Management

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Management Team

Stick with TW & AW & see it come good.
43
68%
Get rid & act fast to save the season.
20
32%
 
Total votes: 63

LoidLucan
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Re: Management

Post by LoidLucan » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:16 pm

The wisdom of a bunch of players travelling vast distances for training and home matches is open to question to start with for a whole range of reasons but it certainly should not mean that TW is untouchable no matter how low we plunge on the pitch and how inept he should prove to be. If a manager proves incapable of putting together a side that can win matches, it will only ever end one way, whatever the circumstances surrounding the players at the club or why they signed. With a quarter of the season gone, TW's winning ratio of 18% and his longer term stats don't bode well.
I also think some of the doubts about TW raised on here have been legitimate and reasonable rather than panicky and rabid.

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loan_star
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Re: Management

Post by loan_star » Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:34 pm

Darlogramps wrote: Genuine question - what is it that makes you think he can turn it around? And what would it take for you to think he's got to go?

And do we need to be "swimming in funds"?.
First question, he did it last season and we have shown that we have a very capable side, it’s up to Wright to get them firing again. Come end of November and we are bottom 3 then the board need to start earning their corn in that respect.
And yes we do need to be swimming in funds, we aren’t in a position to chuck money away in the hope that another clubs reject can sort us out, or that an up and coming manager would be within our price range again.
Plus, why would White stay? If it’s the management that’s culpable for the bad run of form then he’s just as culpable as Wright.

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loan_star
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Re: Management

Post by loan_star » Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:39 pm

LoidLucan wrote: I also think some of the doubts about TW raised on here have been legitimate and reasonable rather than panicky and rabid.
I specifically mentioned the Facebook page where some of comments are OTT.
It’s more of a proper debate on here compared to that place.

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Re: Management

Post by Darlogramps » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:27 pm

loan_star wrote:
First question, he did it last season and we have shown that we have a very capable side, it’s up to Wright to get them firing again.
But this is different to last season. He's failing with his own players, who he himself said were an improvement on last season. We should be expecting more than a relegation battle. Scrambling out of the relegation zone into mid-table is not good enough (some on here would claim it to be a success, but it wouldn't be). A repeat of last year would be a big failure, given the comments from TW and DJ over the summer.
loan_star wrote: And yes we do need to be swimming in funds, we aren’t in a position to chuck money away in the hope that another clubs reject can sort us out, or that an up and coming manager would be within our price range again.
You haven't explained why that would require us to be swimming in money. A mutual agreement with TW would hardly break the bank. Anyone know his contract length? Can't imagine it's the five years we'd given Gray.

And we'd only pay out compensation for a new boss if we approached another club. Given it's unlikely we'd take a manager from above us, would we need to go wild with compensation for a lower club's boss? Again I don't see how, if done sensibly, it would break the bank. So in saying we need to be "swimming" in money, you're exaggerating in my opinion.

It's also an assumption to say there'd be squad and coaching staff changes too. They could happen, but not necessarily. Certainly squad-wise I don't see us changing it up like last year.

And the financial impact of keeping TW if he continues to fail could be way more serious and long-lasting. We can't afford to see a long-term dip in attendances because the team is playing bad football and losing.

So there are massive flaws in the "we can't afford to sack TW" argument. I think we can.
loan_star wrote: Plus, why would White stay? If it’s the management that’s culpable for the bad run of form then he’s just as culpable as Wright.
Plenty of examples of coaches and assistants staying on. White might fancy the job himself. The idea he would definitely go after a Wright sacking is an assumption. So saying we'd definitely have to pay him off is not necessarily correct.
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Re: Management

Post by Darlo_Pete » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:18 am

Stick with TW & AW, I have faith that they can turn things round and we can move to calmer waters.

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dfc4me
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Re: Management

Post by dfc4me » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:41 am

I would give TW a little more time though not convinced anything change. Hopefully DJ has already started sounding out possible replacements so that if/when TW has to be removed we will have someone lined up to take over rather than taking weeks advertising and interviewing.

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Re: Management

Post by banktopp » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:56 am

dfc4me wrote:I would give TW a little more time though not convinced anything change. Hopefully DJ has already started sounding out possible replacements so that if/when TW has to be removed we will have someone lined up to take over rather than taking weeks advertising and interviewing.
I would hope DJ is not going behind Wright's back and sounding out replacements because that can never be kept secret.

I would also hope DJ is giving Tommy his full support whilst at the same time making clear that Tommy has until the new year to turn around the clubs form, after which other options will have to be discussed.

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Re: Management

Post by AndyPark » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:10 am

dfc4me wrote:I would give TW a little more time though not convinced anything change. Hopefully DJ has already started sounding out possible replacements so that if/when TW has to be removed we will have someone lined up to take over rather than taking weeks advertising and interviewing.
I would be very disappointed in DJ if he was going behind our managers back, why would he need to?

I'd be fully expecting him to be backing TW.
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Emdubya
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Re: Management

Post by Emdubya » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:23 am

banktopp wrote:
dfc4me wrote:I would give TW a little more time though not convinced anything change. Hopefully DJ has already started sounding out possible replacements so that if/when TW has to be removed we will have someone lined up to take over rather than taking weeks advertising and interviewing.
I would hope DJ is not going behind Wright's back and sounding out replacements because that can never be kept secret.

I would also hope DJ is giving Tommy his full support whilst at the same time making clear that Tommy has until the new year to turn around the clubs form, after which other options will have to be discussed.
The new year?.Sorry,but unless we see a reasonable return of points this month ,4 or 5 in not unreasonable,then he needs to go.After all the big talk of the summer this season is going down the pan quickly.Whether he has overestimated the quality of his signings or “lost the changing room” I don’t know but what we have now is unacceptable.

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Re: Management

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:30 am

Emdubya wrote: The new year?.Sorry,but unless we see a reasonable return of points this month ,4 or 5 in not unreasonable,then he needs to go.
4 or 5 points from the 4 matches this month is not good enough.
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Emdubya
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Re: Management

Post by Emdubya » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:15 am

Ghost_Of_1883 wrote:
Emdubya wrote: The new year?.Sorry,but unless we see a reasonable return of points this month ,4 or 5 in not unreasonable,then he needs to go.
4 or 5 points from the 4 matches this month is not good enough.
Quite right.Thought we only had three games.My bad.

LoidLucan
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Re: Management

Post by LoidLucan » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:24 am

I would have thought the pressure will go up another couple of notches should we lose to FCUM. They are absolutely atrocious, havent won at home and have a goal difference of -15. If we dont see them off it really would be very difficult to see how this plunge towards the bottom will be halted. Meanwhile we yet again sit with our noses pressed against the window while FA Cup fever picks up and vital cash comes rolling in for many clubs. There's no getting away from it, in terms of the budget we have and TW's stated aims and brave words this has been a pretty disastrous first quarter of the season.

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Management

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:35 am

When things got really bad last season the team and management turned it round - however in the final run in they ran out of gas and that's where our poor run started.

I know you shouldn't compare seasons like for like but I hope we're not in a position where our players can only perform when the pressure is well and truly on - as in being threatened by relegation.

Is there a problem with motivation here?
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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loan_star
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Re: Management

Post by loan_star » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:01 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
loan_star wrote:
First question, he did it last season and we have shown that we have a very capable side, it’s up to Wright to get them firing again.
But this is different to last season. He's failing with his own players, who he himself said were an improvement on last season. We should be expecting more than a relegation battle. Scrambling out of the relegation zone into mid-table is not good enough (some on here would claim it to be a success, but it wouldn't be). A repeat of last year would be a big failure, given the comments from TW and DJ over the summer.
loan_star wrote: And yes we do need to be swimming in funds, we aren’t in a position to chuck money away in the hope that another clubs reject can sort us out, or that an up and coming manager would be within our price range again.
You haven't explained why that would require us to be swimming in money. A mutual agreement with TW would hardly break the bank. Anyone know his contract length? Can't imagine it's the five years we'd given Gray.

And we'd only pay out compensation for a new boss if we approached another club. Given it's unlikely we'd take a manager from above us, would we need to go wild with compensation for a lower club's boss? Again I don't see how, if done sensibly, it would break the bank. So in saying we need to be "swimming" in money, you're exaggerating in my opinion.

It's also an assumption to say there'd be squad and coaching staff changes too. They could happen, but not necessarily. Certainly squad-wise I don't see us changing it up like last year.

And the financial impact of keeping TW if he continues to fail could be way more serious and long-lasting. We can't afford to see a long-term dip in attendances because the team is playing bad football and losing.

So there are massive flaws in the "we can't afford to sack TW" argument. I think we can.
loan_star wrote: Plus, why would White stay? If it’s the management that’s culpable for the bad run of form then he’s just as culpable as Wright.
Plenty of examples of coaches and assistants staying on. White might fancy the job himself. The idea he would definitely go after a Wright sacking is an assumption. So saying we'd definitely have to pay him off is not necessarily correct.
You say I am making assumptions over certain points but isn't that exactly what you are doing too?
You assume that we can come to a mutual agreement with Wright. You assume that White may want the job or stay as a coach even though hes just as responsible as Wright for how things are on the pitch.
You also assume it won't cost us that much to get a new manager in. Also its a hope that things would improve under a new man, just as I hope Wright turns it round.

With regard to last season, yes the players are different but he has shown that he can turn a team round, even when the players aren't all his. However if by the end of next month we are bottom 3 then I think he needs to be assessing his own situation rather than the club having to sack him.

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Re: Management

Post by Darlogramps » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:57 pm

loan_star wrote:
You say I am making assumptions over certain points but isn't that exactly what you are doing too?
You assume that we can come to a mutual agreement with Wright. You assume that White may want the job or stay as a coach even though hes just as responsible as Wright for how things are on the pitch.
You also assume it won't cost us that much to get a new manager in. Also its a hope that things would improve under a new man, just as I hope Wright turns it round.

With regard to last season, yes the players are different but he has shown that he can turn a team round, even when the players aren't all his. However if by the end of next month we are bottom 3 then I think he needs to be assessing his own situation rather than the club having to sack him.
You're confusing "assumptions" with "stated possibilities." I haven't assumed anything will happen.

I've stated it was a possibility that White would stay on (which it is) and that it was a probability we wouldn't make massive changes to the squad (again, not implausible). And it may also be the case that we don't break the bank in appointing a new manager. All scenarios which are perfectly plausible. I'm not saying they will happen, but it is definitely the case that some or all of these could potentially happen.

Stating that something could potentially happen is not the same as assuming it will.

The difference here is you stated definitively that we couldn't afford to sack Wright. That was quite clearly your point. What I've done is present a number of scenarios in which it is entirely possible for us to get rid of Wright without causing ourselves financial ruin.

Therefore the argument "We can't afford to sack Wright" doesn't work. It's an invalid counter argument as it's too simplistic.

It also doesn't say much for your belief in Wright that your case for him staying is, by your own admission, based on hope and circumstance, than any faith in his ability.
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loan_star
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Re: Management

Post by loan_star » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:39 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
loan_star wrote:
You say I am making assumptions over certain points but isn't that exactly what you are doing too?
You assume that we can come to a mutual agreement with Wright. You assume that White may want the job or stay as a coach even though hes just as responsible as Wright for how things are on the pitch.
You also assume it won't cost us that much to get a new manager in. Also its a hope that things would improve under a new man, just as I hope Wright turns it round.

With regard to last season, yes the players are different but he has shown that he can turn a team round, even when the players aren't all his. However if by the end of next month we are bottom 3 then I think he needs to be assessing his own situation rather than the club having to sack him.
You're confusing "assumptions" with "stated possibilities." I haven't assumed anything will happen.

I've stated it was a possibility that White would stay on (which it is) and that it was a probability we wouldn't make massive changes to the squad (again, not implausible). And it may also be the case that we don't break the bank in appointing a new manager. All scenarios which are perfectly plausible. I'm not saying they will happen, but it is definitely the case that some or all of these could potentially happen.

Stating that something could potentially happen is not the same as assuming it will.

The difference here is you stated definitively that we couldn't afford to sack Wright. That was quite clearly your point. What I've done is present a number of scenarios in which it is entirely possible for us to get rid of Wright without causing ourselves financial ruin.

Therefore the argument "We can't afford to sack Wright" doesn't work. It's an invalid counter argument as it's too simplistic.

It also doesn't say much for your belief in Wright that your case for him staying is, by your own admission, based on hope and circumstance, than any faith in his ability.
Ah yeh I thought it would be something like that. you just twist things to suit your own argument every time.
"Assumptions and stated possibilities" :lol: :lol: :lol:
I've got to admit, thats a belter even by your standards of statement twisting. Well done. 10/10

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Re: Management

Post by Darlogramps » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:33 pm

Not quite sure why you're trying to deflect the discussion to being about me. It's a tactic you deploy repeatedly when you've got nothing left to say. I've kept it on topic and been polite.

Everyone can see your "We can't afford to sack Wright" argument has fallen apart, but your deflection tactics are as boring as they are repetitive.

Try defending your argument and keeping it on topic, otherwise it all descends into an embarrassing farce. And if you've nothing worthwhile on topic to add, probably best you stop posting.
Last edited by Darlogramps on Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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loan_star
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Re: Management

Post by loan_star » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:39 pm

Darlogramps wrote:Not quite sure why you're trying to deflect the discussion to being about me. It's a tactic you do repeatedly when you've got nothing left to say. I've kept it on topic and been polite.

I know your "We can't afford to sack Wright" argument has fallen apart, but your deflection tactics are as boring as they are repetitive.

Try defending your argument and keeping it on topic, otherwise it all descends into an embarrassing farce.
Because you twist things, you always do and yet you seem incapable of recognising this. It only ends up in an embarrassing farce when you do exactly that. Got to admit it made me laugh with your stated possibilities and assumptions. The best yet.

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Re: Management

Post by Darlogramps » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:52 pm

Ok, so you've got nothing further to add and are going to resort to the usual boring deflections and attacks on me. A sure sign you've lost the argument.

The reason you're going down this road is to save face, after the weaknesses in your own argument were exposed. You're the one who took this off-topic, not me. Attack the argument, not the man.

Sacking TW wouldn't lead to financial problems as you claimed. We could do it and I've explained why, so it's not a valid counter-argument.
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Re: Management

Post by real_darlo_85 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:32 pm

TW is running out of time there is no question and I'd say anything less than a win next week and it's curtains, win and he has bought himself another week or two - hoping it is the latter. :thumbup:

However, my question to those wanting to give him more time is this, would you be happy if the club kept Wright on longer but got relegated or changed manager and stayed up? All scenarios are hypothetical of course as we can't predict the future, but as things stand and appear to be going, which is the bigger picture?
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Re: Management

Post by lo36789 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:13 pm

real_darlo_85 wrote:TW is running out of time there is no question and I'd say anything less than a win next week and it's curtains, win and he has bought himself another week or two - hoping it is the latter. :thumbup:

However, my question to those wanting to give him more time is this, would you be happy if the club kept Wright on longer but got relegated or changed manager and stayed up? All scenarios are hypothetical of course as we can't predict the future, but as things stand and appear to be going, which is the bigger picture?
Or kept Wright and stayed up or changed manager and got relegated.

I think there is still 5 more games to gel and actually get some consistency in performances.

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Re: Management

Post by loan_star » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:23 am

Darlogramps wrote:Ok, so you've got nothing further to add and are going to resort to the usual boring deflections and attacks on me. A sure sign you've lost the argument.

The reason you're going down this road is to save face, after the weaknesses in your own argument were exposed. You're the one who took this off-topic, not me. Attack the argument, not the man.

Sacking TW wouldn't lead to financial problems as you claimed. We could do it and I've explained why, so it's not a valid counter-argument.
Why add anything else when you just twist it? I've stated my opinion and I'm happy with it. As for attacking people, you do it all the time as well, you just don't realise it.
I'll assume that this is the end of it, or should it be a stated possibility that this is the end of it? :roll:

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Re: Management

Post by Darlogramps » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:08 pm

Oh dear - you're embarrassing yourself now. You lost the argument and can't take it.

There's been no twisting of words nor have I attacked anyone personally. Just your typical cry bully tactics because your own ego can't take people proving you wrong.

We've established that we could afford to sack TW if we're sensible about approaching it, so that's no longer a valid argument for keeping him.

Doubtless you'll need to have the last word so go ahead. But I'm sure all right-minded people in this thread will see your "We can't afford to sack Wright" assertion has been thoroughly disproved.




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Re: Management

Post by shawry » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:32 pm

Darlogramps wrote:Not quite sure why you're trying to deflect the discussion to being about me. It's a tactic you deploy repeatedly when you've got nothing left to say. I've kept it on topic and been polite.

Everyone can see your "We can't afford to sack Wright" argument has fallen apart, but your deflection tactics are as boring as they are repetitive.

Try defending your argument and keeping it on topic, otherwise it all descends into an embarrassing farce. And if you've nothing worthwhile on topic to add, probably best you stop posting.
Why has the argument fallen apart?

Surely its a perfectly valid opinion to say we can't afford to sack the manager because all things you say are plausible also may not happen and you believe some or all of them are enough to make it a financial risk?

I don't know, As in in the give him chance as I still think we are good enough to not get relegated, and because of that I'm happy enough to give TW more time.

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Re: Management

Post by loan_star » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:01 pm

shawry wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:Not quite sure why you're trying to deflect the discussion to being about me. It's a tactic you deploy repeatedly when you've got nothing left to say. I've kept it on topic and been polite.

Everyone can see your "We can't afford to sack Wright" argument has fallen apart, but your deflection tactics are as boring as they are repetitive.

Try defending your argument and keeping it on topic, otherwise it all descends into an embarrassing farce. And if you've nothing worthwhile on topic to add, probably best you stop posting.
Why has the argument fallen apart?

Surely its a perfectly valid opinion to say we can't afford to sack the manager because all things you say are plausible also may not happen and you believe some or all of them are enough to make it a financial risk?

I don't know, As in in the give him chance as I still think we are good enough to not get relegated, and because of that I'm happy enough to give TW more time.

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Re: Management

Post by don'tbuythesun » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:41 pm

This started off as a reasonable discussion and rapidly deteriorated (again). Surely it's a possibility that if Tommy is shown the door (I'm personally ambivalent about this for now) it could cost us dearly or it might not cost us at all. It may be an expensive call or it may not. We don't know so I think either side of the argument may be right but who knows what the future holds? I'm definitely in the FC United away end!

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Re: Management

Post by Darlo_Pete » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:43 pm

I'm making the trip over, for what is a crucial game, see you at the game DBTS. Doesn't threads that Gramps gets involved in usually veer away from the actual subject of the thread?

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Re: Management

Post by don'tbuythesun » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:11 pm

I think he just loves an argument! He never threatens anyone and he's not abusive but he can be annoying. The nature of the forum means its inhabited by all sorts. See you at FC.

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Re: Management

Post by Darlogramps » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:36 pm

Darlo_Pete wrote:I'm making the trip over, for what is a crucial game, see you at the game DBTS. Doesn't threads that Gramps gets involved in usually veer away from the actual subject of the thread?
Except I kept this one topic. Loan_Star was the one who lost the argument so threw his toys out of the pram and turned it another bitchfest about me.

More than happy to remain on topic. But it takes two to tango.
Last edited by Darlogramps on Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Management

Post by Spyman » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:38 pm

Why is White "as responsible" as Wright? Wright is the boss - he should be telling White (his assistant) what to do.

If something goes wrong at work, I carry the can, not my number two - unless he's gone against what I asked him to do.

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