Raj Singh

[Darlo_Pete]

Remember as well, MG wasn't involved with the club during Raj Singh's reign.

He left after Houghton put us in administration. He may well have only followed what went on from afar and may not be fully versed on the ill-feeling between the fans and Singh.

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I doubt that! If he isnt then hes led a very sheltered life during the last few years.

We have to have faith in Martin Gray, after what he has done over the last 5 years. Do you think he would propose anything that would undermine what he has achieved for the club? If Gray has identified investors that can help us move forward up to the next level, then we have to listen to what is being proposed and if necessary take a leap of faith, however uncomfortable some of fans may feel.

This is how it is for me at the moment. See what the man has to say and what the long term strategy is before passing judgement.
Every one does things in life they regret that hurts other people. Maybe Singh is been deeply regretful for what he did and wants to prove that he isn't the person we think he is.

That last sentence Robbo, may not be too far from the truth, according to what I heard last Saturday.

[Mr_Tibbs]

Maybe it's Ted? (Dunno why I thought of him, I just did )

[Spyman]

Maybe it's Ted? (Dunno why I thought of him, I just did )

Well he still posts on here, so I'm sure he can confirm or deny (or just lie about it).

[Spyman]

Remember as well, MG wasn't involved with the club during Raj Singh's reign.

He left after Houghton put us in administration. He may well have only followed what went on from afar and may not be fully versed on the ill-feeling between the fans and Singh.

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Its often forgotten that Raj Singh was a director, shareholder (10%) & had a loan secured on the assets of the club (£625k) when it was placed into administration in early 2009. Martin Gray was assistant manager at the time.

We've had many terrible owners, directors & shareholders over the years. Raj Singh is the only one that I'm aware of to have been involved in 2 administrations.

Yes but he was seen as a minor investor and someone who came in at the time to help the club out, injecting some extra funds.

When he took over from Houghton as owner in chief, he was given the usual hero status assigned to new owners. I remember long-serving staff within the club at that time spoke very fondly of Raj Singh.

[al_quaker]

I happen to think Singh started out with decent enough intentions. However, his actions near the end of his reign were disgraceful, and he'd need some incredible mitigating circumstances for me to change my mind on him.

[lo36789]

I am conscious we have to be careful as this site was repeatedly threatened with libel action about comments made about RS at the time of last admin. I'll be honest, my opinion, was that the club became a bargaining chips between the buddies Houghton and Singh to get favour with the Council.

Houghton didn't get his way to get the development so threatened admin, passed the reigns to his pal Singh. There were comments around the time from Singh that the council wouldn't let him have his way to develop surrounding land "I'll have no option but to...". Who came back into the mix suddenly during our last admin - oh yes it was Singh's pal George...

This is all my opinion, and maybe things just happened like that by circumstance.

[Beano]

I could never welcome Singh, Haughton or Reynolds back.

[theoriginalfatcat]

It astounds me that this thread is still going. Some people on here have the memories of dead goldfish.....

Anyone that would consider for more than one micro second the idea of Singh coming back needs to be taken away to the funny farm!

It would be far too time consuming and depressing to list down here all the terrible things he got up to during the end game, but put it this way, very briefly -- we were left for dead, we all pulled together by starting from the very bottom again, 5 years later and after a lot of hard work and a lot of money gifted and a lot of good feeling built up again................guess who returns.

This would be the joke that trumps M.G's joke a million times over.

[roadrunner]

Going to be a bigger thread next week when he is revealed with his Yarm consortium next week including mclaren and hodgy.

[darlo reborn]

Might need a bigger laptop LOL

[Yarblockos]

Would it be acceptable if certain conditions were attached to Singh's involvement? I'm thinking in particular something like a requirement that he was not allowed to "loan" money to the club, but everything he did invest had to given as a "gift". Thereby he cannot be considered as a creditor. Given that last time he promised he wouldn't ask for any of the millions back then put himself forward as the major creditor. I don't see how we could live with the danger that Singh could have the chance to sink us again.

[shawry]

I want an investor to be able to loan to the club, but I'd want it to be in the same way we do. So it's only repaid if the club can afford and a max withdrawal per year.



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[Mr_Tibbs]

It would take a pretty much unanimous vote to allow one investor or another to take control of the club, and it has to be one or none. It would only take a relatively small number of votes to stop an investor or group of investors from muscling their way in.

Let's wait and hear what the board's recommendation is. Investment in something which can be clearly demonstrated to be in the interest of the community, and which wouldn't require a vote on changing our ownership model would certainly get my vote.

We fans just need to be careful we don't split ourselves into two camps and walk blindfolded into a Scarborough situation because we didn't read the rules, which are quite clearly written to protect the community and to guard against people setting up Community Benefit Societies and then selling them off to benefit a smaller portion of that community.

[lo36789]

I want an investor to be able to loan to the club, but I'd want it to be in the same way we do. So it's only repaid if the club can afford and a max withdrawal per year.

The problem isn't the structure of loan repayment. Remember in our last admin we had £2.25m of debt. £2million was owed to a single person. You need the vote of 75% of creditors votes (by value) to accept a CVA.

That said if we could have bought the golden share as an asset from the club we could have just left admin without a CVA and started the next season with a 15 to 17 point deduction (depends if you are Leeds or Bournemouth...)

So maybe the critical things is that the 'golden share' never leaves the ownership of the Trust.

The thing is Mr Tibbs. As far as I am aware the DFCSG is the community benefit society. If somebody buys shares directly in Darlington Football Club 1883 Ltd (and as far as I am aware the vast majority of our £1million of share capital is unallocated) then the DFCSG is an irrelevance in that.

I don't think to get 51% stake in the club it would necessarily mean that the DFCSG shares would need to be sold. The investor could just purchase the unallocated share capital direct.

As things stand the articles of Darlington Football Club prevent this as they say a single individual cannot own more than whatever percentage. As has been said with 75% of votes of shareholders those articles can be changed.

[princes town]

You only have to look at some of the bankrolled small north east village clubs to appreciate the dangers of a private investor model. Private ownership putting in a lot if pounds to fund marquee players playing in front of a few fans. How does that work? It's not real. I think I'm with mikky on this. Pure vanity model. There is no alternative but to cut the playing budget which I realise upsets many fans

[Spyman]

A couple of theoretical points on Singh.

I wouldn't let him near the 'golden share',
I wouldn't let him 'loan' money to the club,
I wouldn't trust him to make decisions about paying suppliers.

[Mr_Tibbs]

The DFCSG own approximately 79% of the football club. It would require a vote on changing the ownership model of the DFCSG in order for them to sell any of that share to a private investor. That won't pass if a relatively small number of members decided they didn't want that to happen. From the discussion above I'd say that there'd be enough people to block any group which includes Raj Singh.

We need to bear that in mind but let's wait and see what the DFCSG recommend.

[TDS]

Hodgy is not involved directly but merely a vehicle for Gray to speak to the investor as far as I was aware.

I can only hope the guy that titles this thread isn't the guy involved as we are going to have to make a very tough decision soon and that may include losing Gray and management staff.

[Lawman3]

It astounds me that this thread is still going. Some people on here have the memories of dead goldfish.....

Anyone that would consider for more than one micro second the idea of Singh coming back needs to be taken away to the funny farm!

It would be far too time consuming and depressing to list down here all the terrible things he got up to during the end game, but put it this way, very briefly -- we were left for dead, we all pulled together by starting from the very bottom again, 5 years later and after a lot of hard work and a lot of money gifted and a lot of good feeling built up again................guess who returns.

This would be the joke that trumps M.G's joke a million times over.

This^

Raj Singh returning is a red line that cannot be crossed.

[lo36789]

The DFCSG own approximately 79% of the football club. It would require a vote on changing the ownership model of the DFCSG in order for them to sell any of that share to a private investor. That won't pass if a relatively small number of members decided they didn't want that to happen.

And what I am saying I don't think you need to buy the DFCSG share to take 51% ownership. Couldn't more ordinary shares be issued and bought?

For £300,000 you could buy 300,000 shares in Darlington 1883 Limited and you would have a controlling share of the company. There would be no transfer of ownership from DFCSG to the new party.

You probably know more than me but what is stopping a dilution of the DFCSG holdings as an alternative way round transfer?

[Spyman]

The DFCSG own approximately 79% of the football club. It would require a vote on changing the ownership model of the DFCSG in order for them to sell any of that share to a private investor. That won't pass if a relatively small number of members decided they didn't want that to happen.

And what I am saying I don't think you need to buy the DFCSG share to take 51% ownership. Couldn't more ordinary shares be issued and bought?

For £300,000 you could buy 300,000 shares in Darlington 1883 Limited and you would have a controlling share of the company. There would be no transfer of ownership from DFCSG to the new party.

You probably know more than me but what is stopping a dilution of the DFCSG holdings as an alternative way round transfer?

But as majority shareholders, DFCSG (its members) would need to approve the issuing of more ordinary shares.

[lo36789]

But as majority shareholders, DFCSG (its members) would need to approve the issuing of more ordinary shares.

I agree they would - but if the challenge is that the DFCSG cannot transfer their shares to a private investor (which Mr Tibbs seems to be suggesting is the problem as those shares are the asset of the 'community').

The end result is the same control is handed over but strictly speaking the DFCSG wouldn't have sold any of their assets. I assume it would require a considerable smaller shareholding to agree to that but I may be wrong?

[Mr_Tibbs]

lo, the short answer is no.

[spen666]

This^

Raj Singh returning is a red line that cannot be crossed.

I can't believe people would want him back, nor that he would want to put money into the football club after losing money last time.

However, as someone has said previously... Imagine a scenario when an acceptable ( to most fans) investor comes along and puts £millions into the club in return for say 51% (or more of club shares). All is fine and accepted.

2 years later new investor has had enough and wants to sell...

There is nothing anyone could do to stop him selling it to Singh, Houghton, Reynolds, or anyone for that matter.

Once you give up control of club it is lost forever

[44 years]

This going to be a difficult decision, just for this year and mount the challenge for promotion we as fans need to raise in the region of £280k (including budget). Currently taking off the £10k from the investor we have raised just over £22k towards the ground work so substantial amount still to raise if we are to mount a challenge for promotion next season. From memory the last community share of £100k was raised by 300+ supporters and it may be that this is approx the max number of people that are willing or able to put in money financially. Its a big ask, and while I did buy two 5 year tickets (in case a friend wanted to come), bought shares, invested in the first community share scheme, have Darlo lottery tickets and by 50/50 tickets I have put into this second community share and some money into the budget fund I am not going to be able to keep dipping into my savings and the other 300+ may be in the same position?

We need to remember that if we raise the money for this year the club will have debts of £293k to repay to fans in the future (plus interest).

Given that we have made a loss each season (pulled out of trouble several times by generous short term loans from individuals and the transfer clause cash). It may be as a fan owned and run club our sustainable level is possibly Evostick Division 1? which will end up a bit of downward spiral as I expect crowds will drop considerably once there for a few seasons cutting the budget again. Without our own ground we are always going to be limited in financial opportunities.

As for Raj -I don't know the person at all, when he first came to the club some friends from Middlesbrough informed me that he was a real football fan. My understanding from my own memory (which is bad to be honest) and talking to people at the arena at the time was:-
Him and Houghton were not close friends
He put substantial investment into the club (i.e with Houghton)
Houghton left
Some of players started to take the Mick about money.
Raj asked for the support of the fans - which I don't think we provided to be honest
Some fans gave him a hard time
He spat his dummy out?
Not sure if he was asked about the Golden Ticket till too late?

In the end it has worked in a way, we have had great success, visited lots of new grounds but more important the fans became closer and supportive (both at feethams and the arena besides football matches supporters rarely went to the bars during the week etc. or raised money as we did not need to because we thought the owners had endless cash).

I personally have no problems with Raj coming back as long as we have safe guards like:-
Not a lone investor
The 51% by new shares bought
We do not take out loans against the club without agreement
Supporters group member on the board
The Golden Ticket in supporters club name (if this possible)
We continue to raise money in support of the club but the supporters group keep substantial reserves for a possible rainy day.
Club cant be subsequently sold on without 70% of the shareholders agreement
Etc. Etc.

[tezza]

This^

Raj Singh returning is a red line that cannot be crossed.

I can't believe people would want him back, nor that he would want to put money into the football club after losing money last time.

However, as someone has said previously... Imagine a scenario when an acceptable ( to most fans) investor comes along and puts £millions into the club in return for say 51% (or more of club shares). All is fine and accepted.

2 years later new investor has had enough and wants to sell...

There is nothing anyone could do to stop him selling it to Singh, Houghton, Reynolds, or anyone for that matter.

Once you give up control of club it is lost forever

You mean like Spennymoor

[Mr_Tibbs]

Not sure if he was asked about the Golden Ticket till too late?

No, lied live on Radio Tees saying that he had no use for it and was forwarding it on the next day, but kept it instead and left most Darlo fans sick to the stomach on the day the club nearly died, and again when we got kicked down to the Northern League because he kept hold of it.

[Vodka_Vic]

Remember this. He also humiliated a Darlo fan live on air.
However, what sort of system/organisation doesn't have a contingency plan for if an individual decides to 'kidnap' an essential document? The FA again.

[biccynana]

However, what sort of system/organisation doesn't have a contingency plan for if an individual decides to 'kidnap' an essential document? The FA again.

I have never understood how the football share can be issued and held in an individual’s name. Surely it should be vested in a role in each club: Chairman, Secretary, whatever, rather than a named individual. So when the Chairman leaves it automatically passes to his/her successor.

[DarloDave40]

If it is Raj he is either totally thick skinned and stupid or he feels it's unfinished business. If it's unfinished business let's give him the time to tell us why he wants to get involved again.
Put it this way there's no property involved perhaps he wants to just put things right!!