mr upshall,Dubai

[theoriginalfatcat]

I am sure MG said at the fans forum that a playing budget of 750,000 would be required to sustain a team at Conference level, that is a heap of cash year in year out, I am not sure how much revenue say a 2500 crowd would bring in and any sponsorship we will attract.

We can do that! Not now obviously, but at the appropriate time.

And if we can't (which we can) then ultimately we will end up with the team we deserve, which is what was first mooted when we set out post meltdown.

[Andrew Wilkinson]

We're jumping the gun talking about the Conference let alone Football League. The here and now is enough of a challenge. We have been knocked out of both major cups cheaply, the return to Darlo has been delayed, and we are at the time of year where postponements are hitting cash flow hard.
Top priority is not even getting to Blackwell - it's surviving the winter. We've to get through the next three months, and hope that by then the Blackwell move is agreed. Then and only then can we focus on getting to town, then rebuilding the club with increased crowds and better revenue opportunities.

[Yarblockos]

We're jumping the gun talking about the Conference let alone Football League. The here and now is enough of a challenge. We have been knocked out of both major cups cheaply, the return to Darlo has been delayed, and we are at the time of year where postponements are hitting cash flow hard.
Top priority is not even getting to Blackwell - it's surviving the winter. We've to get through the next three months, and hope that by then the Blackwell move is agreed. Then and only then can we focus on getting to town, then rebuilding the club with increased crowds and better revenue opportunities.

Bit dramatic. The cash reserves we have mean that we are in no danger of not surviving the winter!

[lo36789]

Ok so using a conservative £12 per head for 2500 times 23 home games, that comes to £690k, so not a million miles off £750k and that's before sponsorship, etc.

Don't forget the tax man - £552k.

Is £12 per head even conservative assuming it would be £15 and £8 we already know that most of our admissions are concessions because of previously reported average ticket revenues. I reckon we're looking at £10 per head before tax or £460k in total.

[Darlofan97]

We're jumping the gun talking about the Conference let alone Football League. The here and now is enough of a challenge. We have been knocked out of both major cups cheaply, the return to Darlo has been delayed, and we are at the time of year where postponements are hitting cash flow hard.
Top priority is not even getting to Blackwell - it's surviving the winter. We've to get through the next three months, and hope that by then the Blackwell move is agreed. Then and only then can we focus on getting to town, then rebuilding the club with increased crowds and better revenue opportunities.

With significant cash reserves in the bank and being debt-free I should think that our short-term future is secure.

However obviously in the long-term the accounts are showing that our current situation isn't fully sustainable without a cut in the playing budget. The real concern for me isn't the upcoming postponements, but where we will be in the long-term.

[Andrew Wilkinson]

Cash reserves last only so long - and might be needed for future development. We'll find out soon enough what the short term future holds, but what concerns me is discussions of Conference football (two divisions up from where we are now) and big budgets (several times the amount we can currently raise), when we are currently living above our means.

[Trike1]

The cash reserves in the bank are to fund blackwell. any monies spent from that pot will have to be replaced for us to move home eventually....
if we have cash in the bank apart from blackwell money then why do we have to remove 50k from there each year?

[coles]

I think that as fans we need to apply a touch of realism to our situation, l like everyone pines for the day we are a league club. Is it possible???? Yes of course it is but maybe not for a very long time.

We are a volunteer run club but that resource is suffering from burn out, if you look at the amount of people involved now in the running of the club its probably down to a dozen hardcore volunteers. The appetite to get involved has faded hugely since the Northern League days. Without an influx of support the club can only do so much on limited resources. We need more volunteers to get involved and ideally we need to expand the board, and get some experts to help out. Unfortunately those people do not want to come on board or if they do then they would want a fee. The volunteers only seem to step forward when there is a crisis and the ones who have been involved previously are fatigued from their involvement. This is a typical situation with fan ran clubs.

Getting back to Darlo is massive we are financially ok for this season, but after that we need to do something different, lets remember the 500 club has seen the season ticket money for next season and beyond accounted for. So we need sponsorship and other income streams however unless we are back in Darlington many businesses have already explained they won't entertain us.

We all harbour ambitions to be back in the conference or beyond but be realistic to do that we need a budget of £750k to be competitive, to get promoted you are looking at £1million. The fantasists who think coming home will increase our gates dramically need to think again, we will get an influx of maybe 1,000 to begin with but then once we put the prices up over £12 they will stop coming.
Our batting average of crowds has always been around the 2k mark it is not going to ever be anymore than that so we will find our level if we remain self financed.

I can see the day coming in the next few years where a businessman invests in the club, the key will be how we allow that but keep the fan owned emphasis. We should enjoy the moment of two promotions and a fantastic ride but we need to stop thinking short term and look long term. We need a long term strategy of how we will finance a return up the leagues.

[Mr_Tibbs]

I can see the day coming in the next few years where a businessman invests in the club, the key will be how we allow that but keep the fan owned emphasis. We should enjoy the moment of two promotions and a fantastic ride but we need to stop thinking short term and look long term. We need a long term strategy of how we will finance a return up the leagues.

Great post. I am reminded of Paul Wildes offer which broke down because it was conditional on Singh not wanting his money back...

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/sport/ ... save_club/

[theoriginalfatcat]

Don't forget the tax man - £552k.

Does the ticket price includes VAT ???

[SecretShopper]

We all harbour ambitions to be back in the conference or beyond but be realistic to do that we need a budget of £750k to be competitive, to get promoted you are looking at £1million. The fantasists who think coming home will increase our gates dramically need to think again, we will get an influx of maybe 1,000 to begin with but then once we put the prices up over £12 they will stop coming.
Our batting average of crowds has always been around the 2k mark it is not going to ever be anymore than that so we will find our level if we remain self financed.

For the most part, I agree.

For the first time in 3 years we are being forced to balance expectation with realism, we are very much in limbo right now.

We should not lose sight of what is immediately in front of us IE possible points deduction as well as the ground grading situation which could see us relegated no matter what next season if we were to be promoted.

We're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

The importance of the development at Blackwell Meadow, now especially, cannot be understated. Is it a solution to all our problems? No. But it is vital that we are A. Back in the town and B. In a ground that meets the correct grading requirements. It gives us the foundations to build off at the very least. The sole focus right now has to be on achieving this, it's a MUST.

We have to walk before we can run so, as coles said, there is little sense in even talking about the Conference North or the Conference for that matter because right now we are on a hiding to nothing, that is the harsh reality of it.

[Yarblockos]

We all harbour ambitions to be back in the conference or beyond but be realistic to do that we need a budget of £750k to be competitive, to get promoted you are looking at £1million. The fantasists who think coming home will increase our gates dramically need to think again, we will get an influx of maybe 1,000 to begin with but then once we put the prices up over £12 they will stop coming.
Our batting average of crowds has always been around the 2k mark it is not going to ever be anymore than that so we will find our level if we remain self financed.

I can see the day coming in the next few years where a businessman invests in the club, the key will be how we allow that but keep the fan owned emphasis. We should enjoy the moment of two promotions and a fantastic ride but we need to stop thinking short term and look long term. We need a long term strategy of how we will finance a return up the leagues.

Its not completely out of this world to think we can get into the conference on a sustainable budget. The average attendance in Conference North is 876 (and that is largely inflated by FC United). We are always going to be one of the best supported clubs in the non-league, and therefore its not crazy to think we can rise into the conference without having to run up debts. I agree that promotion into the football league is a long way off and would require investment and a full-time squad. But nevertheless, regardless of the gates we could get at Blackwell, we should be able to fund a squad that can compete for promotion into the conference based on our current gates at Bishop.

[theoriginalfatcat]

Its not completely out of this world to think we can get into the conference on a sustainable budget. The average attendance in Conference North is 876 (and that is largely inflated by FC United). We are always going to be one of the best supported clubs in the non-league, and therefore its not crazy to think we can rise into the conference without having to run up debts. I agree that promotion into the football league is a long way off and would require investment and a full-time squad. But nevertheless, regardless of the gates we could get at Blackwell, we should be able to fund a squad that can compete for promotion into the conference based on our current gates at Bishop.

Great post

And I would add - we would not only have more fans than our rivals in the Conference North but also better sponsorship/contacts/management and other important stuff, as we are traditionally geared up for bigger and better things.

To me, The Conference is achievable in the way in which we're going, but to bring this thread back to Mr Upshall - his involvement really has thrown a spanner in the works. We might have been getting ready to move in at Blackwell if he hadn't started to woo DRFC.

[Quakerz]

We all harbour ambitions to be back in the conference or beyond but be realistic to do that we need a budget of £750k to be competitive, to get promoted you are looking at £1million. The fantasists who think coming home will increase our gates dramically need to think again, we will get an influx of maybe 1,000 to begin with but then once we put the prices up over £12 they will stop coming.
Our batting average of crowds has always been around the 2k mark it is not going to ever be anymore than that so we will find our level if we remain self financed.

For the most part, I agree.

For the first time in 3 years we are being forced to balance expectation with realism, we are very much in limbo right now.

We should not lose sight of what is immediately in front of us IE possible points deduction as well as the ground grading situation which could see us relegated no matter what next season if we were to be promoted.

We're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

The importance of the development at Blackwell Meadow, now especially, cannot be understated. Is it a solution to all our problems? No. But it is vital that we are A. Back in the town and B. In a ground that meets the correct grading requirements. It gives us the foundations to build off at the very least. The sole focus right now has to be on achieving this, it's a MUST.

We have to walk before we can run so, as coles said, there is little sense in even talking about the Conference North or the Conference for that matter because right now we are on a hiding to nothing, that is the harsh reality of it.

If Carlsberg did first posts...

I completely agree.

I've been saying all season that I'm in no rush to go up to the next level because of the ground situation and some people have reacted like I'm mental.

The team on the pitch is excellent but the club as a whole is not ready for the next level with no appropriate ground yet sorted.

[Magical Quakers]

Its not completely out of this world to think we can get into the conference on a sustainable budget. The average attendance in Conference North is 876 (and that is largely inflated by FC United). We are always going to be one of the best supported clubs in the non-league, and therefore its not crazy to think we can rise into the conference without having to run up debts.

The trouble is that with football attendances only tell half the story. If clubs were only allowed to spend what they brought in themselves through the gate, or cup runs, then yes we would have a chance.

Unfortunately football is broken and that isn't how it works. Nearly all clubs in all leagues are bankrolled by someone. Just look at out three rivals in the last three seasons for proof - Spennymoor, Curzon and Salford.

Unless something is done about this then I think we need to be realistic and not spend beyond our means, living with the consequences of that.

The only thing we should spend money on is our ground in Darlington. Which as we all know is not proving easy and is not helped by Mr Upshall sticking his nose in.

[lo36789]

Curzon? Half their players are on 30 bob a week and no contract. I am not sure I would call them out as bankrolled!

[AIDO]

... FCUM and Chester and a few others are fan owned and they bank roll their clubs ... Its the way of it and the way we are trying to go ... Getting back into town quickly is a must, so that we can get long lost fans back on board to help us "bank roll" our own club the best we can.

We need to break the mentality that someone else is going to put money into Darlo .... Its US, and we need to be building on ways to do it ... and looking at ways to building up our already impressive support further ... getting back to town will be a major step, but we need to follow methods of other successful fan owned clubs.

Talking to fans of FCUM ... They "subscribe and invest" into their club ... they don't see it as cap in hand fund raising and bucket rattling, which we've sadly grown up with, and now even more sadly, see it as being the norm ... with outsiders rolling their eyes and saying .... "Here we go again ...... poor old Darlo" ....

We have to beak that mould ..........

[QuakerPete]

Must say I'm not as confident as some in this thread that our crowds will increase to 2,000-2,500 regularly upon our return to Darlo. I just don't see 1200 fans waiting for this magical return to the town to re-establish their commitment to the club. Hope I'm totally wrong

[Quaker0006]

Must say I'm not as confident as some in this thread that our crowds will increase to 2,000-2,500 regularly upon our return to Darlo. I just don't see 1200 fans waiting for this magical return to the town to re-establish their commitment to the club. Hope I'm totally wrong

Absolutely. Considering most of the conference games in 2010 we were getting around the 1600-1700 mark where would 2500 come from at a lower level. crazy

[AndyPark]

I think we averaged just over 2000 in that final Conference season.

[Quaker0006]

Because we had a couple of big games such as York and Grimsby in that season but week in and out it wasn't as high as that being below 2k in most instances and that's at conference level

[divas]

We were also charging something like £15 to watch us get battered every week. I don't think we'll attract that many fans straight away, apart from the first game but there's definite scope to build the attendance toward the 2K + mark.

Look around HP and you'll see it's the under 30 demographic that's missing. The hope is that once we're back in town that missing segment of fans will begin to return. It's vital we do what we can to get young adults back following the football club if we are going to prosper over the next 10 + years.

[HarryCharltonsCat]

Its not completely out of this world to think we can get into the conference on a sustainable budget. The average attendance in Conference North is 876 (and that is largely inflated by FC United). We are always going to be one of the best supported clubs in the non-league, and therefore its not crazy to think we can rise into the conference without having to run up debts. I agree that promotion into the football league is a long way off and would require investment and a full-time squad. But nevertheless, regardless of the gates we could get at Blackwell, we should be able to fund a squad that can compete for promotion into the conference based on our current gates at Bishop.

Great post

And I would add - we would not only have more fans than our rivals in the Conference North but also better sponsorship/contacts/management and other important stuff, as we are traditionally geared up for bigger and better things.

To me, The Conference is achievable in the way in which we're going, but to bring this thread back to Mr Upshall - his involvement really has thrown a spanner in the works. We might have been getting ready to move in at Blackwell if he hadn't started to woo DRFC.

Stockport County probably thought the same thing. Haven't been near promotion yet.

[lo36789]

Talking to fans of FCUM ... They "subscribe and invest" into their club ... they don't see it as cap in hand fund raising and bucket rattling, which we've sadly grown up with, and now even more sadly, see it as being the norm

This, too many are seeing that simply buying a ticket to games etc. is an investment. No that is actually purchasing a product and using that product.

If you can't invest money, invest your other resources (skills etc.), if you can't invest them then invest your time. Even if that time is simply the time to use the resources provided by the supporters group to advertise the club to others.

Absolutely. Considering most of the conference games in 2010 we were getting around the 1600-1700 mark where would 2500 come from at a lower level. crazy

Quakerz is better at reeling off the figures. Newport and Maidstone both saw substantial increases in attendance on the return home, considerably more than their final seasons at previous grounds. Chester and Halifax also saw an increase on their final conference seasons immediately on restarting.

The evidence suggests a club with it's core in the community, playing in that community will be supported by that community.

We are supporters not consumers.

[Darlofan97]

Must say I'm not as confident as some in this thread that our crowds will increase to 2,000-2,500 regularly upon our return to Darlo. I just don't see 1200 fans waiting for this magical return to the town to re-establish their commitment to the club. Hope I'm totally wrong

Absolutely. Considering most of the conference games in 2010 we were getting around the 1600-1700 mark where would 2500 come from at a lower level. crazy

In both Conference seasons (2010/2011 & 2011/2012) we averaged around 1,800 & 1,700 HOME fans (taking out the Fleetwood & York games). This was whilst charging £18/£10/£5 I believe.

Should the football club be playing back in Darlington at BM then I see no reason why a winning team at say £10 a head could not attract anywhere between 2,000-2,500 fans. We all saw the appetite for the football club when selling tickets for the play-off final, where regulars could not even get a ticket.

The crowds of Chester, Halifax and Hereford all significantly increased despite dropping down 3/4 leagues and not having the benefit of increased away followings. The difference between us and them is that they remained in their home town/city.

See Maidstone United to see how crowds increase when the football club returns home.

[spen666]

....

Look around HP and you'll see it's the under 30 demographic that's missing. The hope is that once we're back in town that missing segment of fans will begin to return. It's vital we do what we can to get young adults back following the football club if we are going to prosper over the next 10 + years.

I think the under 30 demographic as you put it is missing from lots of football clubs these days and Darlo are not unique in this.

Too much football on TV and people not prepared to make the effort to get out of the house and go to games etc. probably all contribute.

[spen666]

...

We are supporters not consumers.

All those who post on here may be supporters, but its those who are consumers that you need to get back.

Supporters generally stick with their club, but consumers don't have the same loyalty. Hence why clubs get full houses when its going well but play in half empty grounds otherwise

[Alfie]

I see Bolton are in trouble after their owner decided he was unable/unwilling to fund them any more - having already written off a substantial sum (I think £85million! was mentioned). Like any club funded by an individual/company/sovereign wealth fund they are one decision away from financial trouble. This is true even if they are well meaning rich supporter, developer who wants a return on his investment, or rich playboy using the club like his latest toy.

I have enjoyed the last few years more than any other time I've followed the club - a winning team obviously helps, but more than that we have the experience of a sense of ownership, people running the club who you can talk to, and who will - as far as they can - tell us what is going on, and players who want to play for us, rather than journeymen in it for their pay cheques.

If the price for maintaining our current ownership and funding model, with the inevitable budgetary limitations this means, is to stay in or around our current position rather than get some form of outside funding/ownership and reach the dizzy heights of league 2 - than I'd opt for what we have now.

The object of the exercise is to create a club that is sustainable for decades and longer through its own efforts, not to get as far up the pyramid as we can in the next few years - we have neither the funds nor the club infrastructure to progress much further in the short term.

[lo36789]

...

We are supporters not consumers.

All those who post on here may be supporters, but its those who are consumers that you need to get back.

If you can't invest money, invest your other resources (skills etc.), if you can't invest them then invest your time. Even if that time is simply the time to use the resources provided by the supporters group to advertise the club to others

[Neil Johnson]

The whole idea of having a stadium owned privately does not appeal to me. We will be effectively at the 'whim' of one man and his companies' performance.

The only way which this would work would be if the land was gifted back to the football club & asset locked. But this will not happen as they want to see a return on their investment.

No more extortion of the club's fans and the club's local suppliers!

If there is something positive to his schemes then he should have addressed it & agreed it in principle with DFC and the town council many months ago.

A Pooly, or a football hater, or both?