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 Post subject: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:02 pm 
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With a number of fans questioning the changing of management and additional players it got me interested and thinking about the finances of the club and thought I would do a rough guestimate of costs and income. I have use just average and general figures but thought it would give me an idea. I know this won’t be perfect and I will have missed areas out, there will be fans who have more detail than I do but it was an interesting thing and a reality check. Mine were as follows for this year:-

Income (I have assumed the season ticket money and car parking paid in advance covers the close season costs, signing on fees etc and covers some of the carry over debt).

Average 1350 fans attend games, - 700 (5 year & season tickets?), - 50 (under 11’s) = 650 paying fans per game at say an average of £12 each = £7.8k (minus tax at 20%) = £6.3k through the gate per game.
£500 per game from 50/50 draw
150 paying car parking / game @£3 (£5 - £1 rugby club & £1 tax) = £450 / game
£500 average profit per game from hospitality after tax.
Total money from the games = £7,750 divide by 2 = £3875 per week (as we only play at home once a fortnight on average.
Weekly draw money average at £250 per week to the club
£80k Boost the budget / 42 = £1900 per week (42 week season).
£20k for snow dive and £4k for legends game / 42 = £580 per week.
£70k for transfers out / 42 = £1.7 per week (not sure we get all money this year).
£10k from the DFCSG from membership and events / 42 = £240 per week
Total for the season per week = £8.5k, lets round up to £9k to included money from sales on the day food and drink and programmes etc.

Expenditure (all figures estimates and could be higher)

18 x players @ £300 per week, 1 x gk coach @ £200 per week, 2 x management team @ £600 per week + 9% NI contributions? = approx. £7400 per week (think this may well be underestimate?)
Security for the games @ £400 / 2 = £200 per week
Rent to rugby club £60k / 52 = £1150 per week (I am sure £60k mentioned at AGM)
Bus for away games for players @ £300 per week?
Assume additional to cover for costs such as entertaining officials and visiting directors, postage for correspondence, attendance at external FA meetings, meals for players etc @ £200 per week.

Total weekly expenditure = £9250

That makes it £250 per week loss x 42 weeks is a debt of £10,500 by the end of the year. Think what that would be if we had not got the £80k boost the budget and the snow dive money, and transfers out this year and therefore impact on next years budget!!

While I know these figures may be well out, and holes can be picked through, they could be out either way, but shows what a balancing act we have to stay afloat, and the need to keep costs in line.

If we could get 1000 of our fans to pay £10 per week to the club, then we would have a real sustainable club, but we know that won’t happen as we have maybe 400 fans who are willing or able to support financially and will need them again next year or we will need to cut the budget by £100k+ and the young lads coming through in the academy are not ready yet, (although worth going the watch them as they all have heart and work there socks off in the games I have seen).

Still this was just for thought, others on the board can refigure the finances as well and may get a different number as this was on back of a fag packet stuff, just for interest.


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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:08 pm 
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And that’s assuming you start from a zero position with no carryover. Lots of the revenue you identify will have gone towards paying costs for the prior financial year therefore aren’t available to offset costs in the current season


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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:24 pm 
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Absolutely, which is why I didn't include income from season ticket sales, but suspect that there was more needed as you pointed out. Makes you think how bad next year could be if the commercial aspects don't deliver for next year, although looking good at the moment I must say.


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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:21 pm 
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Depressing how little money a club like us generates. Those figures won't be accurate but they won't be massively off either.

It appears that to move forward at the moment you need to either have a benefactor putting in and writing off vast sums (not recommending that as we have had that before and look where we ended up) or have an incredibly efficient and successful commercial department bringing substantial monies into the club that way.

We just have to hope that the new Commercial Manager can build the commercial side of the club enough to take the hit of falling attendances, and also hope that we can still attract a decent number of supporters through the gate as the more that falls the more damage it does to the club, but it will be difficult to convince people to attend as the home form/performances this season bar a few games have been mediocre at best.

My concern would be the sort of 'shrinkage' of the club as support falls away and revenue streams diminish. But then again, we are a town with a population of roughly 110,000 people but struggle to get 1,500 through the gate, so maybe the club is at the level it should be based on the interest the people of this town has in it's football club. Which is a shame for those of us that care passionately for the club.


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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:32 pm 
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Gow9900 wrote:

It appears that to move forward at the moment you need to either have a benefactor putting in and writing off vast sums (not recommending that as we have had that before and look where we ended up) or have an incredibly efficient and successful commercial department bringing substantial monies into the club that way.



The two most alarming points in the original post are the 60k rent, which I think is roughly correct from what I remember, may have been slightly more, 65k perhaps. I'm also sure that the previous rent paid to Bishop was 27k. If you consider that difference is between 50% and 66% of the overall debt from previous year, for which we get no more than we got at Bishop.

Secondly, as you say, none of that expenditure includes money made from utilisation of the facilities for which we pay a substantial amount in rent. This is one of the biggest issues behind why we are so tight budget wise... we make nothing from Blackwell Meadows... which is perhaps a much bigger issue than a lack of a benefactor, who incidentally, we'd be extremely lucky to attract given that our house is built on sand.


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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:45 pm 
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60k rent....my god have we been ripped off by the rugby lot...no wonder we are struggling for cash.Shocked if that figure is correct.

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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:23 pm 
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As far as I remember £60k is for rent and services supplied. Some of those services are direct revenue generators for us such as meals for hospitality


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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:28 pm 
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Money was to rubgy club for services but think I remember it being said somewhere that we pay for the meals at hospitality separately and also for the tea and coffee etc for the visiting board and players, even remember it being said when we first went there that we even had to pay for orange juice put in the changing rooms. May have changed but think the services refer to heating, electricity upkeep of the pitch who.


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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:35 pm 
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I heard that we paid £800 a match at Bishop, so roughly 20-25k per season.

60k seems very steep.

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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:16 pm 
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What makes it even more galling, if we had not turned up with our £60k pa offer, the rugby club would have gone bust soon after. Then we could have bought the ground outright and done whatever we liked with it using the £60k saved on rent. Arrgghh


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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:50 pm 
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You've missed any income generated from Merchandise. The figures look tight when you add in the salary for the Chief Exec too


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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:28 pm 
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I missed a few things off on the commercial side as not sure on the profit on items rather than revenue, but also missed off things like possible travel expenses and bonus money for players etc as I have no idea. I understand that no one on the board including the CEO currently takes a penny from the club only the new commercial manager is a paid employee I think.


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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:45 am 
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I'm positive I read that the chief executive receives a salary


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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:46 am 
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lifetime darlo fan wrote:
I'm positive I read that the chief executive receives a salary

& why wouldn't he? I certainly wouldn't do the job he does for nothing either.

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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:53 am 
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50 years wrote:
I understand that no one on the board including the CEO currently takes a penny from the club only the new commercial manager is a paid employee I think.


I think the above is correct.

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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:01 am 
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QUAKERMAN2 wrote:
60k rent....my god have we been ripped off by the rugby lot...no wonder we are struggling for cash.Shocked if that figure is correct.

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it is correct, I had a look back recently, I think Craig Stoddart made a list of highlights from the presentation DJ gave at the Dolphin, it was at least 60 grand, may have been slightly more, 60 something; 65 maybe.

I also remember although it may not have been from the Dolphin forum, that the rent at Bishop was 27k


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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:05 am 
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It was said when David Johnson arrived that in the future they were talking about a gratuity for him, but not sure he has taken one.
As has been mentioned he would be entitled to as he was not a Darlo fan, (but now a convert i believe), but brought in to steady the ship, make it more proffessional and get it on a good financial footing which I think he has worked towards and can be seen.


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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:34 am 
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David Johnson is definitely Gray's best signing.

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Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011


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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:44 am 
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AndyPark wrote:
lifetime darlo fan wrote:
I'm positive I read that the chief executive receives a salary

& why wouldn't he? I certainly wouldn't do the job he does for nothing either.


Who said I was against paying him? It's just a statement that there are higher potential costs if he receives an income which I believe he does. Stop being so touchy!


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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:06 pm 
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one thing that still bugs me and I'm not sure if anyone knows the answer and I don't think I've heard anything from the club is...

Are we still receiving all of the pledges or have any of them been cancelled or never set up, therefore the £80k we are talking about is actually much less? I presume a pledge isn't binding therefore anyone can stop at anytime.

We keep mentioning the £80k like it's a guarantee, I would presume it's not.

Would the club come and out and say that the fans hadn't kept to their pledge? Maybe, maybe not. They don't want to sound like they are criticising the fanbase


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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:16 pm 
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D_F_C wrote:
one thing that still bugs me and I'm not sure if anyone knows the answer and I don't think I've heard anything from the club is...

Are we still receiving all of the pledges or have any of them been cancelled or never set up, therefore the £80k we are talking about is actually much less? I presume a pledge isn't binding therefore anyone can stop at anytime.

We keep mentioning the £80k like it's a guarantee, I would presume it's not.

Would the club come and out and say that the fans hadn't kept to their pledge? Maybe, maybe not. They don't want to sound like they are criticising the fanbase


They wouldn't have to name names though. Its quite possible people haven't stumped up what they pledged, nothing wrong with the club saying that not all the £80k has come in and thats why we are cutting our cloth accordingly.


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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:39 pm 
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50 years wrote:
With a number of fans questioning the changing of management and additional players it got me interested and thinking about the finances of the club and thought I would do a rough guestimate of costs and income. I have use just average and general figures but thought it would give me an idea. I know this won’t be perfect and I will have missed areas out, there will be fans who have more detail than I do but it was an interesting thing and a reality check. Mine were as follows for this year:-

Income (I have assumed the season ticket money and car parking paid in advance covers the close season costs, signing on fees etc and covers some of the carry over debt).

Average 1350 fans attend games, - 700 (5 year & season tickets?), - 50 (under 11’s) = 650 paying fans per game at say an average of £12 each = £7.8k (minus tax at 20%) = £6.3k through the gate per game.
£500 per game from 50/50 draw
150 paying car parking / game @£3 (£5 - £1 rugby club & £1 tax) = £450 / game
£500 average profit per game from hospitality after tax.
Total money from the games = £7,750 divide by 2 = £3875 per week (as we only play at home once a fortnight on average.
Weekly draw money average at £250 per week to the club
£80k Boost the budget / 42 = £1900 per week (42 week season).
£20k for snow dive and £4k for legends game / 42 = £580 per week.
£70k for transfers out / 42 = £1.7 per week (not sure we get all money this year).
£10k from the DFCSG from membership and events / 42 = £240 per week
Total for the season per week = £8.5k, lets round up to £9k to included money from sales on the day food and drink and programmes etc.

Expenditure (all figures estimates and could be higher)

18 x players @ £300 per week, 1 x gk coach @ £200 per week, 2 x management team @ £600 per week + 9% NI contributions? = approx. £7400 per week (think this may well be underestimate?)
Security for the games @ £400 / 2 = £200 per week
Rent to rugby club £60k / 52 = £1150 per week (I am sure £60k mentioned at AGM)
Bus for away games for players @ £300 per week?
Assume additional to cover for costs such as entertaining officials and visiting directors, postage for correspondence, attendance at external FA meetings, meals for players etc @ £200 per week.

Total weekly expenditure = £9250

That makes it £250 per week loss x 42 weeks is a debt of £10,500 by the end of the year. Think what that would be if we had not got the £80k boost the budget and the snow dive money, and transfers out this year and therefore impact on next years budget!!

While I know these figures may be well out, and holes can be picked through, they could be out either way, but shows what a balancing act we have to stay afloat, and the need to keep costs in line.

If we could get 1000 of our fans to pay £10 per week to the club, then we would have a real sustainable club, but we know that won’t happen as we have maybe 400 fans who are willing or able to support financially and will need them again next year or we will need to cut the budget by £100k+ and the young lads coming through in the academy are not ready yet, (although worth going the watch them as they all have heart and work there socks off in the games I have seen).

Still this was just for thought, others on the board can refigure the finances as well and may get a different number as this was on back of a fag packet stuff, just for interest.


As some have said, probably not a million miles away.

Just one thing, are there any funds we receive from the FA (Im trying not to laugh here)by being members of the League and the Sponsorship by Vanarama that are to be included?


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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:11 pm 
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jjljks wrote:
What makes it even more galling, if we had not turned up with our £60k pa offer, the rugby club would have gone bust soon after. Then we could have bought the ground outright and done whatever we liked with it using the £60k saved on rent. Arrgghh


Bought the ground outright.....?

We'd have been competing with Housing firms & supermarkets perhaps? And I doubt we'd have been granted a mortgage sizeable enough to compete?


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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:56 pm 
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Think it is £15k from the FA in this league (£45k in conference and £1M in div 2). Never included this as I just lumped it in with season tickets sales and getting through the close season but should have mentioned it.


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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:21 pm 
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50 years wrote:
Think it is £15k from the FA in this league (£45k in conference and £1M in div 2). Never included this as I just lumped it in with season tickets sales and getting through the close season but should have mentioned it.


Jesus, didnt realise the gap to L2 was so big.

Also highlights how bad FA Cup exits must have hit finances over the years.


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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:29 pm 
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50 years wrote:
Think it is £15k from the FA in this league


Yet Scudamore gets a £5m parting gift when he leaves his already very well paid job.


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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:11 pm 
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loan_star wrote:
50 years wrote:
Think it is £15k from the FA in this league


Yet Scudamore gets a £5m parting gift when he leaves his already very well paid job.
That's nothing to do with the FA though, so not entirely relevant to this discussion.

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Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:21 pm 
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loan_star wrote:
D_F_C wrote:
one thing that still bugs me and I'm not sure if anyone knows the answer and I don't think I've heard anything from the club is...

Are we still receiving all of the pledges or have any of them been cancelled or never set up, therefore the £80k we are talking about is actually much less? I presume a pledge isn't binding therefore anyone can stop at anytime.

We keep mentioning the £80k like it's a guarantee, I would presume it's not.

Would the club come and out and say that the fans hadn't kept to their pledge? Maybe, maybe not. They don't want to sound like they are criticising the fanbase


They wouldn't have to name names though. Its quite possible people haven't stumped up what they pledged, nothing wrong with the club saying that not all the £80k has come in and thats why we are cutting our cloth accordingly.


Yes. We don't really know either way. If some of our bigger fans were tempted to jack in the BTB then have others actually done it.


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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:21 pm 
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Spyman wrote:
loan_star wrote:
50 years wrote:
Think it is £15k from the FA in this league


Yet Scudamore gets a £5m parting gift when he leaves his already very well paid job.
That's nothing to do with the FA though, so not entirely relevant to this discussion.

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It was an FA recommendation to the clubs wasnt it? Either way it shows the scandalous waste of money at the top end of the game. Clubs can afford to give a bloke a farewell windfall but think nothing of cherry picking players from local non league clubs with no recompense.


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 Post subject: Re: Clubs finances
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:25 pm 
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loan_star wrote:
Spyman wrote:
loan_star wrote:
50 years wrote:
Think it is £15k from the FA in this league


Yet Scudamore gets a £5m parting gift when he leaves his already very well paid job.
That's nothing to do with the FA though, so not entirely relevant to this discussion.

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It was an FA recommendation to the clubs wasnt it? Either way it shows the scandalous waste of money at the top end of the game. Clubs can afford to give a bloke a farewell windfall but think nothing of cherry picking players from local non league clubs with no recompense.


It was a suggestion by Bruce Buck of Chelsea and nothing to do with the FA

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