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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:06 pm 
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The FA have decided to have a re-structure of the Non League pyramid system this summer with all changes to be effective as of the season 18-19.

This will see two new leagues created, one at Step 3 and one at Step 4, taking the number of Step 3 leagues from 3 to 4 and the number of Step 4 leagues from 6 to 7.

This will net additional clubs at each level, with Step 3 leagues reducing down from 24 clubs to run with 22 in each 4 divisions and Step 4 leagues reducing down from 22 to run with 20 in each of the 7 divisions.

The Southern League will run the new division at Step 3 and the Ryman League will run the new division at Step 4.

Also, a couple of weeks ago the EvoStik clubs at Step 4 in Division 1 North and South voted and agreed to completely overhaul the geographical split and will now split East/West

In summary:
Step 1 -
National League : No changes

Step 2 -
National League North/South : No changes

Step 3 -
New Central League created
4 divisions will run with 22 clubs instead of 24.
EvoStik NPL
Southern Central League
EvoStik Southern Premier (covers South West)
Ryman Premier (covers South East)

Only 1 team to be relegated from the three Step 3 leagues this season

Step 4 -
New division formed in the South
7 divisions will run with 20 clubs instead of 22.
Evostik Div 1 East
Evostik Div 1 West
Southern League Div 1 Central
Southern League Div 1 South & West
Ryman Div 1 North
Ryman Div 1 South
*New Division*

At Step 4 this season, 19 clubs will be promoted. The 12 clubs finishing in 1st and 2nd of each league plus 6 clubs determined by play off matches from each league (those finishing 3rd-6th) plus 1 club (highest ranked by PPG) who actually loses in the playoff final.
1 club will be relegated from each of the 6 divisions.

Step 5 -
Promotion is now enforced from every Step 5 league in the country, this includes our local Northern League. 26 clubs will be promoted, those finishing top in each of the fourteen leagues plus an additional 12 clubs determined by those with the best PPG, hence it is likely that the Northern League will promote two clubs this season (Morpeth and Marske).

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:55 pm 
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With a bit of luck the Chokers will end up involved in those changes.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:50 pm 
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Wonder how the Northern league will react to this news?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:40 pm 
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So, they’re adding a third southern division? How’s that going to help the north south feeds into the national leagues???


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:05 am 
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dickdarlington wrote:
So, they’re adding a third southern division? How’s that going to help the north south feeds into the national leagues???


The problem is that there are a lot more Southern teams in the football pyramid than Northern teams. This can be seen clearly by the fact that Brackley are in our division. The new structure will make it harder for Northern sides to get into the national leagues.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:26 am 
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"plus 1 club (highest ranked by PPG) who actually loses in the playoff final"

Well that's wide open to corruption. One team will end up playing in a final guaranteed to get promoted win or lose.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:52 am 
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dickdarlington wrote:
So, they’re adding a third southern division? How’s that going to help the north south feeds into the national leagues???


No, they're adding a midlands (central) league at step 3. The wording is mis-leading as its the Southern Premier League who'll be running the league but it'll cover those clubs that tend to be part of the NPL when they clearly aren't Northern (Hednesford, Halesowen etc) along with other clubs who keep flip-flopping between NPL and SPL. Its more:

EvoStik NPL
Midlands League (run by the Southern Premier League)
EvoStik Southern Premier (covers South West)
Ryman Premier (covers South East)

The below is a reasonable projection of how it would look at Step 3.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1inu6blXlaCuykULnRxHPFLMcCnAPU1NtmlM27JJ9nFE/edit#gid=0


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:38 am 
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Nicely explained by the projection. Shame to see Pools predicted to avoid relegation, but then York, Spenny and Blyth also appear not to have made promotion so plenty of local derbies.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:53 am 
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Darlo_Pete wrote:
Wonder how the Northern league will react to this news?
Not too well

Morpeth have already spoke out against enforced promotion

http://www.morpethtownfc.com/beattie-expresses-promotion-concerns/

Not sure what Marske think about it.

Not even sure if these grounds have the grading to go up and if they dont, will the FA let them go up and give them a years grace to get things sorted.

Personally if Morpeth and Marske dont want to come up, let them stay, kick them out the Vase next year and take 2 NL clubs that are ambitious, Bishop being 1 and possibly Shildon

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:06 pm 
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murtonquaker wrote:
Personally if Morpeth and Marske dont want to come up, let them stay, kick them out the Vase next year and take 2 NL clubs that are ambitious, Bishop being 1 and possibly Shildon



Good idea.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:18 pm 
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theoriginalfatcat wrote:
murtonquaker wrote:
Personally if Morpeth and Marske dont want to come up, let them stay, kick them out the Vase next year and take 2 NL clubs that are ambitious, Bishop being 1 and possibly Shildon



Good idea.


I know Bishop want to get promoted, but has Shildon said the same thing? If the NL are losing two teams, then in theory two teams will get relegated to the NL, but where will they come from? I'd imagine the geographical area of the NL will have to be increased in order to accommodate these two sides?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:06 pm 
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dickdarlington wrote:
So, they’re adding a third southern division? How’s that going to help the north south feeds into the national leagues???



Is designed to help the Isthmian League reduce its already small footprint even further.

The main driving force at the FA is connected to the Isthmian League

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:25 pm 
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Darlo_Pete wrote:
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
murtonquaker wrote:
Personally if Morpeth and Marske dont want to come up, let them stay, kick them out the Vase next year and take 2 NL clubs that are ambitious, Bishop being 1 and possibly Shildon



Good idea.


I know Bishop want to get promoted, but has Shildon said the same thing? If the NL are losing two teams, then in theory two teams will get relegated to the NL, but where will they come from? I'd imagine the geographical area of the NL will have to be increased in order to accommodate these two sides?



If you look at the predictions for the new season, no one is relegated to the NL as all leagues have to operate with 20 teams. So the NL loose 2 and gain 0.

Also the original post states this fact


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:03 pm 
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spen666 wrote:
dickdarlington wrote:
So, they’re adding a third southern division? How’s that going to help the north south feeds into the national leagues???



Is designed to help the Isthmian League reduce its already small footprint even further.

The main driving force at the FA is connected to the Isthmian League


I'd argue the Isthmian League ends up about the same, they lose the more Westerly teams like Staines and Hendon to be replaced with clubs on the East/North like Bishop Stortford. The SPL ends up being a South and South West league (the likes of Tiverton and Weymouth having to travel to Bishops Stortford currently is a joke given they must pass half the Isthmian clubs as they go round the M25).

The NPL rids itself of around 10 of its most Southerly clubs which does help especially for the North-Eastern clubs. In theory the likes of South Shields, who should be in the NPL next year, wont have to travel further South than Derby/Nottingham so should easily knock 45mins off their longest journeys. Thats similar to what the most Westerly clubs in SPL have to live with.

It doesn't make up for the years of NPL and feeder leagues below being stretched further South. There's no real way to address the fact there are too many London clubs at this level but it should stop the South pushing four clubs to Step Two when the North only adds two clubs every year.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:17 pm 
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HampshireQuaker wrote:
"plus 1 club (highest ranked by PPG) who actually loses in the playoff final"

Well that's wide open to corruption. One team will end up playing in a final guaranteed to get promoted win or lose.


i heard it was the 3rd placed team with the best PPG ratio BEFORE play-offs kick in meaning the play-off place in that league goes down to 7th.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:20 pm 
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Darlo_Manc wrote:
spen666 wrote:
dickdarlington wrote:
So, they’re adding a third southern division? How’s that going to help the north south feeds into the national leagues???



Is designed to help the Isthmian League reduce its already small footprint even further.

The main driving force at the FA is connected to the Isthmian League


I'd argue the Isthmian League ends up about the same, they lose the more Westerly teams like Staines and Hendon to be replaced with clubs on the East/North like Bishop Stortford. ....



The Isthmian league lose also the more Northernly team in their area. They go back to being effectively an Essex, London and neighbouring areas.

There is lots about this on www.nonleaguematters.com


Irrespective of that , the restructuring does nothing to resolve the current bias towards the south and the excessive distances teams in NPL and SPL have to travel

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:30 pm 
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spen666 wrote:
Darlo_Manc wrote:
spen666 wrote:
dickdarlington wrote:
So, they’re adding a third southern division? How’s that going to help the north south feeds into the national leagues???



Is designed to help the Isthmian League reduce its already small footprint even further.

The main driving force at the FA is connected to the Isthmian League


I'd argue the Isthmian League ends up about the same, they lose the more Westerly teams like Staines and Hendon to be replaced with clubs on the East/North like Bishop Stortford. ....


The Isthmian league lose also the more Northernly team in their area. They go back to being effectively an Essex, London and neighbouring areas.

There is lots about this on http://www.nonleaguematters.com


Irrespective of that , the restructuring does nothing to resolve the current bias towards the south and the excessive distances teams in NPL and SPL have to travel


Yeah Im familiar with non-league matters.

The issue isn't the boundaries though it's the number of clubs in the Isthmian region at Step 3. The only way to fix that would be to relegate around 8 teams from the IPL then promote more teams from Step 4 in the SPL and NPL regions. But its the FA so they're never going to take such a drastic and wildly unpopular step.

The FA is hoping that now you've got two leagues in the North and two in the South at step four that things will even out over the next decade but Im skeptical.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:09 pm 
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Darlo_Pete wrote:
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
murtonquaker wrote:
Personally if Morpeth and Marske dont want to come up, let them stay, kick them out the Vase next year and take 2 NL clubs that are ambitious, Bishop being 1 and possibly Shildon



Good idea.


I know Bishop want to get promoted, but has Shildon said the same thing? If the NL are losing two teams, then in theory two teams will get relegated to the NL, but where will they come from? I'd imagine the geographical area of the NL will have to be increased in order to accommodate these two sides?


Shildon recently installed a new stand before Xmas on the Brown St side of the ground. There Chairman has stated they are looking to progress in the future

[img]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180319/90b466ae3e0c5627b1395623e3cb9dc1.jpg[/img]

http://www.shildonafc.com/2017/07/shildon-afc-awarded-grant-to-build-new-stand/

[quote=Shildon AFC]Shildon AFC awarded £57,027 to build new stand

The Premier League through the Football Stadia Improvement Fund ( FSIF), the largest funder of non-league football in this country, recently announced a grant of £57,027 to Shildon AFC

The grant will enable the Club to build a new 200 seated stand, providing much needed accommodation to enhance spectator experience.

The project will see the building of a purpose built stand to replace the upper seated section of the existing stand. The project which is being undertaken by Vest Construction and Stadium  Solutions is due to commence on September 17 with completion due before Christmas.

Funded with £5.2m each year from the Premier League, the FSIF is the country’s largest provider of grants towards projects that help improve the comfort and safety of lower league football grounds in both the professional and amateur game. These improvements range from new football stands and turnstiles to floodlighting and improved provision for disabled supporters.

David Dent, Chairman of Shildon AFC said ” thanks to the support of the Premier League through the FSIF, we can now offer our supporters and the wider community a much improved experience when they come to the game. Shildon AFC prides itself on being a true community focused football club and the improved facilities will not only benefit supporters watching our first team but also all of those who attend Academy games and our Development Centre days. This is an important milestone for the Club and hopefully will be the catalyst for further improvements to the ground as we seek to go as far as we can up the pyramid ”[/quote]

I dont if Shildon want it yet, but they are certainly planning for it

Personally I would like to see ambitious teams come up, even if it means taking 2 who dont finish in, say, the top 5.

Only other teams I can think of in the NL who have ambition after them is Stockton Town and possibly Consett

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:27 pm 
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dickdarlington wrote:
So, they’re adding a third southern division? How’s that going to help the north south feeds into the national leagues???

A lot of Midlands teams will no longer be in the North section, because they will be deemed Central. Most Northern League teams may be happier with games on the East side of the Pennines, maybe travelling only as far as South Yorks, so not as bad as deep down into the Midlands


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:45 pm 
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Neil Johnson wrote:
dickdarlington wrote:
So, they’re adding a third southern division? How’s that going to help the north south feeds into the national leagues???

A lot of Midlands teams will no longer be in the North section, because they will be deemed Central. Most Northern League teams may be happier with games on the East side of the Pennines, maybe travelling only as far as South Yorks, so not as bad as deep down into the Midlands



Neil, That is what sensible people would do, but not what the FA are planning.

Step 4 NPL Div 1 East will run from the scottish border or as far north as there are clubs - probably Morpeth next season down as far as Peterborough.

Trips of circa 200 miles each way for a step 4 club is crazy

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:57 pm 
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Not really spen, they will travel further for regular FA Vase matches!

Also, if the travelling is costing too much, then they need to cut their extravagent wage budgets.

If they can't compete, they get relegated - that's how it is for everyone else in the pyramid.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:26 pm 
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Will the FA allow sides not in the top 2 of the NL to get promoted instead? I thought they said it had to be the top 2?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:50 pm 
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Quakerz wrote:
Not really spen, they will travel further for regular FA Vase matches!

Also, if the travelling is costing too much, then they need to cut their extravagent wage budgets.

If they can't compete, they get relegated - that's how it is for everyone else in the pyramid.



Who mentioned cost?

Players having to make 400 mile round trips for midweek games is crazy when they all have jobs to go to.
Getting time off work for such trips is not easy . Getting home at 2 o'clock in morning means many won't get much sleep before work.

It's crazy at step 4 to force players out of game because they can't travel then lengths the FA want them to



As for FA Vase games, a team getting to Semi Finals of Case are unlikely to have more than 1 long away trip and this would be on a weekend not a midweek, so it's wholly irrelevant to regular league games away such distances.




Now what's the reference to money?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:18 pm 
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spen666 wrote:
Neil Johnson wrote:
dickdarlington wrote:
So, they’re adding a third southern division? How’s that going to help the north south feeds into the national leagues???

A lot of Midlands teams will no longer be in the North section, because they will be deemed Central. Most Northern League teams may be happier with games on the East side of the Pennines, maybe travelling only as far as South Yorks, so not as bad as deep down into the Midlands



Neil, That is what sensible people would do, but not what the FA are planning.

Step 4 NPL Div 1 East will run from the scottish border or as far north as there are clubs - probably Morpeth next season down as far as Peterborough.

Trips of circa 200 miles each way for a step 4 club is crazy


If teams from the North-East participating in the NL refuse promotion for the best part of 30 years then its makes logical sense that youre going to end up with a Southern heavy setup in the NPL and NPL Division 1.

So whilst the FA haven't helped things with how things were setup originally, as stated above, its not all on them.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:26 pm 
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Darlo_Manc wrote:
dickdarlington wrote:
So, they’re adding a third southern division? How’s that going to help the north south feeds into the national leagues???


No, they're adding a midlands (central) league at step 3. The wording is mis-leading as its the Southern Premier League who'll be running the league but it'll cover those clubs that tend to be part of the NPL when they clearly aren't Northern (Hednesford, Halesowen etc) along with other clubs who keep flip-flopping between NPL and SPL. Its more:

EvoStik NPL
Midlands League (run by the Southern Premier League)
EvoStik Southern Premier (covers South West)
Ryman Premier (covers South East)

The below is a reasonable projection of how it would look at Step 3.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1inu6blXlaCuykULnRxHPFLMcCnAPU1NtmlM27JJ9nFE/edit#gid=0



So sourthern based fans lose the trip to Brackley but gain Solihull (if they go down) and King's Lynn (if they go up). Gloucester will stay in the south as they were promised they would not have to move back north for three years unless they wanted to. It looks as though there will be less travelling next season with three of the four teams to be relegated from the National League likely to be 'northern'. However depending on final placings it's not inconceivable that Hereford will be in NLN next season.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:32 pm 
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spen666 wrote:
Quakerz wrote:
Not really spen, they will travel further for regular FA Vase matches!

Also, if the travelling is costing too much, then they need to cut their extravagent wage budgets.

If they can't compete, they get relegated - that's how it is for everyone else in the pyramid.



Who mentioned cost?

Players having to make 400 mile round trips for midweek games is crazy when they all have jobs to go to.
Getting time off work for such trips is not easy . Getting home at 2 o'clock in morning means many won't get much sleep before work.

It's crazy at step 4 to force players out of game because they can't travel then lengths the FA want them to



As for FA Vase games, a team getting to Semi Finals of Case are unlikely to have more than 1 long away trip and this would be on a weekend not a midweek, so it's wholly irrelevant to regular league games away such distances.




Now what's the reference to money?
Ask the Northern League clubs' chairmen who regularly cite it as a reason.

Just about every Northern League club has cited travelling costs as a reason not to go up. Yes you didn't bring it up explicitly, but as part of the broader discussion it's undoubtedly a factor.

Of course, if more Northern League clubs had sought promotion over the past decade, and not thrown money at their squads to have a big back-slapping day out at Wembley each year, the situation wouldn't be as bad as more clubs would be further up the pyramid, thus reducing travel costs.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:26 am 
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I think it seems quite logical and the clubs in EvoStik seem pretty happy with the change to an East / West split versus North / South.

It's too basic to just look at it in terms of distance, if the big concern is travel time then it makes sense for the Isthmian league to be geographically smaller due to concentration of population (and the length of time it takes to travel an equivalent distance in the north).

I'd hazard that if you overlaid population size over the suggested structure then doubt there would be too much between the leagues. That probably doesn't suite the conspiracy theorists though.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:46 am 
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i can see Northern League clubs who are forcibly promoted just going through the motions in the higher division, not having any ambition and not actually caring if they get relegated back to where they came from, and i for one couldnt blame them


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:19 am 
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bertbanger wrote:
i can see Northern League clubs who are forcibly promoted just going through the motions in the higher division, not having any ambition and not actually caring if they get relegated back to where they came from, and i for one couldnt blame them


Getting relegated can be difficult from the gluestick league. The teams at the bottom can be pretty poor compared to most the decent NL teams (just my opinion) and teams who are basically doing a slow drop with amateur players (New Mills for example were relegated a few years ago with 3pts).

Also you have to take into account that every year you see a number of reprieves as teams drop out of the pyramid etc. Goole survived last year and for example this year you'll have at least one team saved due to the Ossett merger.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:31 am 
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bertbanger wrote:
i can see Northern League clubs who are forcibly promoted just going through the motions in the higher division, not having any ambition and not actually caring if they get relegated back to where they came from, and i for one couldnt blame them

If that happens then the “Home for Tea” league needs to be removed from the pyramid system unless the FA allow any team,regardless of finishing position,who are willing to be promoted to replace the champions.
And the club that backheels promotion banned from the vase for the next season.


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