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 Post subject: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:18 pm 
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https://thenationalleague.org.uk/news/d ... s_id=20844


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:08 am 
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No doubt unless the rules are changed, sides below 7th will get into the play-offs, as sides that are in 2nd to 7th positions won't have the necessary seats or capacity. Backward step in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:59 am 
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Yes Pete, there is the potential for teams to be take part down to mid-table if teams dont meet the seating criteria...

In that case I reckon it should be if the teams finishing 6 and 7 dont meet the criteria it should, other teams below 7 should not be allowed in and play it the traditional way or give teams byes

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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:13 am 
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I can see both sides of the argument for extending the playoffs, but there are 2 things which concern me. Firstly, in that link it states:

"Match 1: 4th v 7th
Match 2: 5th v 6th
Match 3: 2nd v Winner of Match 1
Match 4: 3rd v Winner of Match 2"

Surely this is unfair - could well be 2nd v 4th and 3rd v 6th in the SFs. I hope it's a mistake and that it would be 2nd v lowest ranked team, 3rd v the other one.

Also, there are rumours of the final being held at MK Dons. For a whole variety of reasons I hope this is not true.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:03 am 
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al_quaker wrote:
I can see both sides of the argument for extending the playoffs, but there are 2 things which concern me. Firstly, in that link it states:

"Match 1: 4th v 7th
Match 2: 5th v 6th
Match 3: 2nd v Winner of Match 1
Match 4: 3rd v Winner of Match 2"

Surely this is unfair - could well be 2nd v 4th and 3rd v 6th in the SFs. I hope it's a mistake and that it would be 2nd v lowest ranked team, 3rd v the other one.

Also, there are rumours of the final being held at MK Dons. For a whole variety of reasons I hope this is not true.

I think the same rumour circulated last season but didn't happen


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:07 am 
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After the fiasco of last seasons playoffs North and South didn't they say that the rule would be looked at regarding having 500 seats just to play in the playoffs?

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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:18 am 
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poppyfield wrote:
After the fiasco of last seasons playoffs North and South didn't they say that the rule would be looked at regarding having 500 seats just to play in the playoffs?


The new playoff rules makes the seats rule even more daft tbh. A team could finish 7th. Have no opportunity to play any home playoffs in stage 1, semi-finals and finals. But could still be barred from taking part on the grounds that they do not have 500 covered seats.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:36 am 
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JE93 wrote:
poppyfield wrote:
After the fiasco of last seasons playoffs North and South didn't they say that the rule would be looked at regarding having 500 seats just to play in the playoffs?


The new playoff rules makes the seats rule even more daft tbh. A team could finish 7th. Have no opportunity to play any home playoffs in stage 1, semi-finals and finals. But could still be barred from taking part on the grounds that they do not have 500 covered seats.



The 500 seats rule has nothing to do with playing home play off games.

The 500 seat rule is in place to ensure grounds are up to standard by the time the side get to National Division. ( Not saying it is a sensible rule, but that is the logic behind it)

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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:50 am 
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spen666 wrote:
JE93 wrote:
poppyfield wrote:
After the fiasco of last seasons playoffs North and South didn't they say that the rule would be looked at regarding having 500 seats just to play in the playoffs?


The new playoff rules makes the seats rule even more daft tbh. A team could finish 7th. Have no opportunity to play any home playoffs in stage 1, semi-finals and finals. But could still be barred from taking part on the grounds that they do not have 500 covered seats.



The 500 seats rule has nothing to do with playing home play off games.

The 500 seat rule is in place to ensure grounds are up to standard by the time the side get to National Division. ( Not saying it is a sensible rule, but that is the logic behind it)


Er, you are wrong you cant play in the playoffs unless you have 500 covered seats.

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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:17 am 
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poppyfield wrote:
spen666 wrote:
JE93 wrote:
poppyfield wrote:
After the fiasco of last seasons playoffs North and South didn't they say that the rule would be looked at regarding having 500 seats just to play in the playoffs?


The new playoff rules makes the seats rule even more daft tbh. A team could finish 7th. Have no opportunity to play any home playoffs in stage 1, semi-finals and finals. But could still be barred from taking part on the grounds that they do not have 500 covered seats.



The 500 seats rule has nothing to do with playing home play off games.

The 500 seat rule is in place to ensure grounds are up to standard by the time the side get to National Division. ( Not saying it is a sensible rule, but that is the logic behind it)


Er, you are wrong you cant play in the playoffs unless you have 500 covered seats.


He's not saying you can play in the play-offs at home without the 500 covered seats, he's saying the rule is in place to stop sides getting promoted into the league above without the requisite number of seats for the following season.

So the idea that it's unfair to deny a team a place in the play-offs even if they have no play-off games at home is irrelevant.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:20 am 
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poppyfield wrote:
spen666 wrote:
JE93 wrote:
poppyfield wrote:
After the fiasco of last seasons playoffs North and South didn't they say that the rule would be looked at regarding having 500 seats just to play in the playoffs?


The new playoff rules makes the seats rule even more daft tbh. A team could finish 7th. Have no opportunity to play any home playoffs in stage 1, semi-finals and finals. But could still be barred from taking part on the grounds that they do not have 500 covered seats.



The 500 seats rule has nothing to do with playing home play off games.

The 500 seat rule is in place to ensure grounds are up to standard by the time the side get to National Division. ( Not saying it is a sensible rule, but that is the logic behind it)


Er, you are wrong you cant play in the playoffs unless you have 500 covered seats.


I think cause and effect here and what is the actual motivation behind the rule.

Spen is wrong in saying it has nothing to do with playing home play off games because actually that is ultimately the outcome.

Ultimately though the reason the rule exists is that grounds must be guaranteed to be up to spec on day 1 of the National League season (well 500 covered seats) and they don't want to end up in the position of having to complete the playoffs and then reprieve a relegated team.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:48 am 
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lo36789 wrote:
poppyfield wrote:
spen666 wrote:
JE93 wrote:
poppyfield wrote:
After the fiasco of last seasons playoffs North and South didn't they say that the rule would be looked at regarding having 500 seats just to play in the playoffs?


The new playoff rules makes the seats rule even more daft tbh. A team could finish 7th. Have no opportunity to play any home playoffs in stage 1, semi-finals and finals. But could still be barred from taking part on the grounds that they do not have 500 covered seats.



The 500 seats rule has nothing to do with playing home play off games.

The 500 seat rule is in place to ensure grounds are up to standard by the time the side get to National Division. ( Not saying it is a sensible rule, but that is the logic behind it)


Er, you are wrong you cant play in the playoffs unless you have 500 covered seats.


I think cause and effect here and what is the actual motivation behind the rule.

Spen is wrong in saying it has nothing to do with playing home play off games because actually that is ultimately the outcome.

Ultimately though the reason the rule exists is that grounds must be guaranteed to be up to spec on day 1 of the National League season (well 500 covered seats) and they don't want to end up in the position of having to complete the playoffs and then reprieve a relegated team.


I am not wrong

The rule applies to the team winning the division who by definition would not be in the play offs. It also applies to side in last play off place who cannot possibly play a home game.

You are confusing the effect of the ruling ( ie stopping you getting promotion or into the play offs) with the purpose of the rule which is to ensure the grounds are up to the standard of the National division.

If it is as you suggest, then the rule would not apply to the winners of the division or the side in the last play off place, but it does apply to them both

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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:15 pm 
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spen666 wrote:
You are confusing the effect of the ruling ( ie stopping you getting promotion or into the play offs) with the purpose of the rule which is to ensure the grounds are up to the standard of the National division.


I certainly am not. I am bemused that as a solicitor you have come to that conclusion from the following

"Spen is wrong in saying it has nothing to do with playing home play off games because actually that is ultimately the outcome.

Ultimately though the reason the rule exists is that grounds must be guaranteed to be up to spec on day 1 of the National League season (well 500 covered seats) and they don't want to end up in the position of having to complete the playoffs and then reprieve a relegated team."

That actually clearly states in the first paragraph that not being able to play is the outcome. The purposes is then listed in the second paragraph.

But you have confirmed. Would you agree that the two are connected?

spen666 wrote:
The 500 seats rule has nothing to do with playing home play off games.


Not having the 500 seats would prevent you from playing home play off games. Therefore it has something 'to do' with it. Therefore your statement above is most definitely wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:44 pm 
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lo36789 wrote:
....
Not having the 500 seats would prevent you from playing home play off games. Therefore it has something 'to do' with it. Therefore your statement above is most definitely wrong.



So why would not having 500 seats prevent the champions being promoted?

If Darlington had won the division last season, they would still not have been allowed to take promotion despite not being in the play offs

Quote:
Promotion and promotion play-offs: To qualify for promotion to the Football Conference Premier Division by winning the respective NORTH/SOUTH Championship and for the club to participate in the promotion play off matches, the ground must achieve a Category “B” Grading together with 500 seats under cover by 31st March in each season. These seats may be in two stands, with no stand having less than 100 seats.


to quote the FA Regulations, it is clear they apply to teams going up without playing in play offs ( ie winning division), therefore the requirement is not to have them for the purpose of the play off games

why would not having 500 seats prevent the team in the last play off place getting into the play offs when its impossible for them to have a home play off game?

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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:48 pm 
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Anyway, fixtures are out soon and we kick off on 5th August. That means we are just approaching the half way mark through the close season. Can't wait for kick off; I get so bored from May to July with no games to go to.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:58 pm 
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You could always watch England and be more bored


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:08 pm 
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spen666 wrote:
So why would not having 500 seats prevent the champions being promoted?


What are you on about - where did I make any reference to going up as champions.

All I said is that the 500 rule has a bearing on being able to play a home play off game. It is similarly impactful upon ability to play an away game or be granted automatic promotion.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:31 am 
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lo36789 wrote:
spen666 wrote:
So why would not having 500 seats prevent the champions being promoted?


What are you on about - where did I make any reference to going up as champions.

All I said is that the 500 rule has a bearing on being able to play a home play off game. It is similarly impactful upon ability to play an away game or be granted automatic promotion.



You didn't that is the point. The FA do make reference to the Champions not being allowed to be promoted if they do not have 500 seats either as at 31 March.

Thus the requirement is not because of play off games. The champions do not take part in the play offs do they?

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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:53 am 
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:wtf:


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:15 pm 
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Are spen and lo married ?


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:35 pm 
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The simple fact is whether you're champions or you're in the play-offs you can't go up unless you have 500 covered seats as they are the rules for the league above? So really as far as I can see this argument is pointless


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:37 pm 
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wembleychamps wrote:
The simple fact is whether you're champions or you're in the play-offs you can't go up unless you have 500 covered seats as they are the rules for the league above? So really as far as I can see this argument is pointless


No matter whether you are at home in the play offs or not


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:13 pm 
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wembleychamps wrote:
wembleychamps wrote:
The simple fact is whether you're champions or you're in the play-offs you can't go up unless you have 500 covered seats as they are the rules for the league above? So really as far as I can see this argument is pointless


No matter whether you are at home in the play offs or not


But the league above also requires 8 turnstiles we only have 6. I also think we would need to increase capacity and toilet facilities. But this was not a reason for not being allowed to play in the playoffs. So it can't be about having a ground that is 'ready' for the league above. Its an anomaly of a rule. I just don't really get its strategic intent if I'm honest.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:55 pm 
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JE93 wrote:
So it can't be about having a ground that is 'ready' for the league above. Its an anomaly of a rule. I just don't really get its strategic intent if I'm honest.


It is. Basically they are saying they are happy that you can play in the division for the first however many months while you get other facilities up to scratch. The minimum on day 1 is that you have 500 seats under cover.

It is an anomaly but the reasoning behind it is pretty clear.

The reason you can't be in the playoffs is to avoid undermining the competition. They don't want a playoff winner to be ineligible for promotion and lead to a repreive. No idea what would happen if champions weren't eligible in terms of promotion places.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:22 pm 
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Is the criteria thats in force at the moment only ask for the 500 seats?

Could we go up with the minimum number of seats and be given a period to further develop (31 March in the season following promotion) the ground i.e. Toilets, Turnstiles and Segregation etc

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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:08 pm 
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murtonquaker wrote:
Is the criteria thats in force at the moment only ask for the 500 seats?

Could we go up with the minimum number of seats and be given a period to further develop (31 March in the season following promotion) the ground i.e. Toilets, Turnstiles and Segregation etc

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Yes. We would be eligible for more grants as well as a National League club.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:40 pm 
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http://darlingtonfootballclub.co.uk/vanarama-playoff-final/

So the final will be on 13th May and hosted at the home ground of the highest placed club.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:14 pm 
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banktopp wrote:
Are spen and lo married ?



Yes they are - and Spen never loads up the dishwasher properly - it's a constant cause of irritation between them.

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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:01 am 
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theoriginalfatcat wrote:
banktopp wrote:
Are spen and lo married ?



Yes they are - and Spen never loads up the dishwasher properly - it's a constant cause of irritation between them.


We have a dishwasher? :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Changes to play-offs
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:05 pm 
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spen666 wrote:
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
banktopp wrote:
Are spen and lo married ?



Yes they are - and Spen never loads up the dishwasher properly - it's a constant cause of irritation between them.


We have a dishwasher? :shock:


That's a revelation, they have electricity in Spennymoor!!!!! :D


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