us in Evo-stik division 1 or lower.
Result: £250k cost + Evo NPL football + local ground share + no Raj clauses + possible future income from Dan Burn/Michael Smith/David Stockdale
POSSIBLE

d) CVA not agreed. Liquidation. No football in 2012/13. Phoenix club formed. FA places us in Northern league division 1/2 for 13/14 season (2+ steps below Evo NPL). Maybe could play in Darlo from start.
POSSIBLE

-----

For me, on balance, option B is the best possible outcome. If the FA say we have to start in the Evo-stik division 1 or lower however then reluctantly I would have to go down the phoenix club route as I don't think it would be an economic use of £250k to pay off the football creditors and start from such a low division whilst playing outside of Darlington.

I can't agree with ted_do on going down a supporters trust route. I find the model restrictive and too focused on voting rights of members versus economic rights of shareholders. It ultimately means that you don't maximise the potential to raise funds.

To highlight that point - when building/purchasing infrastructure such as stadiums even Supporters Trust clubs have gone down the limited company route. AFC Wimbledon are a prime example of that.

[Jaydeeiommi]

If I understand options b/c and d all involve need to build a new ground. Option d we lose DFC as a name but have an extra £250k towards cost of new ground. I think given our current circumstances funding a new ground in Darlington is our biggest and most difficult objective (given the numbers I have seen mentioned on this board).

[DTID]

The possibilities:

a) CVA agreed with Raj + suitable BSN graded ground found.
Result: £500k cost + BSN football + Raj clauses (cut of potential Dan Burn money + Arena redevelopment cut (!!!))
UNLIKELY

b) CVA not agreed. Football creditors repaid only. FA places us in Evo-stik Northern Premier League.
Result: £250k cost + Evo NPL football + local ground share + no Raj clauses + possible future income from Dan Burn/Michael Smith/David Stockdale
POSSIBLE

c) CVA not agreed. Football creditors repaid only. FA places us in Evo-stik division 1 or lower.
Result: £250k cost + Evo NPL football + local ground share + no Raj clauses + possible future income from Dan Burn/Michael Smith/David Stockdale
POSSIBLE

d) CVA not agreed. Liquidation. No football in 2012/13. Phoenix club formed. FA places us in Northern league division 1/2 for 13/14 season (2+ steps below Evo NPL). Maybe could play in Darlo from start.
POSSIBLE

-----

For me, on balance, option B is the best possible outcome. If the FA say we have to start in the Evo-stik division 1 or lower however then reluctantly I would have to go down the phoenix club route as I don't think it would be an economic use of £250k to pay off the football creditors and start from such a low division whilst playing outside of Darlington.

I can't agree with ted_do on going down a supporters trust route. I find the model restrictive and too focused on voting rights of members versus economic rights of shareholders. It ultimately means that you don't maximise the potential to raise funds.

To highlight that point - when building/purchasing infrastructure such as stadiums even Supporters Trust clubs have gone down the limited company route. AFC Wimbledon are a prime example of that.

Well summed up. Can we make this a stickie? There are so many questions on different threads where people are unsure of the options and what each 1 means.

Scenario B. Would be the best outcome all round but the likelihood is it will be C. I don't care. As long as we have a club and we don't have to start from scratch.

Those player clauses would raise much more than £250k once activated. Therefore we should bite the bullet. Then we will have an additional £250k to plan for next season (if we can keep local businesses interested) and the Trust money to go into the kitty. At end of May its essential for 1883 to sort out season ticket prices and sales to boost the kitty, employ a manager and then crack on.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

[super_les_mcjannet]

Not part of the pull your money out brigade etc, but I do believe the above scenarios have to be addressed before we now decide to spend the money. As even if we pay the footbal debts we are still pissing off the 260k approx non footbal debts - which could well be local companys who we need on our side if we continue as DFC or went for the Phoenix club.

I think 1883 have done everything possible, Raj has caused this and now as a Community Club we need to amke a decision together on where we go.

[princes town]

The possibilities:

a) CVA agreed with Raj + suitable BSN graded ground found.
Result: £500k cost + BSN football + Raj clauses (cut of potential Dan Burn money + Arena redevelopment cut (!!!))
UNLIKELY

b) CVA not agreed. Football creditors repaid only. FA places us in Evo-stik Northern Premier League.
Result: £250k cost + Evo NPL football + local ground share + no Raj clauses + possible future income from Dan Burn/Michael Smith/David Stockdale
POSSIBLE

c) CVA not agreed. Football creditors repaid only. FA places us in Evo-stik division 1 or lower.
Result: £250k cost + Evo NPL football + local ground share + no Raj clauses + possible future income from Dan Burn/Michael Smith/David Stockdale
POSSIBLE

d) CVA not agreed. Liquidation. No football in 2012/13. Phoenix club formed. FA places us in Northern league division 1/2 for 13/14 season (2+ steps below Evo NPL). Maybe could play in Darlo from start.
POSSIBLE

-----

For me, on balance, option B is the best possible outcome. If the FA say we have to start in the Evo-stik division 1 or lower however then reluctantly I would have to go down the phoenix club route as I don't think it would be an economic use of £250k to pay off the football creditors and start from such a low division whilst playing outside of Darlington.

I can't agree with ted_do on going down a supporters trust route. I find the model restrictive and too focused on voting rights of members versus economic rights of shareholders. It ultimately means that you don't maximise the potential to raise funds.

To highlight that point - when building/purchasing infrastructure such as stadiums even Supporters Trust clubs have gone down the limited company route. AFC Wimbledon are a prime example of that.

Excellent email. Thanks for explaining the different scenarios. It seems that rangers are also going through a similar decision - CVA or NEWCO. Reading the Guardian it seems that the normal route for english clubs in administration is a phoenix club. I am inclined toward option (d) to be frank.

Ii've always thought of the community model as the perfect form of club ownership but i can see your point about economic rights. Interestesting point. thw compormise would be that no one individual has a majority vote (50+1 rule) rather than restrict ownership to 15 per cent.

[DarloD]

A good sum up but what will be 1883's route?

[lo36789]

b) CVA not agreed. Football creditors repaid only. FA places us in Evo-stik Northern Premier League.
Result: £250k cost + Evo NPL football + local ground share + no Raj clauses + possible future income from Dan Burn/Michael Smith/David Stockdale
POSSIBLE

c) CVA not agreed. Football creditors repaid only. FA places us in Evo-stik division 1 or lower.
Result: £250k cost + Evo NPL football + local ground share + no Raj clauses + possible future income from Dan Burn/Michael Smith/David Stockdale
POSSIBLE

There is more too it than this which makes this the best option. They are basically the same option just dependant on the FAs decision really.

Firstly we are not paying off out non-footballing creditors within the CVA, however, as far as I am concerned surely there is nothing stopping an independent body paying these local creditors their money back over the longer term. Could a 'Darlington Football Club Creditors Repayment Fund/Company' be set up that does it's own fundraising longer term. Just a thought.

Secondly, the council have been on side previously in terms of relaxing covenants so that S&S can get their money back, so long as they still gave a decent cut to the council. The council will need to do something productive with this money. Previously there was someone blocking the way because they wanted their own cut - this person won't be around anymore to demand this.
The council will be helping create jobs/enterprise with whatever redevelopment happens on the arena site and additional moneys paid over could be used to help develop a joint rugby/football community site.
Seriously how much will it cost to upgrade Blackwell meadows to the standard required, probably not a great deal and given £2million was previously bandied about as a figure the council could feasibly make from arena land sale I think that will be sufficient.

Its not all doom and gloom. The only thing that is important is can a CVA be forced through by the sounds of it yes. At the end of the day RS has already acted to the detriment of creditors in racking up the debts, from an official line he would now be refusing their one measly opportunity to get some money back in a CVA surely that brings very large question marks over his conduct...or not?

[super_les_mcjannet]

b) CVA not agreed. Football creditors repaid only. FA places us in Evo-stik Northern Premier League.
Result: £250k cost + Evo NPL football + local ground share + no Raj clauses + possible future income from Dan Burn/Michael Smith/David Stockdale
POSSIBLE

c) CVA not agreed. Football creditors repaid only. FA places us in Evo-stik division 1 or lower.
Result: £250k cost + Evo NPL football + local ground share + no Raj clauses + possible future income from Dan Burn/Michael Smith/David Stockdale
POSSIBLE

There is more too it than this which makes this the best option. They are basically the same option just dependant on the FAs decision really.

Firstly we are not paying off out non-footballing creditors within the CVA, however, as far as I am concerned surely there is nothing stopping an independent body paying these local creditors their money back over the longer term. Could a 'Darlington Football Club Creditors Repayment Fund/Company' be set up that does it's own fundraising longer term. Just a thought.

Secondly, the council have been on side previously in terms of relaxing covenants so that S&S can get their money back, so long as they still gave a decent cut to the council. The council will need to do something productive with this money. Previously there was someone blocking the way because they wanted their own cut - this person won't be around anymore to demand this.
The council will be helping create jobs/enterprise with whatever redevelopment happens on the arena site and additional moneys paid over could be used to help develop a joint rugby/football community site.
Seriously how much will it cost to upgrade Blackwell meadows to the standard required, probably not a great deal and given £2million was previously bandied about as a figure the council could feasibly make from arena land sale I think that will be sufficient.

Its not all doom and gloom. The only thing that is important is can a CVA be forced through by the sounds of it yes. At the end of the day RS has already acted to the detriment of creditors in racking up the debts, from an official line he would now be refusing their one measly opportunity to get some money back in a CVA surely that brings very large question marks over his conduct...or not?

Problem is so many promises broken (Raj), plans failed.

What makes us think in times of austerity the council would happily create some thing for the 2k people who care about football in Darlington. Surely the other 98k of residents may not want them to spend this windfall on a football club, would rather they increased children services or something.

I hope the council would, but this needs to be agreed and the deal signed. Jesus I would watch us play in a field in say Catterick for a season if it meant we were going to get a good ground in Darlington back. However without knowing an agreement in place, I just can't beleive it will happen anymore.

[lo36789]

Surely the other 98k of residents may not want them to spend this windfall on a football club, would rather they increased children services or something.

Interesting and I do see where your coming from...but from another point of view.

Why were the covenants created? well surely in theory to protect sporting interest in the town that is why it can only be used for leisure/sport or whatever the wording is on the covenant.

Well surely by relaxing these the council has a bit of an obligation to re-invest the windfall in community sports? I don't actually think it would take the full amount to get the ground up-to-scratch so it could be used for initiatives to help children through sport etc.

[Mazz Javerick]

Now this is a story all about how
My life got flipped turned upside down
And I'd like to take a minute just sit right there
I'll tell you how I became the prince of a town called Bel-Air

In West Philadelphia born and raised
On the playground is where I spent most of my days
Chillin' out maxin' relaxin' all cool
And all shootin' some b-ball outside of the school
When a couple of guys who were up to no good
Started makin' trouble in my neighborhood
I got in one little fight and my mom got scared
And said you're movin' with your auntie and uncle in Bel-Air

I whistled for a cab and when it came near
The license plate said "Fresh", and had dice in the mirror
If anything I could say that this cab was rare
But I thought nah forget it, yo home to Bel-Air!

I pulled up to the house about 7 or 8
And I yelled to the cabbie, "Yo Holmes, smell ya later!"
Looked at my kingdom I was finally there
To sit on my throne as the Prince of Bel-Air

Yeah nice one mate, I agree

[princes town]

The possibilities:

a) CVA agreed with Raj + suitable BSN graded ground found.
Result: £500k cost + BSN football + Raj clauses (cut of potential Dan Burn money + Arena redevelopment cut (!!!))
UNLIKELY

b) CVA not agreed. Football creditors repaid only. FA places us in Evo-stik Northern Premier League.
Result: £250k cost + Evo NPL football + local ground share + no Raj clauses + possible future income from Dan Burn/Michael Smith/David Stockdale
POSSIBLE

c) CVA not agreed. Football creditors repaid only. FA places us in Evo-stik division 1 or lower.
Result: £250k cost + Evo NPL football + local ground share + no Raj clauses + possible future income from Dan Burn/Michael Smith/David Stockdale
POSSIBLE

d) CVA not agreed. Liquidation. No football in 2012/13. Phoenix club formed. FA places us in Northern league division 1/2 for 13/14 season (2+ steps below Evo NPL). Maybe could play in Darlo from start.
POSSIBLE

So which option are we talking after Harveys recent announcement?

[Robbie Painter]

b, c or d

[princes town]

b, c or d

So what will happen now. Presumably we have to agree another CVA for footie creditors only. That is our minimum commitment basically.

[Robbie Painter]

It isn't a CVA for football creditors - we simply have to repay them in full before mid June.

Before 1883 do that they would need to secure a ground share and receive assurances from the FA over which division we would be placed in.

If its at too low a level then liquidating the club and starting again in the 2013/14 season would be preferable.

[super_les_mcjannet]

It isn't a CVA for football creditors - we simply have to repay them in full before mid June.

Before 1883 do that they would need to secure a ground share and receive assurances from the FA over which division we would be placed in.

If its at too low a level then liquidating the club and starting again in the 2013/14 season would be preferable.

I struggle to argue with this plan. Other than we also need some form of plan for new Stadium, not just we are looking into it. We need council support.

[still_darlo]

I wish we could stop talking about "football creditors" and "non-football creditors", and start naming them. Any corrections welcome.

The first 250,000 of money raised surely will go / has already gone to Harvey Madden (fees anything between zero and 250,000 - isn't it time we knew this?), the players (November to January's salaries?), Mark Cooper (35,000?) and Richard Dryden (25,000?). Or are Cooper and Dryden "non-football" who also stand to get nothing?

Which leaves us with about 80,000 to set up a new club with and /or pay off others we owe money - local suppliers. Raj Singh is not a creditor in my eyes - he is just the person who actually owes all of this money.

Is this close?

[princes town]

It isn't a CVA for football creditors - we simply have to repay them in full before mid June.

Before 1883 do that they would need to secure a ground share and receive assurances from the FA over which division we would be placed in.

If its at too low a level then liquidating the club and starting again in the 2013/14 season would be preferable.

I think i have it now. How is the administrator paid in liquidation? Will he be taking most the gate money?

[Robbie Painter]

It isn't a CVA for football creditors - we simply have to repay them in full before mid June.

Before 1883 do that they would need to secure a ground share and receive assurances from the FA over which division we would be placed in.

If its at too low a level then liquidating the club and starting again in the 2013/14 season would be preferable.

got it. Basically we keep the 400k+ less the money for the administrator

and less the money for the football creditors (i.e. the players & other clubs but not Cooper or Dryden who are classed as non-football creditors).

[Fibonacci0112358]

It isn't a CVA for football creditors - we simply have to repay them in full before mid June.

Before 1883 do that they would need to secure a ground share and receive assurances from the FA over which division we would be placed in.

If its at too low a level then liquidating the club and starting again in the 2013/14 season would be preferable.

got it. Basically we keep the 400k+ less the money for the administrator

and less the money for the football creditors (i.e. the players & other clubs but not Cooper or Dryden who are classed as non-football creditors).

Football creditors will probably end up with nowt as well.