Short-termism

[Darlogramps]

I'm not getting into the discussion on which players are good enough etc. A lot of it is anger and frustration at today's abysmal showing. Some of the criticism has been fair.
Some of it has not (some are suggesting Turnbull isn't good enough for this level and that MG should be sacked - which is kneejerking of the highest order).

BUT

I think there is a much deeper problem that has been highlighted by responses to today's defeat. We're a club built on short-term thinking.

After the game today, MG (and some fans) have suggested the response to today's humiliation is to ship players out en masse and bring in new ones. This to me is exactly the kind of thinking that has got us into this mess.

In the summer, when to everyone the priority was to build the stand, what did we do? We gave MG an extra £40K to 'Boost the Budget' - essentially a bribe to keep him on board. Boiled down, what was MG's flirtation with Raj Singh all about? Getting more money involved to get into the National League Premier within 18 months. Again, short-termism - the £40k Raj offered was for the playing budget.

Now I'd never accept anything from Raj on a point of principle. But if the Boost the Budget was for the ground - we'd be nearly there by now. And we could at least have the possibility of a play-off tilt, as we'd be able to get the ground developed.

Instead, our season looks over by mid-September. We can't even get excited by a play-off push because we can't qualify for them without an up-to-standard ground. And we can't fund an up-to-standard ground because we've no money from a cup run. We're now in a vicious circle of needing to be successful in the league to generate positivity/interest, but can't do anything with any success because we're not eligible for the play-offs.

Taking a step back and looking at the big picture, what is our long term plan? What type of club are we going to be in 5/10 years' time? Where do we want to be on and off-the-field and how are we going to get there?

We've had 5 years of short-termism. Of big playing budgets to achieve our immediate goals (getting out of the Northern League, getting out of the NPL, having a tilt at the title every year). In some ways, it was necessary to think like this. Starting out afresh comes with immediate challenges that need to be met. But now we're established it's time to think differently.

Perhaps it's a hangover from our administration days, when we had to think short-term, think of how to survive day-to-day, week-to-week.

Now, the likes of David Johnston and John Tempest need to be brave. They need to come up with a plan for the next few years and stick to it. If that means upsetting MG by cutting the playing budget to be sustainable, then for me, so be it.

How do we get this ground up-to-standard, not just for the next division, but also the Football League? How do we fund a team that can be competitive if we're promoted? How do we build our relationships with businesses and community, to get them to help support us? These questions need to be answered before we even think about getting into National League, and certainly the Football League.

This off-the-field development for me is essential. I'm willing to accept several years in this division, even if that means cut budgets and no promotion challenges. Heck, I'd even accept a relegation. If we were planning for the long-term, building our off-the-field relationships and developing the foundations of the club for the next few years, maybe decades.

I accept this is so much easier to be said than done. And there's buy-in to be had from fans as well. It shouldn't just fall to David Johnston, John Tempest, Wayne Raper etc, who do an admirable job in difficult circumstances.

Earlier in the week, TDS suggested having a fans' forum. Initially I scoffed, but on the basis of today, I think it's now important. The wider fanbase certainly needs to discuss where we go from here in the long term.

The position we find ourselves in now must be a line in the sand. We need to end the short-term thinking around this club. At the moment, we appear to be living season-to-season. It's big playing budgets for promotion tilts year-in, year-out. For me, this is no longer a viable way to run the club. Obviously attendances fluctuate, there are unexpected issues arise etc, which impact on the finances available.

But the wider point still stands. Given our perilously fragile finances, is it sensible to be talking about overhauling the squad six weeks into the new season? Is that a sensible way to run a football club which has massive off-the-field development to take place?

This is the conversation we now need to have as a football club.

[roadrunner]

Johnson not going to upset Gray his drinking pal why do you think he came to the club.

[Vodka_Vic]

For me player development is absolutely paramount and I haven't seen enough of this. Getting players like Vaulks in the squad is a step in the right direction, but successful clubs who live within their means have the right blend of development from within and experienced players. Maybe we're too early into this. The club have championed a couple of 'signings' recently, Lee Hume and Dale Milburn, and maybe within a year or so they may be ready. But I'm also a bit confused that MG champions these signings for the future, then gives out mixed messages like he did today, and also constantly going on in interviews about needing investment. This talk needs to stop.
I was very excited when we got promoted to this league, as we were finally going to meet some biggish clubs again, especially being back in Darlington. Our crowds have dwindled a bit this year, mainly the gamble to put gate prices up to give MG his budget, which looks now to have been a poor decision, but I do feel that we need to budget more responsibly next year for lower crowds, and just enjoy the journey for a couple of years while we build the club from within.

[Darlogramps]

For me player development is absolutely paramount and I haven't seen enough of this. Getting players like Vaulks in the squad is a step in the right direction, but successful clubs who live within their means have the right blend of development from within and experienced players. Maybe we're too early into this. The club have championed a couple of 'signings' recently, Lee Hume and Dale Milburn, and maybe within a year or so they may be ready. But I'm also a bit confused that MG champions these signings for the future, then gives out mixed messages like he did today, and also constantly going on in interviews about needing investment. This talk needs to stop.
I was very excited when we got promoted to this league, as we were finally going to meet some biggish clubs again, especially being back in Darlington. Our crowds have dwindled a bit this year, mainly the gamble to put gate prices up to give MG his budget, which looks now to have been a poor decision, but I do feel that we need to budget more responsibly next year for lower crowds, and just enjoy the journey for a couple of years while we build the club from within.

Completely agree with you about young players. In the last 5 years, have we ever brought through a youth team player and seen him develop into a first teamer?

I don't think we've had one single youth team player hold down a regular first team spot. Saunders is the nearest, but for all his unquestionable, admirable endeavour and desire today, he was easily muscled off the ball and didn't really produce much to trouble Shields. Not his fault and there are more senior players who should be taking the blame for today's abomination.

I like him, but he's not ready to be a first teamer yet.

[m62exile]

I’m not sure I’d ever be expecting us to bring any, or at least many players through our youth or reserve setups. Youngsters who’ve been released from other academies are a better bet.

Anyone involved in Youth football will tell you that anyone good enough is hoovered up before they’re even ten years old, and the Wearside league is, well, it’s the level below the RA and you wouldn’t expect that to be a breeding ground for us.

I don’t think we’re in a position to do much more about it but some realism is required. We’d be as well served making sure our scouting network at Evo Stik and NL1 is up to scratch.

[loan_star]

Earlier in the week, TDS suggested having a fans' forum. Initially I scoffed, but on the basis of today, I think it's now important. The wider fanbase certainly needs to discuss where we go from here in the long term.

Do forums ever achieve anything? I'm all for a select group of fans to meet up to have discussions about stuff like this but open forums always end up being a waste of time. People either repeat something that was said 5 minutes earlier or go off on a tangent about pies or the air freshener used in the toilets. You get the ones who just love to slag off the hard work of those at the top and those for who Gray can do no wrong and everyone gets at each others throats. Plus half the time you can't hear whats said because the microphones cut out or they don't know how to use them!

[Darlogramps]

Earlier in the week, TDS suggested having a fans' forum. Initially I scoffed, but on the basis of today, I think it's now important. The wider fanbase certainly needs to discuss where we go from here in the long term.

Do forums ever achieve anything? I'm all for a select group of fans to meet up to have discussions about stuff like this but open forums always end up being a waste of time. People either repeat something that was said 5 minutes earlier or go off on a tangent about pies or the air freshener used in the toilets. You get the ones who just love to slag off the hard work those at the top and those for who Gray can do no wrong and everyone gets at each others throats. Plus half the time you can't hear whats said because the microphones cut out or they don't know how to use them!

Well there's that. But the wider point is we need to decide where we're heading as a football club.

There's definite split between those who want short term success (which includes Martin Gray) and those who want a long term strategy.

[princes town]

Earlier in the week, TDS suggested having a fans' forum. Initially I scoffed, but on the basis of today, I think it's now important. The wider fanbase certainly needs to discuss where we go from here in the long term.

Do forums ever achieve anything? I'm all for a select group of fans to meet up to have discussions about stuff like this but open forums always end up being a waste of time. People either repeat something that was said 5 minutes earlier or go off on a tangent about pies or the air freshener used in the toilets. You get the ones who just love to slag off the hard work those at the top and those for who Gray can do no wrong and everyone gets at each others throats. Plus half the time you can't hear whats said because the microphones cut out or they don't know how to use them!

Well there's that. But the wider point is we need to decide where we're heading as a football club.

There's definite split between those who want short term success (which includes Martin Gray) and those who want a long term strategy.

I hadn't read your post but I've pretty much made a similar point in a separate thread. The club lacks a clear strategy. Your post is essential reading. The lack of youth development something also worth pointing out. The constant turnover at the top a massive problem in developing a clear strategy.

[princes town]

But the wider point still stands. Given our perilously fragile finances, is it sensible to be talking about overhauling the squad six weeks into the new season? Is that a sensible way to run a football club which has massive off-the-field development to take place?

This is the conversation we now need to have as a football club.

Absolutely right.

[liddle_4_ever]

I'm not getting into the discussion on which players are good enough etc. A lot of is anger and frustration at today's abysmal showing. Some of the criticism has been fair.
Some of it has not (some are suggesting Turnbull isn't good enough for this level and that MG should be sacked - which is kneejerking of the highest order).

BUT

I think there is a much deeper problem that has been highlighted by responses to today's defeat. We're a club built on short-term thinking.

After the game today, MG (and some fans) have suggested the response to today's humiliation is to ship players out en masse and bring in new ones. This to me is exactly the kind of thinking that has got us into this mess.

In the summer, when to everyone the priority was to build the stand, what did we do? We gave MG an extra £40K to 'Boost the Budget' - essentially a bribe to keep him on board. Boiled down, what was MG's flirtation with Raj Singh all about? Getting more money involved to get into the National League Premier within 18 months. Again, short-termism - the £40k Raj offered was for the playing budget.

Now I'd never accept anything from Raj on a point of principle. But if the Boost the Budget was for the ground - we'd be nearly there by now. And we could at least have the possibility of a play-off tilt, as we'd be able to get the ground developed.

Instead, our season looks over by mid-September. We can't even get excited by a play-off push because we can't qualify for them without an up-to-standard ground. And we can't fund an up-to-standard ground because we've no money from a cup run. We're now in a vicious circle of needing to be successful in the league to generate positivity/interest, but can't do anything with any success because we're not eligible for the play-offs.

Taking a step back and looking at the big picture, what is our long term plan? What type of club are we going to be in 5/10 years' time? Where do we want to be on and off-the-field and how are we going to get there?

We've had 5 years of short-termism. Of big playing budgets to achieve our immediate goals (getting out of the Northern League, getting out of the NPL, having a tilt at the title every year). In some ways, it was necessary to think like this. Starting out afresh comes with immediate challenges that need to be met. But now we're established it's time to think differently.

Perhaps it's a hangover from our administration days, when we had to think short-term, think of how to survive day-to-day, week-to-week.

Now, the likes of David Johnston and John Tempest need to be brave. They need to come up with a plan for the next few years and stick to it. If that means upsetting MG by cutting the playing budget to be sustainable, then for me, so be it.

How do we get this ground up-to-standard, not just for the next division, but also the Football League? How do we fund a team that can be competitive if we're promoted? How do we build our relationships with businesses and community, to get them to help support us? These questions need to be answered before we even think about getting into National League, and certainly the Football League.

This off-the-field development for me is essential. I'm willing to accept several years in this division, even if that means cut budgets and no promotion challenges. Heck, I'd even accept a relegation. If we were planning for the long-term, building our off-the-field relationships and developing the foundations of the club for the next few years, maybe decades.

I accept this is so much easier to be said than done. And there's buy-in to be had from fans as well. It shouldn't just fall to David Johnston, John Tempest, Wayne Raper etc, who do an admirable job in difficult circumstances.

Earlier in the week, TDS suggested having a fans' forum. Initially I scoffed, but on the basis of today, I think it's now important. The wider fanbase certainly needs to discuss where we go from here in the long term.

The position we find ourselves in now must be a line in the sand. We need to end the short-term thinking around this club. At the moment, we appear to be living season-to-season. It's big playing budgets for promotion tilts year-in, year-out. For me, this is no longer a viable way to run the club. Obviously attendances fluctuate, there are unexpected issues arise etc, which impact on the finances available.

But the wider point still stands. Given our perilously fragile finances, is it sensible to be talking about overhauling the squad six weeks into the new season? Is that a sensible way to run a football club which has massive off-the-field development to take place?

This is the conversation we now need to have as a football club.

I totally agree.

MG and some board members are fixated on getting an external investor involved but some of the heads of the supporters group, and I'm fairly sure a sufficient percentage of our ownership, are dead set against external investment. If this is the case, people are wasting their time and planning for something that just won't happen.


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[liddle_4_ever]

Earlier in the week, TDS suggested having a fans' forum. Initially I scoffed, but on the basis of today, I think it's now important. The wider fanbase certainly needs to discuss where we go from here in the long term.

Do forums ever achieve anything? I'm all for a select group of fans to meet up to have discussions about stuff like this but open forums always end up being a waste of time. People either repeat something that was said 5 minutes earlier or go off on a tangent about pies or the air freshener used in the toilets. You get the ones who just love to slag off the hard work of those at the top and those for who Gray can do no wrong and everyone gets at each others throats. Plus half the time you can't hear whats said because the microphones cut out or they don't know how to use them!

That's why I think online Q&As work better and allow the largest range of our fans to get involved.


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[liddle_4_ever]

I’m not sure I’d ever be expecting us to bring any, or at least many players through our youth or reserve setups. Youngsters who’ve been released from other academies are a better bet.

Anyone involved in Youth football will tell you that anyone good enough is hoovered up before they’re even ten years old, and the Wearside league is, well, it’s the level below the RA and you wouldn’t expect that to be a breeding ground for us.

I don’t think we’re in a position to do much more about it but some realism is required. We’d be as well served making sure our scouting network at Evo Stik and NL1 is up to scratch.

That's why we should focus on feeding on the scraps from the big 3s academies. This is the most cost effective solution. They've done the searching and the hard work to develop them so far. Not good enough for the championship doesn't mean they can't do a job for us.


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[lo36789]

Appreciate there are emotions running high. I don't disagree about a longer term strategy and in line with what gramps says I am happy for us to say have a 5 year plan for one more promotion. That would be fine for me if the focus for next 2/3 years is infrastructure.

Btw we are only 3 points off a playoff position "season over" is a bit of an extreme reaction. I still think we will be challenging around the playoff positions by the end of the season.

[liddle_4_ever]

We won't have enough seats so where we finish in the league this season is irrelevant.

As I said on another post, aims this year should have been:
1) improve ground - FAILED
2) make a profit - unlikely
3) have a cup run - FAILED
4) make the playoffs - irrelevant as the 1) hasn't been met


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[Darlogramps]

Appreciate there are emotions running high. I don't disagree about a longer term strategy and in line with what gramps says I am happy for us to say have a 5 year plan for one more promotion. That would be fine for me if the focus for next 2/3 years is infrastructure.

Btw we are only 3 points off a playoff position "season over" is a bit of an extreme reaction. I still think we will be challenging around the playoff positions by the end of the season.

Whether we're challenging for the play-offs is irrelevant unless we're actually eligible to compete in them (which we're not as it stands and I'm struggling to see where we raise the £60k still needed).

[lo36789]

My point is we can still be competitive and this season. It's not like there is nothing at all to play for. I agree seats is a priority as until we do that our performance on the pitch almost becomes irrelevant - I don't think today has suddenly changed that.

We can still go on a trophy run...however unlikely.

As I say if we almost came forward and said the next couple of years is about consolidation. We aren't going to be banging on the playoff door but we will be cutting the budget accordingly and reinvesting that money in our ground.

Our problem at the moment is that expectation is a playoff finish. If that expectation was reduced and expectation became top half then suddenly the atmosphere changes when certain results happen. Currently whenever we lose it is doom and gloom there maybe more pragmatism if expectations and managed differently.

[wizardofos]

The piece by Darlogramps at the top of this thread pretty well sums up our current position. He didn't touch on one other point which is bothering me, though.
That is the agreement with the Rugby Club.
I do think that more should be known about this before people are asked to throw money into what may be a black hole. The new CEO has already hinted that the agreement is not to his liking.

For example:
How long is the current agreement?
What is the annual cost and by what mechanism can it be varied?
What arrangements are in place for a continuation of the agreement the end of it's term?
Under what circumstances could the Landlord terminate the agreement early?
Who is responsible for funding further infrastructure improvements outside the stadium, such as the much needed access from the car park onto Grange Road?
Who owns the assets which DFC have paid for?
Do the fixtures and fittings paid for by DFC become the Landlords property at the end of the agreement?
When are DFC allowed access to the site and it's facilities?

And so on. I do think it's unfair to ask people to invest without a better knowledge of what's been agreed on their behalf.

[dfc4me]

We need to hear from our CEO as to what he has achieved so far and what his ideas for the future are. Program notes containing vague hints aren't enough, we need facts and the chance to question him. Either a fans forum or a forum for DFCSG members as long as it's something that can't be manipulated in the way an online Q and A can.

[loan_star]

When are DFC allowed access to the site and it's facilities?

Match days only and other events such as forums. Even then I hear stories of rugby club staff asking people,including club staff, to leave because the allotted time is up. Rather like booking the 5 a side court at the Dolphin Centre.
However it's where we are and I guess we just have to like it or lump it for now.

[Vodka_Vic]

We need to hear from our CEO as to what he has achieved so far and what his ideas for the future are. Program notes containing vague hints aren't enough, we need facts and the chance to question him. Either a fans forum or a forum for DFCSG members as long as it's something that can't be manipulated in the way an online Q and A can.

Agreed. Roadrunner made one of his cryptic points earlier about our CEO being MG's drinking buddy. In his initial interview he did say that he'd had a connection with MG to come to the club, something to do with being a director at the MG academy, although someone would need to research this better than me. He also talked about the need for outside investment soon if we are to progress. Therefore if he is a link to MG, what is his brief? He states about wanting to get back in the FL with our own ground, so again, outside investment is being championed by him. So has he been brought in to stabilise ourselves long term or to gain us short term success?

[Vodka_Vic]

I’m not sure I’d ever be expecting us to bring any, or at least many players through our youth or reserve setups. Youngsters who’ve been released from other academies are a better bet.

Anyone involved in Youth football will tell you that anyone good enough is hoovered up before they’re even ten years old, and the Wearside league is, well, it’s the level below the RA and you wouldn’t expect that to be a breeding ground for us.

I don’t think we’re in a position to do much more about it but some realism is required. We’d be as well served making sure our scouting network at Evo Stik and NL1 is up to scratch.

That's why we should focus on feeding on the scraps from the big 3s academies. This is the most cost effective solution. They've done the searching and the hard work to develop them so far. Not good enough for the championship doesn't mean they can't do a job for us.


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Isn't this where we got Joe Wheatley from? And Cartman dropped out of Leeds Utd's academy a few years back.

[Darlo_CR]

I’m not sure I’d ever be expecting us to bring any, or at least many players through our youth or reserve setups. Youngsters who’ve been released from other academies are a better bet.

Anyone involved in Youth football will tell you that anyone good enough is hoovered up before they’re even ten years old, and the Wearside league is, well, it’s the level below the RA and you wouldn’t expect that to be a breeding ground for us.

I don’t think we’re in a position to do much more about it but some realism is required. We’d be as well served making sure our scouting network at Evo Stik and NL1 is up to scratch.

That's why we should focus on feeding on the scraps from the big 3s academies. This is the most cost effective solution. They've done the searching and the hard work to develop them so far. Not good enough for the championship doesn't mean they can't do a job for us.


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Isn't this where we got Joe Wheatley from? And Cartman dropped out of Leeds Utd's academy a few years back.

It is, we have to give these players time to adjust to this standard and style of football just as much as our own youth team players. We've had the likes of Bruno Pilatos, Ryan Noble, Curtis Edwards and Nathan Thomas, all of which who were highly rated at their previous academies at one point. I understand there are other factors that have to be considered like work rate and desire but players like Curtis Edwards, now playing in the europa league and Nathan Thomas, recently signed for Sheffield United for 315K could have been developed for large fees, which could support the club massively.

[al_quaker]

I think darlogramps is pretty spot on with the first post. We now need to have a medium term plan to get the club into a position where we could realistically survive at the next level. We're nowhere near ready off the pitch (and also seemingly on the pitch too). We're trying to do too many things at once -- the fans this summer have been asked to build a new stand and fund a bigger budget. That's why yesterday hurt so much - it was an opportunity to take a bit of pressure off of the fanbase having to dig into their pockets time and time again - and then we put in one of the most inept performances of the last 5 years.

I'll admit this season a bit of disillusionment has set in. The last 5 years have been all about getting back to Darlo + getting our name back - then the crowds should come back, we'll have a home within a proper sporting hub and then we will be able to take a big step forwards as a club. Look at the crowds others have had after returning to exile! We'll get 2k min every week etc etc. The reality has been completely different. Crowds are plummeting, we've a manger who effectively held us to ransom in the summer and then subsequently has seemingly taken us backwards, we've got a ground where we're not even allowed signage which says 'Football Club' on it, businesses don't seem particularly interested (the ad boards at BM are about 75% empty and we seem to have the same 3 match sponsors on rotation), it's almost impossible to get a decent view at BM and the dawning reality is that it's likely we never will have a decent ground there. Now, some of this will be my own naivety of what to expect when heading back to Darlington, and it's no slight on the excellent volunteers who have worked so so hard to get us to where we are. But it all adds up to the question: where is the football club going? We can't afford to keep feeding Gray's demands for more money and we can barely afford to put in a cheap seated stand.

I understand the calls for outside investment. It breaks my heart what has happened to the football club. I long to be a football league club playing decent teams week in week out in a proper football stadium again. But the only 'investor' to have come forwards is the man who did more than any to put us in this situation. And if he has any control over the football club again then we really will be the laughing stock that MG thought we were in the summer.

So, as there's no outside investment and businesses don't seem that interested, we'll have to go it alone. Which means cutting our cloth accordingly. Our budget for this level is decent, and it would still be if we cut a bit of it to ensure the off the pitch progress caught up with the on the pitch progress which has happened over the last 5 years. We need a medium term plan to give the club a vision: the last few years have been about returning to Darlington. We now need to have a plan of where we're going over the next few years, and that plan can't mean giving in to MG's demands for money to compete with the likes of Salford and Harrogate.

[Vodka_Vic]

Word for word Al. Fantastic. Especially the bit about longing to be a football league club again. My son, who is a Darlo fan, reads Match magazine each week with the football league section in it, and he must get sick of me telling him that's where we used to be. I understand the need for quick success to get back there and not lose momentum, but I just don't think that's possible at the moment. People, including myself, have to let the past go and focus on the future. Feethams, the football league, they're all in the past. The football landscape is so awash with money that the old order has gone. Established football league teams like ourselves, Wrexham, Torquay, Stockport, Hartlepool, Halifax, York, we're not in that position any more. The new order are teams like Harrogate, Salford, Forest Green, Fleetwood Fylde, all bankrolled clubs. Football is not a level playing field any more, I hate it and it stinks, but it is what it is and we have to accept that for now.
We just need to get back to supporting the team and enjoying going to games without obsessing about chasing the rainbow.

[al_quaker]

Word for word Al. Fantastic. Especially the bit about longing to be a football league club again. My son, who is a Darlo fan, reads Match magazine each week with the football league section in it, and he must get sick of me telling him that's where we used to be. I understand the need for quick success to get back there and not lose momentum, but I just don't think that's possible at the moment. People, including myself, have to let the past go and focus on the future. Feethams, the football league, they're all in the past. The football landscape is so awash with money that the old order has gone. Established football league teams like ourselves, Wrexham, Torquay, Stockport, Hartlepool, Halifax, York, we're not in that position any more. The new order are teams like Harrogate, Salford, Forest Green, Fleetwood, all bankrolled clubs. Football is not a level playing field any more, I hate it and it stinks, but it is what it is and we have to accept that for now.

Indeed. It hurts watching clubs who don't have our history overtaking us, but we better get used to it.

There's no reason why we couldn't stabilise as a bottom half part time conference team in our current set up. A category A ground at BM with average crowds around 2k. It'll take time, and planning, but we could get there.

I highly doubt in our current structure we'll be in a position to be full time again unless we get a lucky promotion into the football league/a big cup run( ). Almost certainly not at BM where we have (probably) no chance of generating non-match day income. And this is why I, and probably many, are open to the idea of appropriate outside investment. It wouldn't just be about the playing side, it'd be about getting the off the pitch side sorted too. Even if it was subsidising a commercial officer to improve our (clearly pretty poor) links with local businesses.

But those people aren't out there, or they would have come forwards before now. If it's a choice between bloody Raj Singh or long term planning to try and be a PT team in the bottom half of the conference, then give me long term planning every single day of the week. We've just go to take a step back and actually do the planning.

[Beano]

There's no reason why we couldn't stabilise as a bottom half part time conference team in our current set up. A category A ground at BM with average crowds around 2k. It'll take time, and planning, but we could get there.

As much as I would love to this happen, I don't see it coming to fruition any time soon, and the ground issue is a massive millstone around our necks until it is resolved. In fact, it is *the* issue that will define the future of the club.

[Vodka_Vic]

This is where definitive clarification about long term strategy is essential. Any FL chairman will tell you that you won't survive without off field revenue from your ground. I assume that FL is where we want to be but then our new CEO on his first interview comes out and states that to survive long term in the FL we'll need our own ground. This is not going to entice people to put into the pitch funds and I think one of the reasons the pitch has stalled. Some people still seem to think we are at a crossroads and are waiting for investment but the only option at the moment is Raj and it's pretty much an open secret that he'd want to take us back to the Arena and develop revenue there once the council gives him the go ahead to redevelop it. Look how that ended last time? That option is unthinkable so we need a plan out there.

[al_quaker]

There's no reason why we couldn't stabilise as a bottom half part time conference team in our current set up. A category A ground at BM with average crowds around 2k. It'll take time, and planning, but we could get there.

As much as I would love to this happen, I don't see it coming to fruition any time soon, and the ground issue is a massive millstone around our necks until it is resolved. In fact, it is *the* issue that will define the future of the club.

I don't see it happening any time soon either. I just think it's a realistic aim which the club could/should be working towards over the medium term.

[Beano]

We will not get back into the FL, or NL for that matter, whilst at Blackwell Meadows.

The CEO is absolutely correct when he states that we need our own ground, or at least reside in one where we can generate off-field revenue streams, if we are to progress.

[al_quaker]

We will not get back into the FL, or NL for that matter, whilst at Blackwell Meadows.

The CEO is absolutely correct when he states that we need our own ground, or at least reside in one where we can generate off-field revenue streams, if we are to progress.

I disagree that we can't get into the National League at Blackwell Meadows given time and sensible growth/development.

I certainly agree we've no chance of being a FL side, or even a solid top half (probably even mid-table) NL side without external revenue sources, which we don't have at BM.

So the question may be: are we willing to invest hundreds of thousands into BM and accept yo-yoing between NL and NLN as our lot, or would that money be better put towards our own ground where there is the potential to grow the club beyond bottom half NL level, but with the tradeoff that we'd be stuck at NLN level for probably decades and then a whole generation of fans could be lost (so would we even have the crowd potential for FL anymore?!).