So, where do we go from here

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So, where do we go from here

Poll ended at Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:41 pm

Stick with Martin and his staff?
36
73%
Hope he's resigns and we can start afresh?
13
27%
 
Total votes: 49

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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by PierremontQuaker03 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:11 pm

The question I want answering is, that if a young player comes from Martin Grays academy and gets into the Darlo side, then is wanted by a bigger club and a transfer fee is involved - surely there is a conflict of interest. Surely that is the aim of the academy and that is how it is going to make money, but then the club will lose out.
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D_F_C
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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by D_F_C » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:12 pm

awful poll IMO. This is a man who in 5 years has won 3 promotions and in the 2 years he didn't win promotion, we finished in the playoffs. We are currently 2 points from the playoffs. I'm fully aware that form hasn't been great recently, but to question the managers position after that seems stupid to me.

You might not like Gray, you might not agree with everything he does, but he's a very good manager, especially for this level.

I ask two questions of you all:
1. What was your expectation at the start of the season? (Perhaps they are too high)
2. Who would be an upgrade on Gray?

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bertbanger
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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by bertbanger » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:23 pm

weve hit the ceiling we were always going to hit at some point, I think all sensible and realistic fans have been waiting for this since we got out of the Northern League, I don't blame Gray for this, hes done the best he can with the resources at his disposal

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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by super_les_mcjannet » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:26 pm

D_F_C wrote:awful poll IMO. This is a man who in 5 years has won 3 promotions and in the 2 years he didn't win promotion, we finished in the playoffs. We are currently 2 points from the playoffs. I'm fully aware that form hasn't been great recently, but to question the managers position after that seems stupid to me.

You might not like Gray, you might not agree with everything he does, but he's a very good manager, especially for this level.

I ask two questions of you all:
1. What was your expectation at the start of the season? (Perhaps they are too high)
2. Who would be an upgrade on Gray?
Agree with most of that D_F_C

I will make it clear for me I think Gray should stay and needs to clearly sort his team/squad out, his words really not mine. It would be a disaster to lose him though in terms of driving force.

The negatives for me on Gray is, asked for his budget not to be reduced whilst going behind the boards back to get some investment into the club (won't even go into the point of who it was). He then publicly on the clubs you tube interview advises he will speak to the board about more money when asked by Ray.

Gray seems to be telling us he can't do it without more money, we seem to largely be saying sorry Martin we should be concentrating on the infrastructure currently.

So where does that leave us, is Gray happy with that and will he go away and reduce his 21 man squad and move things around a little or does he say that's all I can do if you won't give me more to work with.

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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by Spyman » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:31 pm

D_F_C wrote:awful poll IMO. This is a man who in 5 years has won 3 promotions and in the 2 years he didn't win promotion, we finished in the playoffs. We are currently 2 points from the playoffs. I'm fully aware that form hasn't been great recently, but to question the managers position after that seems stupid to me.

You might not like Gray, you might not agree with everything he does, but he's a very good manager, especially for this level.

I ask two questions of you all:
1. What was your expectation at the start of the season? (Perhaps they are too high)
2. Who would be an upgrade on Gray?
I don't think the question of whether Gray stays or goes can be boiled down to simply the performances on the pitch over the last few years. It can't be questioned that we've come a long way under Gray.

However, he's done that by having it all his own way. Until this summer it seems he's always been given the money to bring in (largely) the best players and in hindsight we've spent beyond our means to achieve this.

He's not managed to string a cup run together to contribute financially, he's not managed to develop young players to sell on and contribute financially. He's just taken money contributed by supporters (and local businesses) and spent it on putting together a strong squad.

So yes, he's done well with the resources that have been provided to him - but beyond the results on the pitch what has he contributed for Darlington FC? It seems a very one-sided relationship which is built around Martin Gray being given what he wants. He exacerbated this in the spring with his comments at the fans forum.

To answer your questions:

1) My expectation at the start of the season was for us to finish top 7 with a squad very similar to last season's 5th placed squad. My hope was that we'd have the ground development funded as a priority and that if the playing squad had to take a back seat to allow this to happen, so be it.

2) I have no idea - but there are other perfectly competent managers out there beyond Martin Gray. Managers who will make the best of the resources available to them and not demand more money every time the team goes through a bad run.
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We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by Undercovered » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:02 pm

Spot on Spyman, whilst the run of results and the cup failure have brought things to the fore the debate around MG is more than just results. As you say he has more responsibility than that, especially in a fan owned club with finite resources. Personally whilst a good manager given the right resource I've never seen him the right fit for a fan owned sustainable club (if that's what we want to be). He clearly agrees as he's forever trying to force the issue and constantly dropping in the names of clubs with benefactors. If he wants to go and manage a club like Fylde, Salford or Harrogate then he should crack on. The trouble is that he's not only a football manager but also has his personal business firmly entwined around Darlington FC - that's why he doesn't want to leave but is desperate for the club to push on at any cost

My concern has always been the link between his business and DFC and whether his primary aim is Darlington FC continuing to exist and sustain or exploiting it to enhance his business and in turn his profit.
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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by spen666 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:13 pm

PierremontQuaker03 wrote:The question I want answering is, that if a young player comes from Martin Grays academy and gets into the Darlo side, then is wanted by a bigger club and a transfer fee is involved - surely there is a conflict of interest. Surely that is the aim of the academy and that is how it is going to make money, but then the club will lose out.
If that scenario occurs, then how would academy earn money? I thought rules (remember Carlos Tevez at West Ham) prevented more than one person owning a players registration.


Can the academy ask for or receive a transfer fee?

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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by DarloPeGi » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:16 pm

Darlo_Pete wrote:I think next weeks game is crucial, if we lose at Boston then we'll be close or in the relegation zone and the pressure will only build on Gray.
And if we win, we could be in the playoff zone as we are only two points off that !

The 'fine margins' ....

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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by lo36789 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:54 pm

DarloPeGi wrote:
Darlo_Pete wrote:I think next weeks game is crucial, if we lose at Boston then we'll be close or in the relegation zone and the pressure will only build on Gray.
And if we win, we could be in the playoff zone as we are only two points off that !

The 'fine margins' ....
They are not fine margins. We are 2 points off playoffs and 8 points off relegation. It is not even close.

Pete's statement is deliberate nonsense.

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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by darlo reborn » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:58 pm

Correct me if I`m wrong but are they only 2 fan run clubs in this league and look where the other one is struggling more than us.
Just proves that this league is as far as you can hope to go without investment

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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by super_les_mcjannet » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:24 pm

darlo reborn wrote:Correct me if I`m wrong but are they only 2 fan run clubs in this league and look where the other one is struggling more than us.
Just proves that this league is as far as you can hope to go without investment
Not sure it proves that at all, whilst I agree with the challenges of being fan owned.

If we had been allowed in play offs last year and won promotion would that have completely rule out the point "We can't progress past Nat North without an investor".

Also if two of the bottom three are not fan owned but are in the relegation zone surely that proves it's better to be fan run.

In truth it doesn't matter whether we are fan run or not because we have no investor wanting to be our own little sugar daddy to take us back to the Football League, it's not an option.

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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by lo36789 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:16 pm

darlo reborn wrote:Correct me if I`m wrong but are they only 2 fan run clubs in this league and look where the other one is struggling more than us.
Just proves that this league is as far as you can hope to go without investment
Surely the positions of the following clubs add a substantive counter argument to just looking at FC United?

AFC Wimbledon
Exeter City
Newport County
Wrexham
Wycombe Wanderers

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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by Allan Quatermain » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:31 pm

PierremontQuaker03 wrote:The question I want answering is, that if a young player comes from Martin Grays academy and gets into the Darlo side, then is wanted by a bigger club and a transfer fee is involved - surely there is a conflict of interest. Surely that is the aim of the academy and that is how it is going to make money, but then the club will lose out.
My take on this:

The academy is an educational establishment and is primarily aimed at giving the students an education whilst preparing them for a potential career as a footballer.

DFC has no claim on any of those players and MG has a responsibility to the students and some of their parents (depending on age) to get them the best offers he can. If the only offers are from Pools and us, the student and his family may well choose to go down the road. We would have no right to interfere or to debate that decision. However, there is nothing to stop them signing a playing registration to play for us but that doesn't mean they 'belong' to us.

The MGFA is not part of DFC and I'm really surprised that the football authorities and our own club allow them to use DFC badged strips and any other intellectual property owned by the football club.
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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by liddle_4_ever » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:00 pm

darlo reborn wrote:Correct me if I`m wrong but are they only 2 fan run clubs in this league and look where the other one is struggling more than us.
Just proves that this league is as far as you can hope to go without investment
Utter bollocks


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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by Spyman » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:28 pm

Allan Quatermain wrote:
PierremontQuaker03 wrote:The question I want answering is, that if a young player comes from Martin Grays academy and gets into the Darlo side, then is wanted by a bigger club and a transfer fee is involved - surely there is a conflict of interest. Surely that is the aim of the academy and that is how it is going to make money, but then the club will lose out.
My take on this:

The academy is an educational establishment and is primarily aimed at giving the students an education whilst preparing them for a potential career as a footballer.

DFC has no claim on any of those players and MG has a responsibility to the students and some of their parents (depending on age) to get them the best offers he can. If the only offers are from Pools and us, the student and his family may well choose to go down the road. We would have no right to interfere or to debate that decision. However, there is nothing to stop them signing a playing registration to play for us but that doesn't mean they 'belong' to us.

The MGFA is not part of DFC and I'm really surprised that the football authorities and our own club allow them to use DFC badged strips and any other intellectual property owned by the football club.
But as soon as they do sign for us (Harvey Saunders, for example) then 100% of any sale is ours presumably.

Presumably Gray's academy gets some kind of fee when they sign for a club, which brings an interesting conflict of interests if that club happens to be managed by him?

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On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

DC

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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by onewayup » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:51 pm

Martin Gray to start getting things right Which he will do ,the guy has done an excellent job over the last 6year's. And will do again, large bump in the road,but it can and will be levelled out.

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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:52 pm

Quote/quaker4life -- "I think some of them have gotten too comfortable the majority of them know that regardless they will be picked week in week out as there is nobody competing for their place, how many reserve players do we see challenging for a first team spot?"

Great point!
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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by D_F_C » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:02 pm

super_les_mcjannet wrote:
D_F_C wrote:awful poll IMO. This is a man who in 5 years has won 3 promotions and in the 2 years he didn't win promotion, we finished in the playoffs. We are currently 2 points from the playoffs. I'm fully aware that form hasn't been great recently, but to question the managers position after that seems stupid to me.

You might not like Gray, you might not agree with everything he does, but he's a very good manager, especially for this level.

I ask two questions of you all:
1. What was your expectation at the start of the season? (Perhaps they are too high)
2. Who would be an upgrade on Gray?
Agree with most of that D_F_C

I will make it clear for me I think Gray should stay and needs to clearly sort his team/squad out, his words really not mine. It would be a disaster to lose him though in terms of driving force.

The negatives for me on Gray is, asked for his budget not to be reduced whilst going behind the boards back to get some investment into the club (won't even go into the point of who it was). He then publicly on the clubs you tube interview advises he will speak to the board about more money when asked by Ray.

Gray seems to be telling us he can't do it without more money, we seem to largely be saying sorry Martin we should be concentrating on the infrastructure currently.

So where does that leave us, is Gray happy with that and will he go away and reduce his 21 man squad and move things around a little or does he say that's all I can do if you won't give me more to work with.
I think fans were really happy with that interview until about 2/3rds in. I'm not saying Gray is a saint. The stunt he pulled at the forum had me very worried about our football club. But IMO Gray is the best manager out there. Over the years he's proved that if players don't work for him he'll get shot.

One issue that may slow him down is...where do the replacements come from

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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by m62exile » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:07 pm

Allan Quatermain wrote:
PierremontQuaker03 wrote:The question I want answering is, that if a young player comes from Martin Grays academy and gets into the Darlo side, then is wanted by a bigger club and a transfer fee is involved - surely there is a conflict of interest. Surely that is the aim of the academy and that is how it is going to make money, but then the club will lose out.
My take on this:

The academy is an educational establishment and is primarily aimed at giving the students an education whilst preparing them for a potential career as a footballer.

DFC has no claim on any of those players and MG has a responsibility to the students and some of their parents (depending on age) to get them the best offers he can. If the only offers are from Pools and us, the student and his family may well choose to go down the road. We would have no right to interfere or to debate that decision. However, there is nothing to stop them signing a playing registration to play for us but that doesn't mean they 'belong' to us.

The MGFA is not part of DFC and I'm really surprised that the football authorities and our own club allow them to use DFC badged strips and any other intellectual property owned by the football club.
To avoid confusion I don’t believe the very many Darlington Youth FC junior teams are at all linked to MGFA, at least so far as I know. These young players from about 7 years up do wear the club badge and training kit. They tend to play in the TJFA.

MGFA I always thought is a coaching academy in and out of schools as well as college courses for youngsters over 16.

Happy to be corrected if that’s changed.

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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by Vodka_Vic » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:34 pm

Just interesting to read David Johnston's views on consolidating at this level for a couple of years. He obviously Shares MGs ambitions

"Where do you see the club being in two years?

In those two years we’ve got to get into the Conference and have a sustainable club. I’d like to think we could get out of the Conference, but it all depends on budget.

I’ve seen stuff around, people saying things like ‘it’s okay if Martin Gray leaves, we’ll just stay at this level, or whatever’, but I don’t see it that way and I’m prepared to discuss that with the fans.

Football is a competitive game and you’ve got to think about your squad. They want to play at the highest level they can, the staff have played at a higher level and they want to get back there. If you’re saying that you’re content to stay at this level then you’re not going to attract the best players, and at that point you’re on a downward slope and the club begins to go backwards, gets into financial difficulty and goes out of operation, and we can’t allow that to happen.”

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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by grimsbyquaker » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:02 pm

Vic....almost MG's forum rant but in a business suit. Watch this space as soon as the seats pitch comes up short??? Who knows?

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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by Undercovered » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:24 pm

Vodka_Vic wrote: Football is a competitive game and you’ve got to think about your squad. They want to play at the highest level they can, the staff have played at a higher level and they want to get back there. If you’re saying that you’re content to stay at this level then you’re not going to attract the best players, and at that point you’re on a downward slope and the club begins to go backwards, gets into financial difficulty and goes out of operation, and we can’t allow that to happen.”
Couldn't be more inaccurate if he tried.

If that was the case there'd be far more clubs going to the wall than there are. Clubs just ended up bobbing around having periods of success and decline. We stagnated in league 2 for 20 years and it wasn't that which almost killed us off, it was a single man's influence to try and get us out of there that did for us.

The ones that go out of operation are those which spend beyond their means to try and achieve a level they cannot realistically reach - I know which one we're closer to being at the moment.

Scare tactics initiated by one man with an agenda.
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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by Darlo_Pete » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:02 am

I think our squad hasn't improved on last season and the players we had last season and this have generally had a dip in form. Plus many sides seem to have upgraded their squads. So to expect a play-off place at the end of the season, perhaps is a tad unrealistic.

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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by tezza » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:53 am

Undercovered wrote:
Vodka_Vic wrote: Football is a competitive game and you’ve got to think about your squad. They want to play at the highest level they can, the staff have played at a higher level and they want to get back there. If you’re saying that you’re content to stay at this level then you’re not going to attract the best players, and at that point you’re on a downward slope and the club begins to go backwards, gets into financial difficulty and goes out of operation, and we can’t allow that to happen.”
Couldn't be more inaccurate if he tried.

We stagnated in league 2 for 20 years and it wasn't that which almost killed us off, it was a single man's influence to try and get us out of there that did for us.

The ones that go out of operation are those which spend beyond their means to try and achieve a level they cannot realistically reach - I know which one we're closer to being at the moment.

Scare tactics initiated by one man with an agenda.


Nailed it

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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by lo36789 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:24 am

Darlo_Pete wrote:I think our squad hasn't improved on last season and the players we had last season and this have generally had a dip in form. Plus many sides seem to have upgraded their squads. So to expect a play-off place at the end of the season, perhaps is a tad unrealistic.
So we in effect we replaced;
Falkingham with Wheatley
Burgess (in the starting XI) with Collins

We cannot claim to be in a net deficit position with regard quality of players. There are also an additional 2 playoff places available this year which balances out the increase in full time teams.

I think to expect us to be fighting for playoffs was therefore not unrealistic, players have had a dip in form that is fine. You tend to base expectations on players maintaining a certain level of performance which hasn't really happened.

Regardless we are still hugely in playoff contention. If we can turn a few draws into wins against the poorer sides in the division we are there. I'll be honest I think our problems have stemmed from our injury issues at the back. It has meant Ferguson (one of our main attacking threats) has been deployed more defensively.

It showed at the start of the season when we have Ferguson and Gillies free on the wings we are extremely dangerous and can stretch other sides. If I am honest I'd prefer we set up 4-5-1. Wheatley/Portas and Turnbull can tidy up in front of the defence and allow Ferguson / Syers / Gillies to play off Beck.

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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by roadrunner » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:07 am

The only difference is we've lost our long throws which was key to our success
Brown throw in, flick on , GOAL , GOAL
Then teams come out and the likes of Gillies,Thompson,Syers, Ferguson start to play the good open football .

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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by TDS » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:58 am

As South Shields showed, we cannot carry players who will not graft 100% and with Gillies, Syers, Caton and an immobile Beck it makes us completely toothless when we don't have the ball. Oh look, we bring Cartman in to harass and we win 3-0 with 10 men (granted poor team but much improved).

Once we can play Fergie on the left, with a support man for Beck and again support for Turnbull, we can handle having Gillies on the wing because he has support from CM in Wheatley or Portas. We can start pressuring teams.

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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by Quakerz » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:12 am

TDS wrote:Oh look, we bring Cartman in to harass and we win 3-0 with 10 men (granted poor team but much improved).
Actually we brought Cartman back and drew 0-0 with Leamington, playing every bit as badly overall as we did v Shields. The only reason we didn't get dicked 3-0 that day was because Leamington were fucking, fucking, fucking shite, and had zero ambition.

So as much as you're trying to suggest that Cartman = results because of the FCUM result - I can equally suggest that it doesn't because of the Leamington result.

Not Cartman's fault of course because there's 11 in a team.
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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by TDS » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:35 am

Quakerz wrote:
TDS wrote:Oh look, we bring Cartman in to harass and we win 3-0 with 10 men (granted poor team but much improved).
Actually we brought Cartman back and drew 0-0 with Leamington, playing every bit as badly overall as we did v Shields. The only reason we didn't get dicked 3-0 that day was because Leamington were fucking, fucking, fucking shite, and had zero ambition.

So as much as you're trying to suggest that Cartman = results because of the FCUM result - I can equally suggest that it doesn't because of the Leamington result.

Not Cartman's fault of course because there's 11 in a team.
I mean we miss the effort from the front, Beck is a giraffe lets be honest.

Cartman embodies what Gray wants as a minimum. Now I was happy for him to go this season and still want more goals for him.

Not to mention against Leamington we - again - went for Syers, Gillies and Caton. Something which we did not see Vs FCUM as Caton missed a hat-trick of opportunities at Leamington and was dropped.

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Re: So, where do we go from here

Post by loan_star » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:44 am

Undercovered wrote:it was a single man's influence to try and get us out of there that did for us.
A bit of history rewriting there. We have been in trouble long before Reynolds etc came along. Even the good years under Corden were done at substantial risk to the club and it was only the efforts of John Brockbank that stopped us going under then too! Then there was the crisis in the early 80s.
We have gone from one crisis to another over the years so you cant just lay all the problems at the door of Reynolds.

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