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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:25 pm 
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We all assume York will only sign players who want full-time football. That they will necessarily retain their full-time model or not adopt some hybrid solution. They may want a mix of players to cut costs. In any case, full-time is a notional concept. I don't think Harrogate players will train every day from what I hear.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:02 pm 
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I'm sure I heard somewhere that Ferguson had a £30k release cause in his contract. Don't know how right that his mind.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:07 pm 
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30k would pay for most of the roof. I'd take it, to be honest.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:08 pm 
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If we sell the odd player so be it ...stepping stone and all that ...but it doesn't wanna be for undisclosed fee malarkey. I hope we have people left on the board with the desire to drive us forward , we're looking a bit thin on the ground . Same with players if a couple leave . In fact the only thing we seem to have in abundance is no nothing gobshites who would serve the club they claim to support better by shutting the F up be it telling players they are sh ite or posting bollocks on social media .


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:13 pm 
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H1987 wrote:
30k would pay for most of the roof. I'd take it, to be honest.


:roll:

It won't pay for any of the roof FFS.

*IF* we get any compensation for Gray, and/or a decent transfer fee for any players - it will 100% be swallowed up by running costs.

If we got silly money like 100k or something, then maybe a bit towards the roof...

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:19 pm 
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Quakerz wrote:
H1987 wrote:
30k would pay for most of the roof. I'd take it, to be honest.


:roll:

It won't pay for any of the roof FFS.

*IF* we get any compensation for Gray, and/or a decent transfer fee for any players - it will 100% be swallowed up by running costs.

If we got silly money like 100k or something, then maybe a bit towards the roof...


Why? Were we going to run at a 30k deficit if he stays?

It would be unexpected, not budgeted income that should be redirected.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:23 pm 
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H1987 wrote:
Quakerz wrote:
H1987 wrote:
30k would pay for most of the roof. I'd take it, to be honest.


:roll:

It won't pay for any of the roof FFS.

*IF* we get any compensation for Gray, and/or a decent transfer fee for any players - it will 100% be swallowed up by running costs.

If we got silly money like 100k or something, then maybe a bit towards the roof...


Why? Were we going to run at a 30k deficit if he stays?

It would be unexpected, not budgeted income that should be redirected.
Yeh but if attendances have fallen short of budgeted figures then we have a hole to fill.

And Martin Gray 'sticking to budget's doesn't mean we're not running at a loss.

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On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:
Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

DC


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:24 pm 
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I bet you we are already in deficit to expected budget, hence where the money will go.

Barring an increase in attendance or FA Trophy run, we won't hit our revenue targets. If you think otherwise you are very naive and not looking at our past records.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:34 pm 
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then obviously we arent being run as we should if we are running a defecit.
should budget accordingly with low expectations. if this is true this will have a great effect on any fundraising as who in there right mind would give money to the club when they have had 40k for players extra and still cant run on an even budget........


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:43 pm 
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Gray generally ran to the budget allowed unfortunately we seem to be too hopeful on revenues.

What do you think we set our expected average attendances this season. I reckon 1800 minimum, possibly 2000. What will we hit, maybe 1600.

Say 200 below expected attendances at average price of £9 is £1,800 a match £37,800 in total. Remove the VAT as we wouldn't base that so rough estimate with 200 down would be 31k short.

Then think about sponsorship/hospitality if not hitting targets. You can see how it can soon hit a large figure.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:44 pm 
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You might be right, but in theory, we should not. We've been bitten before by over-forecasting income. I'd be very, very disappointed if we've done so again.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:48 pm 
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H1987 wrote:
You might be right, but in theory, we should not. We've been bitten before by over-forecasting income. I'd be very, very disappointed if we've done so again.


What would you have set the expected attendance at before the season started with York, Blyth & Spenny joining us and an expected promotion push.

I would have guessed at 1800 overall, we may reach it yet.

Gray said he wanted his budget protecting and it was done. You reduce expected gate by 300 and you reduce his budget by 45k.

Someone has to make those decisions, probably why currently Gray leaving may be the best thing for our Board.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:51 pm 
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to be honest i would of set something like 1500 but then thats because im cautious.
then have a giving fund for players like we did this year to boost the playing side. we just had too much to raise this year as if there was no stand to pay i think we would have easily made the budget for the playing side


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:55 pm 
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H1987 wrote:
You might be right, but in theory, we should not. We've been bitten before by over-forecasting income. I'd be very, very disappointed if we've done so again.


Easy to say in hindsight, but it can't be easy.

I agree with Trike in that we would have been better off under budgeting - BUT - Gray would have gone and a lot of fans at the time wouldn't have been happy.

I also think we've all been too optimistic regarding how crowds would bounce back in Darlo, how we would get more sponsorship because businesses would be queueing up etc - but businesses aren't spending on non essentials at the moment. I don't think people are either.

I doubt many people would have forecast crowds as low as 1,200 before September was even out - this is a big wake up call and we can't totally blame the board if they shared the view with a lot of fans that we'd be getting more every week.

Let's not forget that setting a budget is a forecast really. And further to that, gate income only makes up about 50% of total income so there are a lot of others factors to forecast income on. More chance to get it wrong.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:13 pm 
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If this is still a post about York City transfer targets, I'll chip in here. The one player I never want to see leave is Gary Brown. For me anyway, he's always our best player and he's been so loyal and consistent.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:22 pm 
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Feethams 1966 wrote:
If this is still a post about York City transfer targets, I'll chip in here. The one player I never want to see leave is Gary Brown. For me anyway, he's always our best player and he's been so loyal and consistent.



.... and never needed more than right now, both on and off the pitch.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:50 pm 
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I think most of his targets would be people he had lined up for us but we could not finance them


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:55 pm 
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Quakerz wrote:
H1987 wrote:
You might be right, but in theory, we should not. We've been bitten before by over-forecasting income. I'd be very, very disappointed if we've done so again.


Easy to say in hindsight, but it can't be easy.

I agree with Trike in that we would have been better off under budgeting - BUT - Gray would have gone and a lot of fans at the time wouldn't have been happy.

I also think we've all been too optimistic regarding how crowds would bounce back in Darlo, how we would get more sponsorship because businesses would be queueing up etc - but businesses aren't spending on non essentials at the moment. I don't think people are either.

I doubt many people would have forecast crowds as low as 1,200 before September was even out - this is a big wake up call and we can't totally blame the board if they shared the view with a lot of fans that we'd be getting more every week.

Let's not forget that setting a budget is a forecast really. And further to that, gate income only makes up about 50% of total income so there are a lot of others factors to forecast income on. More chance to get it wrong.


Yeah, they've not been what I would have hoped for either, but i'm not in the business of budgeting for a football club which has had problems with funding before. If i was, i'd be cautious to plan for a worst case scenario, and if they are higher, than that is bonus to be re-invested.

Unfortunately I do believe the crowds are a chicken and egg scenario. I think they've been low because whenever we've drawn a decent crowd, Blackwell has creaked at the seams, and people have left disappointed that they couldn't see properly, that they can't get a seat, or that heck, it just doesn't feel like a football ground yet. For a lot of folk, they want the opportunity to sit, they want to feel like they're in a proper stadium. Blackwell right now is sub par. Of course, we don't have the money to throw at it immediately to instantly grow the crowds, so maybe it'll take time. I don't have the answers, i just hope we've been cautious forecasting. I've said before, and i'll say again, it's just not sustainable asking folks to chuck more and more money in.

As for transfer moneys coming in, i accept the entire 30k might not, but i'd like to think a good chunk could go to the roof. 10k even would be a massive, massive boost. I hope we're due compensation for Gray as well. Him going and taking a couple of players might inflict some short term pain results wise, but be a long term gain for this club if we can generate the income to improve the infrastructure. More seats for kids to actually see the game, another terrace at the other end... It all helps a lot more than us missing out on the playoffs this year.


Last edited by H1987 on Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:44 pm 
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I am probably being extremely dumb here but what is our club ethos? I thought we were a fan based club in which a goodly chunk of what has kept the whole thing rolling along was by the good grace and the deep pockets of the fans. When a player is signed to a contract and then wants to leave for a better offer elsewhere I would think if they were let go at a loss to the club financially that whoever took that decision should be obliged to justify it to the fans who have afforded them in the first place. All that I've been reading above seems to suggest that the fans are powerless to stop a manager and several players leaving without reimbursement for what has been contributed by the fans. If this is the way that a fan based club is run I see very little difference between this and being at the whim of a Reynolds or a Singh.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:07 pm 
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Have just seen the glorious news on the other thread that our payback for the snatching of MG by York is a pathetic friendly where all of the massive proceeds will go to Darlo. So this means that to get any compensation for MG leaving Darlo fans will have to shell out yet again to get into this match. I don't see where we receive anything by having this match arranged. For me I'd be quite happy to see no one from Darlo attend and that we send the under 11 team along to compete.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:24 am 
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Well our current squad looks like this.

GK: Bartlett, Wilczynski
DEF: Hunter, Marrs, Brown, Galbraith, Ferguson, Collins
MID: Gillies, Syers, Thompson, Turnbull, Scott, Hume, Portas, Dawson.
STR: Beck, Cartman, Saunders, Caton, Mendes

Transfer list: Burgess

Based on pure guesswork I reckon some of the players included in grays 3 would be a combination of: Bartlett, Ferguson, Gillies and Beck.

All I'd know is I'd want at least 25k per each of those players. They are all contracted we do not have to sell. If you want them it has to be worth our while.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:33 am 
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en passant wrote:
I am probably being extremely dumb here but what is our club ethos? I thought we were a fan based club in which a goodly chunk of what has kept the whole thing rolling along was by the good grace and the deep pockets of the fans. When a player is signed to a contract and then wants to leave for a better offer elsewhere I would think if they were let go at a loss to the club financially that whoever took that decision should be obliged to justify it to the fans who have afforded them in the first place. All that I've been reading above seems to suggest that the fans are powerless to stop a manager and several players leaving without reimbursement for what has been contributed by the fans. If this is the way that a fan based club is run I see very little difference between this and being at the whim of a Reynolds or a Singh.


Did Singh (or Houghton) use their own money?

I was under the impression they took out loans against the clubs assets and then left those debts against the club rather than themselves?

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On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:
Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

DC


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:05 am 
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en passant wrote:
I am probably being extremely dumb here but what is our club ethos? I thought we were a fan based club in which a goodly chunk of what has kept the whole thing rolling along was by the good grace and the deep pockets of the fans. When a player is signed to a contract and then wants to leave for a better offer elsewhere I would think if they were let go at a loss to the club financially that whoever took that decision should be obliged to justify it to the fans who have afforded them in the first place. All that I've been reading above seems to suggest that the fans are powerless to stop a manager and several players leaving without reimbursement for what has been contributed by the fans. If this is the way that a fan based club is run I see very little difference between this and being at the whim of a Reynolds or a Singh.



What alternative is there for the club?

Stop Gray or anyother player leaving? You then have an unhappy employee.

What could club do if MG was forced to stay, picked striker as goalkeeper, named youth team/ etc and deliberately lost games?

Or if player is not trying?

Sack them? That puts club in same position as now, except club now has reputation of not looking after players/ managers etc

There is no real solution from a club's point of view

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:08 am 
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spen666 wrote:
en passant wrote:
I am probably being extremely dumb here but what is our club ethos? I thought we were a fan based club in which a goodly chunk of what has kept the whole thing rolling along was by the good grace and the deep pockets of the fans. When a player is signed to a contract and then wants to leave for a better offer elsewhere I would think if they were let go at a loss to the club financially that whoever took that decision should be obliged to justify it to the fans who have afforded them in the first place. All that I've been reading above seems to suggest that the fans are powerless to stop a manager and several players leaving without reimbursement for what has been contributed by the fans. If this is the way that a fan based club is run I see very little difference between this and being at the whim of a Reynolds or a Singh.



What alternative is there for the club?

Stop Gray or anyother player leaving? You then have an unhappy employee.

What could club do if MG was forced to stay, picked striker as goalkeeper, named youth team/ etc and deliberately lost games?

Or if player is not trying?

Sack them? That puts club in same position as now, except club now has reputation of not looking after players/ managers etc

There is no real solution from a club's point of view

You make sure they have a contract that doesn't allow them to leave without fair recompense for the club.

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On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:
Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

DC


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:14 am 
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Spyman wrote:
...
You make sure they have a contract that doesn't allow them to leave without fair recompense for the club.



But say for example contract says to poach manager you have to pay £100k.

Club refuse to pay that.

Manager is unhappy and stops motivating team, makes crap selections, stupid substitutions etc...what do you do?

All you can do is sack manager which means he is free to leave and jopin other club without compensation anyway

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:24 am 
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spen666 wrote:
en passant wrote:
I am probably being extremely dumb here but what is our club ethos? I thought we were a fan based club in which a goodly chunk of what has kept the whole thing rolling along was by the good grace and the deep pockets of the fans. When a player is signed to a contract and then wants to leave for a better offer elsewhere I would think if they were let go at a loss to the club financially that whoever took that decision should be obliged to justify it to the fans who have afforded them in the first place. All that I've been reading above seems to suggest that the fans are powerless to stop a manager and several players leaving without reimbursement for what has been contributed by the fans. If this is the way that a fan based club is run I see very little difference between this and being at the whim of a Reynolds or a Singh.



What alternative is there for the club?

Stop Gray or anyother player leaving? You then have an unhappy employee.

What could club do if MG was forced to stay, picked striker as goalkeeper, named youth team/ etc and deliberately lost games?

Or if player is not trying?

Sack them? That puts club in same position as now, except club now has reputation of not looking after players/ managers etc

There is no real solution from a club's point of view


It was a choice to allow him to leave immediately, irrespective of the contract. York clearly were ready to move and wanted to do so quickly. A few hours or even a few days would have given us leverage. I don't believe York would have just appointed somebody else in that instance, they would have come back to see what would have been necessary to get their man.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:27 am 
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spen666 wrote:
Spyman wrote:
...
You make sure they have a contract that doesn't allow them to leave without fair recompense for the club.



But say for example contract says to poach manager you have to pay £100k.

Club refuse to pay that.

Manager is unhappy and stops motivating team, makes crap selections, stupid substitutions etc...what do you do?


All you can do is sack manager which means he is free to leave and jopin other club without compensation anyway

No different to the last 6 weeks then


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:30 am 
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spen666 wrote:
Spyman wrote:
...
You make sure they have a contract that doesn't allow them to leave without fair recompense for the club.



But say for example contract says to poach manager you have to pay £100k.

Club refuse to pay that.

Manager is unhappy and stops motivating team, makes crap selections, stupid substitutions etc...what do you do?

All you can do is sack manager which means he is free to leave and jopin other club without compensation anyway

You can't account for childish behaviour, can you?

If the manager signs the contract saying he can leave but only for £100k, and no club wants to offer £100k for him, what has he got to be unhappy about? His employer is just sticking to the agreement and so should he.

If the manager stops doing his job to the best of his ability, and quite publically to force a move, then you'd hope that future employers would be put off hiring him anyway.

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On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:
Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

DC


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:41 am 
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JE93 wrote:
Well our current squad looks like this.

GK: Bartlett, Wilczynski
DEF: Hunter, Marrs, Brown, Galbraith, Ferguson, Collins
MID: Gillies, Syers, Thompson, Turnbull, Scott, Hume, Portas, Dawson.
STR: Beck, Cartman, Saunders, Caton, Mendes

Transfer list: Burgess

Based on pure guesswork I reckon some of the players included in grays 3 would be a combination of: Bartlett, Ferguson, Gillies and Beck.

All I'd know is I'd want at least 25k per each of those players. They are all contracted we do not have to sell. If you want them it has to be worth our while.


Did I make this up in my head, but didn't burgess go back to whitby? Therefore not with us anymore?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:46 am 
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Spyman wrote:
...
You can't account for childish behaviour, can you?

If the manager signs the contract saying he can leave but only for £100k, and no club wants to offer £100k for him, what has he got to be unhappy about? His employer is just sticking to the agreement and so should he.

If the manager stops doing his job to the best of his ability, and quite publically to force a move, then you'd hope that future employers would be put off hiring him anyway.



I am not criticising Darlington.

The club are in am impossible situation.

Keep the manager/ player who is unhappy. His unhappiness upsets club spirit etc or let him leave.

Let him leave means contracts are effectively worthless.

As there is no manager registration, unlike players, the situation is worse as you can't prevent manager going.



also, being realistic, DFC cannot afford to litigate over breach of contract. The club could not afford the legal bill to take case to court

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