Arena Sports Village

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Quakerlad
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Arena Sports Village

Post by Quakerlad » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:07 pm

Article in the N Echo today about how the local council is using some government funding to allocate money to a number of projects around Darlington, including....quote “ £1.5m has been earmarked for a sports village at Darlington Mowden Park Arena” .

Oh if only they would earmark £1.5m to support a new ground for the towns most supported sporting club!

It does seem to have gone quiet on the sporting hub front in terms of any involvement with us. But in reality, why would the rugby club want us to have the 4g pitch, clubhouse etc to make money from their development, it’s just not going to happen despite DJ inferring it could provide us with a lifeline some months ago.

Ghost_Of_1883
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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:30 pm

Nope, and it would also involve us playing at the Arena - which I personally wouldn't mind, but many would be against it.

Cos BM is so much better isn't it.
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quaker4life
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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by quaker4life » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:44 pm

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it, time and time again.

That's all I'm saying.
love it! wrote:Considering we are Darlington 1883 I'm happy that we are named correctly

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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:59 pm

Difference now is we wouldn't be responsible for the cost of the Arena, we'd be tenants paying rent, as we do now.

It's been a long while since I've had snot frozen to my nose whilst the secret nudge nudge wink wink club were in the Ron Greener having a beer and a warm. Bring it back.
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tdk1
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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by tdk1 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:05 pm

I really am baffled as to why the council want to chuck money at this project for mowden. I don't get it at all.

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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:08 pm

They've always cluster wanked over insignificant piss pot amateur rugby clubs and cricket clubs though haven't they?

Fuck the football club who are comparative giants, they can sort themselves out.
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bga
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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by bga » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:01 pm

Ghost_Of_1883 wrote:They've always cluster wanked over insignificant piss pot amateur rugby clubs and cricket clubs though haven't they?

Fuck the football club who are comparative giants, they can sort themselves out.
Take a step back...….are we really "comparative giants"? Depends how you measure this, if it is home attendances alone football probably wins, though Mowden regularly get gates approaching 1,000. if you look at local community involvement they run something like 23 teams, men, women and kids, each team must have a squad of say 20, so close to 500 players. Then add all their social members plus all the Commercial events they run. I understand your frustration, but Mowden probably have as many, or maybe more, local Council taxpayers involved 7 days a week in the Rugby Club than DFC. Remember a number of our fans are exiles like myself, who don't put anything back into the town so to speak apart from the odd home match. Sorry, but I just don't think DFC is anything like as big as we once were, Mowden seem to involve more of the community to me.

Beano
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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by Beano » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:46 pm

bga wrote:
Ghost_Of_1883 wrote:They've always cluster wanked over insignificant piss pot amateur rugby clubs and cricket clubs though haven't they?

Fuck the football club who are comparative giants, they can sort themselves out.
Take a step back...….are we really "comparative giants"? Depends how you measure this, if it is home attendances alone football probably wins, though Mowden regularly get gates approaching 1,000. if you look at local community involvement they run something like 23 teams, men, women and kids, each team must have a squad of say 20, so close to 500 players. Then add all their social members plus all the Commercial events they run. I understand your frustration, but Mowden probably have as many, or maybe more, local Council taxpayers involved 7 days a week in the Rugby Club than DFC. Remember a number of our fans are exiles like myself, who don't put anything back into the town so to speak apart from the odd home match. Sorry, but I just don't think DFC is anything like as big as we once were, Mowden seem to involve more of the community to me.
That is the critical mass.

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Makka Pakka
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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by Makka Pakka » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:24 am

quaker4life wrote:Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it, time and time again.

That's all I'm saying.
mmm, fairly sure we met our doom because we were deliberately run at an unsustainable loss, not because of the concrete and steel around us.
Yes, the increased running costs had a knock-on effect on finances, but going back as tenants would obviously be different. Compare it to renting a field for £60k and having to constantly find cash to upgrade it knowing it will never meet our needs.
"At a meeting held at the Grammar School on Friday last - Mr Phillip Wood M.A., in the chair - it was resolved to form an Association Football Club for Darlington and neighbourhood. The opinions of those present were so unanimous as to the desirability of this step, that a committee was formed to complete the organisation of the club, and Mr Craven, 17, Garden Street, was appointed secretary pro tem." - The Northern Echo, Monday 23rd July 1883

m62exile
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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by m62exile » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:05 am

tdk1 wrote:I really am baffled as to why the council want to chuck money at this project for mowden. I don't get it at all.
Don't forget, freeing up the site generates a lot of housing stock. The stadium site is only about 30% or so of the total area under discussion here. Also, if the initial plans that were discussed are still ongoing then Mowden were agreeing to give over the stadium and land to a joint venture with the council.

It isn't just a case of the council giving Mowden money, it's part of a bigger business case for that whole part of town.

Whether we are any part of that is a million dollar question, but I can see easily how it could make sense to the council and Mowden.

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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by TDS » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:47 am

As harsh as this sounds both Rugby Clubs are in the same boat in regards to needing us to survive. Time is all it will take. Mowden had a pile of cash and burnt through a lot at an alarming rate, hence the desire to diversify further and bring in support from Local Authority.

What I do not like is always being at the back of the queue now, we are giving Blackwell Rugby Club their existence back and meanwhile we are stuttering and spluttering along.

I'd much rather they saw that without us both succeeding we will both fail, they will return to their life-support existence if we go elsewhere and from a business perspective you would support customers for the long term benefits and not work against them at every opportunity as we feel Blackwell do.

If we had our time again, we should've been less eager to move back as quickly regardless of cost and let Blackwell really feel the pinch, with the wall fast approaching they may have been easier to negotiate with. As a poster quiet brutally said recently, if they'd have gone under we'd have waltzed into that Clubhouse with the Council patting us on the back.

Mr Morley for me needs to get round the table and paint quite a bleak picture as to our finances and without any sign of increases in attendance as predicted by the move back, our environment has changed and this needs to be addressed if we remain at BM.

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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by spen666 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:50 am

m62exile wrote:
tdk1 wrote:I really am baffled as to why the council want to chuck money at this project for mowden. I don't get it at all.
Don't forget, freeing up the site generates a lot of housing stock. The stadium site is only about 30% or so of the total area under discussion here. Also, if the initial plans that were discussed are still ongoing then Mowden were agreeing to give over the stadium and land to a joint venture with the council.

It isn't just a case of the council giving Mowden money, it's part of a bigger business case for that whole part of town.

Whether we are any part of that is a million dollar question, but I can see easily how it could make sense to the council and Mowden
.

The problem for the football club is that Mowden provide investment upfront in form of land. The Council provide investment in the form of cash investment.

What investment are the football club able to bring to enable them to have a stake in the venture?

The reality is the club have nothing to offer in terms of capital investment. They can provide a good source of income ( rent etc) but no capital investment.

Without a Capital Investment the other parties are unlikely to give them a stake in the ownership of the joint venture.

This leaves effectively a choice, be a tenant / licensee at BM or the same at the Arena
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Ghost_Of_1883
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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:03 pm

This is what gets me though.

Aside from when GR built the Arena, DFC has never owned land or a football ground. It didn't take long for GH to come along, separate the Arena from the football club and that was pretty much that.

So how come all of these little minor sporting clubs have owned land and assets? The cricket club, who we rented from for most of our history, were able to sell Feethams. Mowden were able to sell their place and buy the Arena. DRFC own BM do they not?

I dunno.
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divas
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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by divas » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:11 pm

Even if we had it would have been taken off us and used to line someone’s pocket at some point in our history.

TDS
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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by TDS » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:14 pm

Golf clubs always do well out of selling land for housing too!

No such luck for us, maybe it was just never available or maybe there's been too many with a financial interest as opposed to a custodian who would gift anything over.

Darlopartisan
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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by Darlopartisan » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:35 pm

It might sound a daft question, but have we ever asked the council for land? I know when everything went tits up in 2012 it was a scramble to find somewhere to play Shildon/Bishop, yea I know nothing could of been done in the short term if land had been allocated/leased/ donated but long term! We were probably looked on as a basket case and probably still are.

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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by spen666 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:40 pm

Darlopartisan wrote:It might sound a daft question, but have we ever asked the council for land? I know when everything went tits up in 2012 it was a scramble to find somewhere to play Shildon/Bishop, yea I know nothing could of been done in the short term if land had been allocated/leased/ donated but long term! We were probably looked on as a basket case and probably still are.
The Council can't simply gift land away. That is ultra vires.

They could obviously lease land to the football club if there was a suitable site.
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SwansQuaker83
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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by SwansQuaker83 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:56 pm

Ghost_Of_1883 wrote:Nope, and it would also involve us playing at the Arena - which I personally wouldn't mind, but many would be against it.

Cos BM is so much better isn't it.
I'd go back to the arena tomorrow... I don't get why people wouldn't because of the past... fair enough don't let Singh back, but the arena is a pile of bricks and steel, not sure how anyone can get angry at bricks and steel.

The council have also kind of shafted us if they go ahead with this new village yet don't accommodate us within it. They threw their weight behind our move to BM. I had a conversation years ago on Twitter before we moved, talking about alternative sites, mentioned Eastbourne for one, and a prominent politician tweeted me quite abruptly saying it was BM and only BM and this was going to be Darlo's sporting hub... well it isn't it's a field, they've done bog all else in support of this "hub" since and now they're going to throw millions at the arena site.

It's about time they got behind us because as much as they may love a bit of egg chasing or watching someone throw a ball at a plank of wood, football will always ultimately be the biggest sport and we will always be the biggest team/club. The benefits of a successful football club to the local economy, particularly a relatively small town like Darlo, are massive... it's within everyone's interest for our club to be successful, it's time the short sighted divs in the town hall woke up and realised that.

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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by SwansQuaker83 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:08 pm

spen666 wrote:
m62exile wrote:
tdk1 wrote:I really am baffled as to why the council want to chuck money at this project for mowden. I don't get it at all.
Don't forget, freeing up the site generates a lot of housing stock. The stadium site is only about 30% or so of the total area under discussion here. Also, if the initial plans that were discussed are still ongoing then Mowden were agreeing to give over the stadium and land to a joint venture with the council.

It isn't just a case of the council giving Mowden money, it's part of a bigger business case for that whole part of town.

Whether we are any part of that is a million dollar question, but I can see easily how it could make sense to the council and Mowden
.

The problem for the football club is that Mowden provide investment upfront in form of land. The Council provide investment in the form of cash investment.

What investment are the football club able to bring to enable them to have a stake in the venture?

The reality is the club have nothing to offer in terms of capital investment. They can provide a good source of income ( rent etc) but no capital investment.
If we become successful we can generate huge investment... Football's a multi billion pound business, it dwarfs anything rugby can offer... Even if Mowden got to the Premiership, they'd only get 3k... Newcastle Falcons only get about that... they'd perhaps get 5k to start until the novelty wore off.

A successful football club can massively boost a town's profile and economy... There is no sense at all in Darlo council not wanting us to be successful...

I grew up supporting Swans, during the Tony Petty era, local businesses who were owed money accepted 5p in the pound back because they knew a successful football club was a better long term prospect... we recovered and we've just spent the last 7 seasons in the Premier League... the council built us a stadium and charged us a peppercorn rent for that same reason, and it hugely benefitted the local economy. That's what Darlo have to bring to the party, if we are successful. Taking us for every penny as the rugby club have done with this deal hinders them... we can't afford a better team, crowds are down, bar sales are down, it has a knock on effect... it'll have an even bigger one if we go down.

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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by onewayup » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:42 pm

There is land available and aways has been, the problem is its bare land and we just could not afford to take it on, to start from scratch and get a playing surface and stadia upto the league standards would cost millions, today as it would have then, unfortunately we don't have a sugar daddy to dip into their millions to help us with the substantial costs. We are where we are because we can afford to be where we are. Fact . Back the club and bring a couple of friends when possible and give the team a boost, we as a club must always strive to be the best we can be at one anytime

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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by Yarblockos » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:53 pm

I'd also go back to the Arena like a shot. BM is one of the worse venues for watching football I've ever been to.

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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by spen666 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:58 pm

SwansQuaker83 wrote:
spen666 wrote:
m62exile wrote:
tdk1 wrote:I really am baffled as to why the council want to chuck money at this project for mowden. I don't get it at all.
Don't forget, freeing up the site generates a lot of housing stock. The stadium site is only about 30% or so of the total area under discussion here. Also, if the initial plans that were discussed are still ongoing then Mowden were agreeing to give over the stadium and land to a joint venture with the council.

It isn't just a case of the council giving Mowden money, it's part of a bigger business case for that whole part of town.

Whether we are any part of that is a million dollar question, but I can see easily how it could make sense to the council and Mowden
.



The problem for the football club is that Mowden provide investment upfront in form of land. The Council provide investment in the form of cash investment.

What investment are the football club able to bring to enable them to have a stake in the venture?

The reality is the club have nothing to offer in terms of capital investment. They can provide a good source of income ( rent etc) but no capital investment.
If we become successful we can generate huge investment... Football's a multi billion pound business, it dwarfs anything rugby can offer... Even if Mowden got to the Premiership, they'd only get 3k... Newcastle Falcons only get about that... they'd perhaps get 5k to start until the novelty wore off.

A successful football club can massively boost a town's profile and economy... There is no sense at all in Darlo council not wanting us to be successful...

I grew up supporting Swans, during the Tony Petty era, local businesses who were owed money accepted 5p in the pound back because they knew a successful football club was a better long term prospect... we recovered and we've just spent the last 7 seasons in the Premier League... the council built us a stadium and charged us a peppercorn rent for that same reason, and it hugely benefitted the local economy. That's what Darlo have to bring to the party, if we are successful. Taking us for every penny as the rugby club have done with this deal hinders them... we can't afford a better team, crowds are down, bar sales are down, it has a knock on effect... it'll have an even bigger one if we go down.

Your analysis with Swansea is only a partial record.

The creditors accepted a tiny % of what they were owed because that was all that was available. The future success of Swansea meant nothing to the creditors. It was not a deferrred payment it was a one off tiny payment as a liquidation would mean they get even less after costs etc.


As for the new ground. The council owned the Vetch Field and were able to redevelop it after the club moved to the new ground. So the Council didn't give Swansea anything. They simply persuaded them to give up the lease on the valuable land at the Vetch Field for a lease on a less valuable site in town. ( When talking about value - I am referring to redevelopment value to council).

Darlington football club are not playing on a council owned site, so the comparison is not the same.



PS Swans - there are some great pictorial records of the history of the Vetch Field on the internet. Hours of great surfing.
It was never the same ground after the Upper Tier of West Stand was removed.
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Quakerlad
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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by Quakerlad » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:45 pm

My understanding of the sporting hub is that it will be a joint venture between council and rugby club with both parties hoping for some sustainable income from it going forward. The rugby club have the land and existing facilities and the council have access to investment to support the building of it.
Unfortunately, we can offer basically nothing except future potential if we ever became successful again, so let’s rule out us becoming a partner in this. Despite what DJ tried to sell to us a while ago, we just don’t have the leverage to end up with our own 4g pitch, clubhouse etc, we just don’t!
Our options therefore are really:

1. Hope that a fan wins the euro lottery and builds us a lovely little stadium. Unlikely. Similarly, accept that a wealthy investor suddenly comes out of the woodwork and does the same thing. Unlikely.

2. Stay at BM and muddle along as we are with shocking facilities and relationship with landlord with little to no chance of growth.

3. Embrace the sporting hub concept of bringing all of Darlingtons sporting clubs, small and large, together on a universal site with great facilities. Yes we would probably have to play at the Arena and would still be tenants but surely it would be virtually impossible to negotiate such a bad deal as we did at BM.

Yes there would be things to overcome like who plays on a Sat afternoon, how do we get out of the BM deal etc etc. We really have to forget about all the bad things from previous regimes at the Arena, like someone said, it’s just a stadium made of steel. It did us no harm, it was the people running it who did.

Lots of arguments too about lack of atmosphere, not easy to walk too etc etc, but come on, how many things are great about BM. At the same time there are benefits too like a great view, all covered, warm at half time and let’s not forget it helps attract players due to its facilities.

All I am saying is that if this ever becomes an option, and it may well be in the next 12 months, then let’s at least consider it, as my guess is that it will be a one off chance to get out of BM.

SwansQuaker83
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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by SwansQuaker83 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:59 pm

spen666 wrote:
SwansQuaker83 wrote:
spen666 wrote:
m62exile wrote:
tdk1 wrote:I really am baffled as to why the council want to chuck money at this project for mowden. I don't get it at all.
Don't forget, freeing up the site generates a lot of housing stock. The stadium site is only about 30% or so of the total area under discussion here. Also, if the initial plans that were discussed are still ongoing then Mowden were agreeing to give over the stadium and land to a joint venture with the council.

It isn't just a case of the council giving Mowden money, it's part of a bigger business case for that whole part of town.

Whether we are any part of that is a million dollar question, but I can see easily how it could make sense to the council and Mowden
.



The problem for the football club is that Mowden provide investment upfront in form of land. The Council provide investment in the form of cash investment.

What investment are the football club able to bring to enable them to have a stake in the venture?

The reality is the club have nothing to offer in terms of capital investment. They can provide a good source of income ( rent etc) but no capital investment.
If we become successful we can generate huge investment... Football's a multi billion pound business, it dwarfs anything rugby can offer... Even if Mowden got to the Premiership, they'd only get 3k... Newcastle Falcons only get about that... they'd perhaps get 5k to start until the novelty wore off.

A successful football club can massively boost a town's profile and economy... There is no sense at all in Darlo council not wanting us to be successful...

I grew up supporting Swans, during the Tony Petty era, local businesses who were owed money accepted 5p in the pound back because they knew a successful football club was a better long term prospect... we recovered and we've just spent the last 7 seasons in the Premier League... the council built us a stadium and charged us a peppercorn rent for that same reason, and it hugely benefitted the local economy. That's what Darlo have to bring to the party, if we are successful. Taking us for every penny as the rugby club have done with this deal hinders them... we can't afford a better team, crowds are down, bar sales are down, it has a knock on effect... it'll have an even bigger one if we go down.

Your analysis with Swansea is only a partial record.

The creditors accepted a tiny % of what they were owed because that was all that was available. The future success of Swansea meant nothing to the creditors. It was not a deferrred payment it was a one off tiny payment as a liquidation would mean they get even less after costs etc.


As for the new ground. The council owned the Vetch Field and were able to redevelop it after the club moved to the new ground. So the Council didn't give Swansea anything. They simply persuaded them to give up the lease on the valuable land at the Vetch Field for a lease on a less valuable site in town. ( When talking about value - I am referring to redevelopment value to council).

Darlington football club are not playing on a council owned site, so the comparison is not the same.



PS Swans - there are some great pictorial records of the history of the Vetch Field on the internet. Hours of great surfing.
It was never the same ground after the Upper Tier of West Stand was removed.
It had to go due to Bradford... the "double decker" was wooden. Never saw it in the flesh as I was too young... I started going around 93.

It was also local businesses and sponsors...

The Vetch land wasn't that valuable... it's in the middle of a rough housing area and is nothing more than community allotments now.

edit: and behind a prison.

SwansQuaker83
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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by SwansQuaker83 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:04 pm

Quakerlad wrote:My understanding of the sporting hub is that it will be a joint venture between council and rugby club with both parties hoping for some sustainable income from it going forward. The rugby club have the land and existing facilities and the council have access to investment to support the building of it.
Unfortunately, we can offer basically nothing except future potential if we ever became successful again, so let’s rule out us becoming a partner in this. Despite what DJ tried to sell to us a while ago, we just don’t have the leverage to end up with our own 4g pitch, clubhouse etc, we just don’t!
Our options therefore are really:

1. Hope that a fan wins the euro lottery and builds us a lovely little stadium. Unlikely. Similarly, accept that a wealthy investor suddenly comes out of the woodwork and does the same thing. Unlikely.

2. Stay at BM and muddle along as we are with shocking facilities and relationship with landlord with little to no chance of growth.

3. Embrace the sporting hub concept of bringing all of Darlingtons sporting clubs, small and large, together on a universal site with great facilities. Yes we would probably have to play at the Arena and would still be tenants but surely it would be virtually impossible to negotiate such a bad deal as we did at BM.

Yes there would be things to overcome like who plays on a Sat afternoon, how do we get out of the BM deal etc etc. We really have to forget about all the bad things from previous regimes at the Arena, like someone said, it’s just a stadium made of steel. It did us no harm, it was the people running it who did.

Lots of arguments too about lack of atmosphere, not easy to walk too etc etc, but come on, how many things are great about BM. At the same time there are benefits too like a great view, all covered, warm at half time and let’s not forget it helps attract players due to its facilities.

All I am saying is that if this ever becomes an option, and it may well be in the next 12 months, then let’s at least consider it, as my guess is that it will be a one off chance to get out of BM.
agree completely! :clap:

Vodka_Vic
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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by Vodka_Vic » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:57 pm

Depends on the grants we would have to pay back to the FSIF for BM. Someone on the Tin Shed a while back reckoned that even if you had youth football on it then you wouldn't have to pay the grants back. Not sure how reliable this information was. If this were the case, then we'd still have to rent BM too as we'd base the academy there so as not to have to pay the grants back. IF true.

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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by Beano » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:41 pm

Rock and a hard place.

Quaker85
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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by Quaker85 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:17 pm

The Council driving this is the Tees Valley CA not Darlington BC.


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Darlo_Pete
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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by Darlo_Pete » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:23 pm

I'd have the Arena over BM any day.

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Re: Arena Sports Village

Post by quakerman » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:59 pm

Darlo_Pete wrote:I'd have the Arena over BM any day.
Ditto


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