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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:37 pm 
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jjljks wrote:
With Collins red carded, surely we need to recall Vaulks and/or Burgess?
Why..Burgess is not good enough according to most fans and Vaulks is on a months loan which you probably can't recall..Shite happens I'm affraid we have to get on with it


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 8:42 pm 
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QUAKERMAN2 wrote:
Let's get behind the management and players Gramps, a lot of frustration has been released on this message board but we have all had a say so we need to move forward and get behind Tommy and Alan starting tomorrow.

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If we carry on like this, it's obvious what will happen. We'll be relegated, then Wright will leave after a shocking start in the NPL.

I'm sorry, but I can't get behind a manager I didn't want and don't have confidence in. I was underwhelmed when he was appointed and think even less of him as a manager now.

I want to be proved wrong but suspect I won't be.

I don't think he's capable of turning this around and unfortunately we're stuck with him because of our financial position.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 8:51 pm 
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Darlogramps wrote:
biccynana wrote:
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Allardyce must coach these basic facts into his players over and over and over again.............. and it works.


Up to a point, fat cat. Even including his Everton career, Allardyce’s Prem Leg win percentage is only 34% (only the 13th best of current PL managers), according to http://www.1sports1.com/premier-league-managers-ranked-by-their-win-percentage/. His career win percentage in all managerial posts is 39.5%.
To judge someone on win percentage alone is reductionist and flawed. A win ratio of 1 in 3 for a side in a relegation battle is a good ratio (works out at about 13 wins in the Premier League, which is 39 points, which usually will keep a side up).

Different story if it's a title chasing club but Allardyce has rarely been in that situation. Usually he's given a brief to keep a side up, and that's what he does (Sunderland, Palace, West Ham, Blackburn, Bolton, now Everton).

His biggest PL failure was Newcastle, where there was more expectation. Is it simply a case of horses for courses with Allardyce? The ideal bottom-half Premier League manager, but not someone you'd appoint if you're after Champions League football.


Fair point, gramps. Like the man said there are lies, damned lies and statistics. I suppose no one set of stats can tell a whole story, and the same set of stats can carry different weight depending on the circumstances, as you point out.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 8:53 pm 
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Spyman wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Spyman wrote:
Compare us to Crystal Palace, who last season had the ultimate in play-to-your-strengths simple football under Allardyce.

Over the summer they traded that for De Boer who tried to get a limited squad to completely alter playing style over night and asked them to play an unfamiliar formation and base their game on possession football. Great of the players are good enough or you have enough players familiar with that style, but he tried to change it over the course of a pre-season.

They then revert to a pragmatic manager in Hodgson who builds his team's on organisation and doing the simple things right and they immediately start getting results.

For all the criticism about Gray and the style of football he played, it's a style the probably only needed tweaking and we probably only have players who could cope with a tweaking of this style. To try and overhaul the entire style and system of the team is too much and it seems it's showing.

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Thing is though, he may be overhauling the playing style - but does he know what to?

It just seems to me a really scattergun approach, that he's hoping it will click. He's had nearly three months in charge and I have no idea what his philosophy is, or what he's trying to achieve with the squad. Does he even know? And if so, does he know how to achieve that? I've seen nothing to suggest he does.

If we've no contingency for going down, then we must do everything we can to stay up. Quite literally, we can't afford to go down.

On that basis, and on his abysmal previous record as a manager, I have no confidence in Wright turning this around. Let's face it, if he wasn't an ex-Darlo player, we wouldn't have gone near him for the job in the first place.

Turnbull and Brown did a far better job in their brief spell in charge than Wright has done since.
Think I'm probably with you on that, bit as we've seen before, constant chopping and changing of management often makes things worse not better.

Hopefully Wright is aware enough to go back to basics - particularly over a tough couple of upcoming matches, and we can at least be competitive. Another change in manager so soon certainly won't look good so let's hope he turns it around.



Maybe, but I'd say it's worse to keep a failing manager who is not up to the task.

It's up to Wright to prove he is capable of improving things. In his three months in charge, he is yet to do that.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:29 pm 
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HarrytheQuaker wrote:
jjljks wrote:
With Collins red carded, surely we need to recall Vaulks and/or Burgess?
Why..Burgess is not good enough according to most fans and Vaulks is on a months loan which you probably can't recall..Shite happens I'm affraid we have to get on with it


It's usual for a clause to be put into a loan period, that a player can be recalled in an emergency and I'd say this is an emergency. Get Vaulks back and into the first team, he was impressive against Boro under 23's, when few others shined.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:21 pm 
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Talks a great game, doesn't have a clue


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:11 am 
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It is so disappointing that there are so many virtually baying for blood here now.

We were playing absolute rubbish football before TW came in and he has had but a short time to turn things around. Yes he looks like he has made mistakes but he is a young manager and still learning, but the football has been better to watch with young players to come through. Now is the time for us true fans just to back the team to the end of the season, they are short of confidence so instead of us fans becoming the 12th man we are in danger of becoming the minus one man.

I have been as critical as anyone when watching home and away but have given my head a shake and think we as fans can actually help the team gain in confidence by getting behind them now till the end of the season what ever the result (as long as they are trying).

At the end of the season we can review how it went.

Up the Quakers!!!!


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:25 am 
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50 years wrote:
It is so disappointing that there are so many virtually baying for blood here now.

We were playing absolute rubbish football before TW came in and he has had but a short time to turn things around. Yes he looks like he has made mistakes but he is a young manager and still learning, but the football has been better to watch with young players to come through. Now is the time for us true fans just to back the team to the end of the season, they are short of confidence so instead of us fans becoming the 12th man we are in danger of becoming the minus one man.

I have been as critical as anyone when watching home and away but have given my head a shake and think we as fans can actually help the team gain in confidence by getting behind them now till the end of the season what ever the result (as long as they are trying).

At the end of the season we can review how it went.

Up the Quakers!!!!


The football is not better to watch. We're getting dicked every week and Wright has no gameplan to improve things.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:42 am 
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We will just have to have different views. For me I was disappointed with the long ball week after week and believe I am seeing the team trying to play football (we were getting dicked before TW as well :) ). May not be the right players or formations but think they will get there in the end (of course I may be wrong and have been before). Just think now is the time for us to stand with the team as if the fans get on the players and managers backs they will get nervous at making mistakes and are already low on confidence.

Just my view of course.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:06 am 
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50 years wrote:
We will just have to have different views. For me I was disappointed with the long ball week after week and believe I am seeing the team trying to play football (we were getting dicked before TW as well :) ). May not be the right players or formations but think they will get there in the end (of course I may be wrong and have been before). Just think now is the time for us to stand with the team as if the fans get on the players and managers backs they will get nervous at making mistakes and are already low on confidence.

Just my view of course.

My view also, good post, let's ALL get behind Tommy and the boys.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:11 am 
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HarrytheQuaker wrote:
jjljks wrote:
With Collins red carded, surely we need to recall Vaulks and/or Burgess?
Why..Burgess is not good enough according to most fans and Vaulks is on a months loan which you probably can't recall..Shite happens I'm affraid we have to get on with it


Thought the whole point of loans is that while we don't have a need for a player then happy to see them gaining match fitness with another team, but if we have an unforeseen need
(Like Dom Collins red card) then we can recall players? Vaulks is my preferred choice and this could be his breakthrough chance.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:45 am 
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50 years wrote:
We will just have to have different views. For me I was disappointed with the long ball week after week and believe I am seeing the team trying to play football (we were getting dicked before TW as well :) ). May not be the right players or formations but think they will get there in the end (of course I may be wrong and have been before). Just think now is the time for us to stand with the team as if the fans get on the players and managers backs they will get nervous at making mistakes and are already low on confidence.

Just my view of course.
I'm genuinely surprised you think our error-strewn, directionless, gutless displays are better to watch than us beating Salford earlier in the season. They're really not.

And to call Gray a long ball manager is incorrect. He was pragmatic yes, but we played some more passing-based football too.

I've never understand why the long ball game is reviled, and passing the ball is revered. There's no right way to play the game. So long as we have a plan and get results. Under Gray we did that, under Wright we look clueless.

Not that I'm hankering for a return of Martin Gray of course. But we need some coherence to our play, which Wright isn't giving us.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:01 am 
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I’ll bore people again with a comparison to Hearts. Craig Levein returns and pretty much does what was listed for Allerdyce.

Footballers are generally thick or so conditioned to playing one way they don’t often adapt.

Tell a centre back to win headers, make successful tackles and clear the ball from danger and they can relate to that. Nail that and a la Hearts all of a sudden your team starts picking up points from 0-0’s. A few games later you’re nicking 1-0’s. Before you know it the team have a 7 or 8 game unbeaten run to then start tweaking one thing with one player.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:17 am 
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Darlogramps wrote:
50 years wrote:
We will just have to have different views. For me I was disappointed with the long ball week after week and believe I am seeing the team trying to play football (we were getting dicked before TW as well :) ). May not be the right players or formations but think they will get there in the end (of course I may be wrong and have been before). Just think now is the time for us to stand with the team as if the fans get on the players and managers backs they will get nervous at making mistakes and are already low on confidence.

Just my view of course.
I'm genuinely surprised you think our error-strewn, directionless, gutless displays are better to watch than us beating Salford earlier in the season. They're really not.

And to call Gray a long ball manager is incorrect. He was pragmatic yes, but we played some more passing-based football too.

I've never understand why the long ball game is reviled, and passing the ball is revered. There's no right way to play the game. So long as we have a plan and get results. Under Gray we did that, under Wright we look clueless.

Not that I'm hankering for a return of Martin Gray of course. But we need some coherence to our play, which Wright isn't giving us.
From the York game though we've been s***. I'd rather watch us try to play football and be s*** over what we had since York.

At the end of the day we are where we are and I'm not sure there would be any point changing manager at this time, I'm not even 100% certain a relegation would harm us that much as I think we are currently settling towards core support who would come anyway.

We were going to have a blip season sooner rather than later, and as fans we've faced far worse than a relegation so I'm willing to back the manager if what we get means greater stability in the long term.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:35 am 
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shawry wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
50 years wrote:
We will just have to have different views. For me I was disappointed with the long ball week after week and believe I am seeing the team trying to play football (we were getting dicked before TW as well :) ). May not be the right players or formations but think they will get there in the end (of course I may be wrong and have been before). Just think now is the time for us to stand with the team as if the fans get on the players and managers backs they will get nervous at making mistakes and are already low on confidence.

Just my view of course.
I'm genuinely surprised you think our error-strewn, directionless, gutless displays are better to watch than us beating Salford earlier in the season. They're really not.

And to call Gray a long ball manager is incorrect. He was pragmatic yes, but we played some more passing-based football too.

I've never understand why the long ball game is reviled, and passing the ball is revered. There's no right way to play the game. So long as we have a plan and get results. Under Gray we did that, under Wright we look clueless.

Not that I'm hankering for a return of Martin Gray of course. But we need some coherence to our play, which Wright isn't giving us.
From the York game though we've been s***. I'd rather watch us try to play football and be s*** over what we had since York.



But why is playing a passing game more preferable to taking a pragmatic approach? So long as we get the ball in the net, that's all that matters. You don't get bonus points for playing passing football so I don't get why it's seen as being what we have to do. It's a massive fallacy that it's better to play the passing game.

Trying to take a passing approach is seeing us getting thrashed week in, week out. Wright doesn't know how to achieve it.

We were at least competitive under Gray. Under Wright, we've gone backwards with no sign of improvement.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:55 am 
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Darlogramps wrote:
50 years wrote:
We will just have to have different views. For me I was disappointed with the long ball week after week and believe I am seeing the team trying to play football (we were getting dicked before TW as well :) ). May not be the right players or formations but think they will get there in the end (of course I may be wrong and have been before). Just think now is the time for us to stand with the team as if the fans get on the players and managers backs they will get nervous at making mistakes and are already low on confidence.

Just my view of course.
I'm genuinely surprised you think our error-strewn, directionless, gutless displays are better to watch than us beating Salford earlier in the season. They're really not.

And to call Gray a long ball manager is incorrect. He was pragmatic yes, but we played some more passing-based football too.


I've never understand why the long ball game is reviled, and passing the ball is revered. There's no right way to play the game. So long as we have a plan and get results. Under Gray we did that, under Wright we look clueless.

Not that I'm hankering for a return of Martin Gray of course. But we need some coherence to our play, which Wright isn't giving us.


What results did we get from Gray in his last 10 matches ?
As you say he had a plan, lump it up to Beck. Everone knew that and we became easy to beat. His only other plan was to keep buying new players as York are finding out to their cost.
We became totally uncompetitive under Gray, should of given Turnbull and Brown more time, when no one else of sufficient quality wanted our managers job


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:50 am 
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banktopp wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
50 years wrote:
We will just have to have different views. For me I was disappointed with the long ball week after week and believe I am seeing the team trying to play football (we were getting dicked before TW as well :) ). May not be the right players or formations but think they will get there in the end (of course I may be wrong and have been before). Just think now is the time for us to stand with the team as if the fans get on the players and managers backs they will get nervous at making mistakes and are already low on confidence.

Just my view of course.
I'm genuinely surprised you think our error-strewn, directionless, gutless displays are better to watch than us beating Salford earlier in the season. They're really not.

And to call Gray a long ball manager is incorrect. He was pragmatic yes, but we played some more passing-based football too.


I've never understand why the long ball game is reviled, and passing the ball is revered. There's no right way to play the game. So long as we have a plan and get results. Under Gray we did that, under Wright we look clueless.

Not that I'm hankering for a return of Martin Gray of course. But we need some coherence to our play, which Wright isn't giving us.


What results did we get from Gray in his last 10 matches ?
As you say he had a plan, lump it up to Beck. Everone knew that and we became easy to beat. His only other plan was to keep buying new players as York are finding out to their cost.
We became totally uncompetitive under Gray, should of given Turnbull and Brown more time, when no one else of sufficient quality wanted our managers job


As I said, I'm not hankering for a return for Gray. But I don't get the impression Wright has any idea what his philosophy is or what he wants to get out of the team.

It's easier to say with hindsight, but I agree with you about Turnbull and Brown.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:18 pm 
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Gray’s lumping tactics only became a thing when we ran out of money, and ideas, in the Conference North this time last year. Once the playing field was level in terms of budget and squad, we had no answer.

Before that, we generally played great football, albeit direct, with very technically proficient players for the level we were at.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:41 pm 
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banktopp wrote:
We became totally uncompetitive under Gray, should of given Turnbull and Brown more time, when no one else of sufficient quality wanted our managers job


Disagree, Turnbull and Brown are not managers. They would never have been able to sign Styche or the new goal keeper or the other players that Wright has sorted.

Furthermore Turnbull and Brown (both part time don't forget) need to concentrate as much as they can on their playing/training and fitness.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:22 pm 
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Darlogramps wrote:
50 years wrote:
We will just have to have different views. For me I was disappointed with the long ball week after week and believe I am seeing the team trying to play football (we were getting dicked before TW as well :) ). May not be the right players or formations but think they will get there in the end (of course I may be wrong and have been before). Just think now is the time for us to stand with the team as if the fans get on the players and managers backs they will get nervous at making mistakes and are already low on confidence.

Just my view of course.
I'm genuinely surprised you think our error-strewn, directionless, gutless displays are better to watch than us beating Salford earlier in the season. They're really not.

And to call Gray a long ball manager is incorrect. He was pragmatic yes, but we played some more passing-based football too.

I've never understand why the long ball game is reviled, and passing the ball is revered. There's no right way to play the game. So long as we have a plan and get results. Under Gray we did that, under Wright we look clueless.

Not that I'm hankering for a return of Martin Gray of course. But we need some coherence to our play, which Wright isn't giving us.
It's like the obsession with the David Hodgson knock the ball across the back line until you lose possession football versus Dave Penney's match winning style. Mind boggling.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:32 pm 
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Spyman wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
50 years wrote:
We will just have to have different views. For me I was disappointed with the long ball week after week and believe I am seeing the team trying to play football (we were getting dicked before TW as well :) ). May not be the right players or formations but think they will get there in the end (of course I may be wrong and have been before). Just think now is the time for us to stand with the team as if the fans get on the players and managers backs they will get nervous at making mistakes and are already low on confidence.

Just my view of course.
I'm genuinely surprised you think our error-strewn, directionless, gutless displays are better to watch than us beating Salford earlier in the season. They're really not.

And to call Gray a long ball manager is incorrect. He was pragmatic yes, but we played some more passing-based football too.

I've never understand why the long ball game is reviled, and passing the ball is revered. There's no right way to play the game. So long as we have a plan and get results. Under Gray we did that, under Wright we look clueless.

Not that I'm hankering for a return of Martin Gray of course. But we need some coherence to our play, which Wright isn't giving us.
It's like the obsession with the David Hodgson knock the ball across the back line until you lose possession football versus Dave Penney's match winning style. Mind boggling.

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I don't remember winning many leagues or cups under either Penney or Hodgson, but I do know which style was easier on the eye.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:47 pm 
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This is what I don't understand (and no one answers).

Why is passing it around viewed as "easier on the eye"? The only thing to me that's easy on the eye is the ball ending up in the opposition net. A well worked long ball move can be equally as technically accomplished as a neat passing move.

You don't get extra points for passing more. Interestingly people at the game say we adopted a more pragmatic approach (I was working so couldn't make it).

A tad more pragmatism earns its rewards. I don't get why playing long ball gets demonised in the way it does. And amazingly, few people were complaining about Gray's more pragmatic approach when we were winning titles.

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Yeah OK I get your point. Should have said easier on MY eye..
Would much prefer the ball on the ground, Clough style. As opposed to the Wimbledon style of the 80's.
Just my opinion.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:56 pm 
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I've always preferred function to form in football. We played litre bits of brilliant football under Gray - remember cartman's goal v tamworth last year - but we're effective because we were so relentless in getting the ball forward.

The play off win v bamber bridge qas achieved from the air, and I had no problem with that at all.

The only time I see an argument for ditching the long ball is when it isn't working. At our level though, if you have some big bugger who annoys defenders and a nippy grafter to sweep up the bits, it tends to work.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:59 pm 
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My opinion wrote:
Yeah OK I get your point. Should have said easier on MY eye..
Would much prefer the ball on the ground, Clough style. As opposed to the Wimbledon style of the 80's.
Just my opinion.
I know I sound like an annoying child, but why do you prefer it on the ground?

A misplaced pass is just as ugly as an aimless hoof. I just think it's a social construction that a passing style is good and long ball is ugly.

In reality, it doesn't matter either way, so long as the ball winds up in the opposition's net.

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To me it is a matter of perspective
Best way I can describe it is like the difference between a landscape painting and a modern art scribble. I myself would prefer the landscape.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:14 pm 
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Darlogramps wrote:
My opinion wrote:
Yeah OK I get your point. Should have said easier on MY eye..
Would much prefer the ball on the ground, Clough style. As opposed to the Wimbledon style of the 80's.
Just my opinion.
I know I sound like an annoying child, but why do you prefer it on the ground?

A misplaced pass is just as ugly as an aimless hoof. I just think it's a social construction that a passing style is good and long ball is ugly.

In reality, it doesn't matter either way, so long as the ball winds up in the opposition's net.
You are correct, it ending up in the net is what it's all about.

However if we aren't going to score either way I'd rather watch us string 3 passes together along the half-way line that punt it up to no one.

It's about my wasted Saturdays really, and if we aren't going to score then I'd rather see a little bit of ineffective football rather than ineffective hoof ball.



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:21 pm 
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shawry wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
My opinion wrote:
Yeah OK I get your point. Should have said easier on MY eye..
Would much prefer the ball on the ground, Clough style. As opposed to the Wimbledon style of the 80's.
Just my opinion.
I know I sound like an annoying child, but why do you prefer it on the ground?

A misplaced pass is just as ugly as an aimless hoof. I just think it's a social construction that a passing style is good and long ball is ugly.

In reality, it doesn't matter either way, so long as the ball winds up in the opposition's net.
You are correct, it ending up in the net is what it's all about.

However if we aren't going to score either way I'd rather watch us string 3 passes together along the half-way line that punt it up to no one.

It's about my wasted Saturdays really, and if we aren't going to score then I'd rather see a little bit of ineffective football rather than ineffective hoof ball.



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But why do you view one as hoofball and one as football? You're saying one style is worse than the other, but no one explains why they think that. The answer always seems to be "It just is" which is a cop out.


I've nothing wrong with people having a preference. Just find it interesting that no one really explains why that is. To me, it's a social construct that's just taken hold over decades.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:31 pm 
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My opinion is that hoofball is often a ball that goes aimlessly for a long distance down the pitch without expectation of it getting to any of our players.. Passing football is where an attempt is made to pass the ball long or short to a place where it is expected that one of our players would get control of it first.
As I said, it's just my opinion.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:03 pm 
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Darlogramps wrote:
shawry wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
My opinion wrote:
Yeah OK I get your point. Should have said easier on MY eye..
Would much prefer the ball on the ground, Clough style. As opposed to the Wimbledon style of the 80's.
Just my opinion.
I know I sound like an annoying child, but why do you prefer it on the ground?

A misplaced pass is just as ugly as an aimless hoof. I just think it's a social construction that a passing style is good and long ball is ugly.

In reality, it doesn't matter either way, so long as the ball winds up in the opposition's net.
You are correct, it ending up in the net is what it's all about.

However if we aren't going to score either way I'd rather watch us string 3 passes together along the half-way line that punt it up to no one.

It's about my wasted Saturdays really, and if we aren't going to score then I'd rather see a little bit of ineffective football rather than ineffective hoof ball.



Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk
But why do you view one as hoofball and one as football? You're saying one style is worse than the other, but no one explains why they think that. The answer always seems to be "It just is" which is a cop out.


I've nothing wrong with people having a preference. Just find it interesting that no one really explains why that is. To me, it's a social construct that's just taken hold over decades.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
No, I haven't said ones better than the other just that I prefer watching one over the other.

It's a preference, probably because my 3 pointless passes in the centre circle involve a couple of successful passes and sometimes more players, whereas an ineffective punt either involves it bouncing off our player or missing them completely.

It's hard to explain to be fair, but if we are going to be ineffective I'd rather we keep the ball as long as possible to limit the amount of time the opposition have it.

That said, if we play a direct style and it's mostly effective I'm happy watching that.

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