Sports Village (latest)

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jjljks
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Re: Sports Village (latest)

Post by jjljks » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:05 pm

Yarblockos wrote:
jjljks wrote:In the unlikely event of us ever getting to the 3rd round of the FA Cup, then pulling out the hat a massive home draw, with potential 8000 crowd, could the match not be played at the Arena as a one-off? Don't need to respond to that as bookies would have us at millions to 1 although in which case a random £5 bet now would sort everything out for us without me doing the Euromillions.....
No, the FA put an end to clubs switching venues a few years ago. You have to play home games at your own ground. But if you want us to play big FA Cup ties at the Arena then you should support a move to the Arena!
Thanks for the update, but given our form in Cup competitions..... I will be over 100 and the Arena will be a pile of rust. :thumbup:

en passant
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Re: Sports Village (latest)

Post by en passant » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:51 pm

onewayup wrote:I should have said MPRC AND DARLINGTON COUNCIL, which have a sporting village hub agenda.en passant there is no leverage as our present landlords are thwarting most of what we are trying to do. They are our landlords and don't want us to forget it. Shame really as if they were more accommodating I think things could work out to the benifit of both clubs, I can only hope that they see what they could be losing should the decision be made to move. Its really their call. Help heal a rift, hinder and maybe we shift.
Thanks for the reply. I'm not quite sure I follow what you are saying when you say there is no possibility of leverage, as you go on to suggest that they might be made more accommodating if they were to realise what the loss of rental income might mean for their future. This is no more than what I was suggesting might be a bargaining chip in our favour for a more even relationship at BM if they thought that there was a chance of us getting into bed with MPRFC.

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Re: Sports Village (latest)

Post by Darlogramps » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 am

MB86DFC wrote: Opposing fans laughing at us for playing in an empty venue, so what? They laugh at us anyway for being a failed league club stuck in this awful division. Primacy of tenure could be solved if both parties were motivated to do so, plenty of rugby and football teams have got passed this.
Except the only way it can be solved is if we negotiate it in our favour, otherwise it's pointless us moving back. Quite how we do that when we have no leverage ourselves is anyone's guess. What motivation is there for MP to give us a favourable primacy of tenure deal? None that I can see.

As for opposition fans, they don't laugh at us for being an ex-league club in the NLN at all. No one has ever seen that. Actually, our drive through non-league is one of the things that's helped repair our reputational damage. But they would laugh at us for being in the National League North with a Premier League-sized ground, which would only be 5-10% full.
MB86DFC wrote: I honestly don't think we would lose the support. As mentioned I know people who would come back, but it is all hypothetical


Marvellous, so beyond asking a few people you know (who may or may not exist) you can't back it up. Wonderful.

As for attendances at BM, we've seen that a decent run in the league, winning football can lift the mood and bring attendances up around 1500 to 1700 at BM. This is roughly what we got in our play-off chasing season that never was in 16/17. This is around the same as our final seasons at the Arena.

If we had a decent manager who could at least get us playing consistently and winning more regularly, that would be a start.
MB86DFC wrote: Sponsors would not turn away, they sponsor for the commercial benefit of their business. If there are crowds equal to what we have now they will still sponsor. We will still be the same fan owned club, a lot is different now than it was under Reynolds / Singh / Houghton so comparing the two businesses is misguided.
OK then, why aren't local businesses flocking to us now? It's hardly a secret we're fan-owned and back in the town. I can tell you why - because of the reputational damage of moving to an obviously oversized ground, the three administrations and so on. And as I've stated, any non-Darlo fan associates us with the Arena and the subsequent catastrophes there. Their first thought would be "Why are you moving back there, when it caused so much trouble last time?"

These sponsors we need to drive ourselves forward aren't going support us if we go back to where all the chaos began. They certainly didn't support us at the Arena a decade ago.
MB86DFC wrote: You're correct that I can't offer anything concrete to prove we would increase support, but you cannot offer proof to the contrary.
Of course I can't PROVE it because you're presenting an hypothetical future scenario. But what I can do is inform my opinion with facts. And the facts are our attendances plummeted at the Arena. More than half since we left Feethams. We had three administrations in nine seasons there, which in part can be attributed to the Arena itself. The increased running costs, the need for extra revenue to cover them, which was one reason for the overspending on the budget (to get us higher up the leagues and generating more revenue). And if MP went bust, as is a possibility, we'd be stuck with it.
Of course 10 year average crowds would be down after leaving Feethams as it was a much loved, well located ground with 2 Wembley appearances in the last 7 years of tenancy to boost attendances. Going to the Arena with all of the fan scepticism, merry-go round of rotten owners, administrations and relegation's would naturally push attendances down. This is a completely different scenario so your Feethams to Arena attendance statistic is not relevant.
I'm sorry, but you're just spouting bullshit now. Our declining attendances at the Arena in the past is perfectly relevant. To say otherwise is moronic. We had a winning Wembley visit while at the Arena. Better than anything we had at Feethams, yet it hardly brought about an increase in attendances.

We had 14,000 at the first Arena game, so people were hardly sceptical about trying it. But when they got there, they turned their back sharpish. They'd turn out for big games, but would rarely stay beyond that. And it goes without saying the ground was clearly a factor in that.

In less than a decade more than half our regular fanbase left us. That's not something that usually happens after a club moves venue. It just doesn't. Nowhere else has that happened after a club has moved venues within the same town.

So it's a perfectly relevant statistic. Fans didn't like the Arena, it's all there for everyone to see. I know it's massively inconvenient to your argument, but you can't ignore what's happened in the past at the Arena. If you do, you just look delusional.
MB86DFC wrote: Even if attendances at the Arena stay roughly the same as they would at BM it is a better position to be in as we don't have to spend millions on upgrades.
That depends entirely on the deal that gets negotiated. Who's to say it'll be any better than what we have at BM? By your own admission it's all hypothetical so your statement here has nothing to back it up.

I can just as easily say what if Northumbrian Water accept the cheaper idea for providing access to the pipe at BM loan_Star has suggested on other threads? That would be cheaper as it'd provide greater flexibility in terms of building around the pipe, allowing us to get up to standard quicker. It's hypothetical I know, but then so is everything you're suggesting.

What we do know is moving to the Arena would instantly plunge us into hundreds of thousands of debt, through having to pay back grant money. And if MP struggle with their finances, as well-placed posters on here are suggesting, then as you admit yourself, we'd be screwed.

Look, I'm perfectly fine with your opinion being we'd be better off at the Arena, but there's nothing to support that at all. At best, all you can offer is hypothetical guesswork (and your ignoring of facts when it comes to the reduction of our fanbase does your argument no favours).

Right now, I don't see any benefit whatsoever to moving back to the Arena. That's not to say I'm happy with BM - there are massive, obvious flaws with the ground. But the flaws and pitfalls of the Arena are far greater and way more damaging.
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Vodka_Vic
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Re: Sports Village (latest)

Post by Vodka_Vic » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:51 am

Back in 2008? When Houghton put us into admin he said that break-even crowds at the Arena were minimum 5,000.

al_quaker
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Re: Sports Village (latest)

Post by al_quaker » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:57 am

Vodka_Vic wrote:Back in 2008? When Houghton put us into admin he said that break-even crowds at the Arena were minimum 5,000.
Not surprising considering the team we had!

And 2009 wasn't it? 07/08 Rochdale playoff defeat, 08/09 admin, 09/10 relegation from the football league. A lot has happened in the last 10 years or so..

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Re: Sports Village (latest)

Post by shawry » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:18 am

Yarblockos wrote:
super_les_mcjannet wrote:A 4G pitch at Mowden will have nothing to do with the football club and we won't see any benefit in finances for that reason.

The only benefit is that matches maybe on during some bad weather.

The negative is that if we did make it to the top of the conference, we would have no option to remove therefore couldn't participate in the Football League. However this is a moot point currently as we are not good enough or have the money to progress.

Also I think the main issue of the Arena is we can't have first shout on the pitch, unless something changes in those discussions.
It seems like we have three options:

Raise £5million for a new ground at the Sporting Village (Not going to happen)
Raise £2million to develop BM (Not going to happen)
Move to the Arena (not allowed back in the FL).

Given that option 1 and 2 are beyond us, this means we won't get back in the FL in any of the scenarios. So what is the loss of moving back to the Arena? This provides us with a greater source of income from corporate and hospitality. Financially, the Arena offers us more than the first two options. There is always the likelihood that 4G pitches will be allowed in the FL sooner or later.

Also, BM is a joke. One of the worst venues for watching football I've ever been too. Shallow stands, set far from the pitch, the view is terrible. I'd like to be at a ground where I could see what was happening.
Where do you stand so you can't see? Unless we are approaching capacity I've always been able to; and from the seats the view is excellent imho.

With regards to 4g, I don't understand the issue, she'd loads of us went to Harrogate to watch them, the game wasn't spoilt because it wasn't on grass!!

I'd go back to the arena, never had a problem there tbh, and it took a while to get out driving but a million times better than what we have now, and that's an important issue for me as I have to borrow time from work to go to the matches quite often so have to leave 10 minutes from the end

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Re: Sports Village (latest)

Post by MB86DFC » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:04 am

Darlogramps wrote:
MB86DFC wrote: Opposing fans laughing at us for playing in an empty venue, so what? They laugh at us anyway for being a failed league club stuck in this awful division. Primacy of tenure could be solved if both parties were motivated to do so, plenty of rugby and football teams have got passed this.
Except the only way it can be solved is if we negotiate it in our favour, otherwise it's pointless us moving back. Quite how we do that when we have no leverage ourselves is anyone's guess. What motivation is there for MP to give us a favourable primacy of tenure deal? None that I can see.

As for opposition fans, they don't laugh at us for being an ex-league club in the NLN at all. No one has ever seen that. Actually, our drive through non-league is one of the things that's helped repair our reputational damage. But they would laugh at us for being in the National League North with a Premier League-sized ground, which would only be 5-10% full.
MB86DFC wrote: I honestly don't think we would lose the support. As mentioned I know people who would come back, but it is all hypothetical


Marvellous, so beyond asking a few people you know (who may or may not exist) you can't back it up. Wonderful.

As for attendances at BM, we've seen that a decent run in the league, winning football can lift the mood and bring attendances up around 1500 to 1700 at BM. This is roughly what we got in our play-off chasing season that never was in 16/17. This is around the same as our final seasons at the Arena.

If we had a decent manager who could at least get us playing consistently and winning more regularly, that would be a start.
MB86DFC wrote: Sponsors would not turn away, they sponsor for the commercial benefit of their business. If there are crowds equal to what we have now they will still sponsor. We will still be the same fan owned club, a lot is different now than it was under Reynolds / Singh / Houghton so comparing the two businesses is misguided.
OK then, why aren't local businesses flocking to us now? It's hardly a secret we're fan-owned and back in the town. I can tell you why - because of the reputational damage of moving to an obviously oversized ground, the three administrations and so on. And as I've stated, any non-Darlo fan associates us with the Arena and the subsequent catastrophes there. Their first thought would be "Why are you moving back there, when it caused so much trouble last time?"

These sponsors we need to drive ourselves forward aren't going support us if we go back to where all the chaos began. They certainly didn't support us at the Arena a decade ago.
MB86DFC wrote: You're correct that I can't offer anything concrete to prove we would increase support, but you cannot offer proof to the contrary.
Of course I can't PROVE it because you're presenting an hypothetical future scenario. But what I can do is inform my opinion with facts. And the facts are our attendances plummeted at the Arena. More than half since we left Feethams. We had three administrations in nine seasons there, which in part can be attributed to the Arena itself. The increased running costs, the need for extra revenue to cover them, which was one reason for the overspending on the budget (to get us higher up the leagues and generating more revenue). And if MP went bust, as is a possibility, we'd be stuck with it.
Of course 10 year average crowds would be down after leaving Feethams as it was a much loved, well located ground with 2 Wembley appearances in the last 7 years of tenancy to boost attendances. Going to the Arena with all of the fan scepticism, merry-go round of rotten owners, administrations and relegation's would naturally push attendances down. This is a completely different scenario so your Feethams to Arena attendance statistic is not relevant.
I'm sorry, but you're just spouting bullshit now. Our declining attendances at the Arena in the past is perfectly relevant. To say otherwise is moronic. We had a winning Wembley visit while at the Arena. Better than anything we had at Feethams, yet it hardly brought about an increase in attendances.

We had 14,000 at the first Arena game, so people were hardly sceptical about trying it. But when they got there, they turned their back sharpish. They'd turn out for big games, but would rarely stay beyond that. And it goes without saying the ground was clearly a factor in that.

In less than a decade more than half our regular fanbase left us. That's not something that usually happens after a club moves venue. It just doesn't. Nowhere else has that happened after a club has moved venues within the same town.

So it's a perfectly relevant statistic. Fans didn't like the Arena, it's all there for everyone to see. I know it's massively inconvenient to your argument, but you can't ignore what's happened in the past at the Arena. If you do, you just look delusional.
MB86DFC wrote: Even if attendances at the Arena stay roughly the same as they would at BM it is a better position to be in as we don't have to spend millions on upgrades.
That depends entirely on the deal that gets negotiated. Who's to say it'll be any better than what we have at BM? By your own admission it's all hypothetical so your statement here has nothing to back it up.

I can just as easily say what if Northumbrian Water accept the cheaper idea for providing access to the pipe at BM loan_Star has suggested on other threads? That would be cheaper as it'd provide greater flexibility in terms of building around the pipe, allowing us to get up to standard quicker. It's hypothetical I know, but then so is everything you're suggesting.

What we do know is moving to the Arena would instantly plunge us into hundreds of thousands of debt, through having to pay back grant money. And if MP struggle with their finances, as well-placed posters on here are suggesting, then as you admit yourself, we'd be screwed.

Look, I'm perfectly fine with your opinion being we'd be better off at the Arena, but there's nothing to support that at all. At best, all you can offer is hypothetical guesswork (and your ignoring of facts when it comes to the reduction of our fanbase does your argument no favours).

Right now, I don't see any benefit whatsoever to moving back to the Arena. That's not to say I'm happy with BM - there are massive, obvious flaws with the ground. But the flaws and pitfalls of the Arena are far greater and way more damaging.

I've sent you a PM to continue this as I'm sure the regulars on the board will appreciate us not clogging it up with an endless debate.

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Re: Sports Village (latest)

Post by loan_star » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:58 pm

Darlogramps wrote:What we do know is moving to the Arena would instantly plunge us into hundreds of thousands of debt, through having to pay back grant money.
Unless the grants were guaranteed against BM and not DFC?
If so the owners of BM would be liable.

That doesn't mean I would be happy going to the arena though. Although its not perfect I prefer watching football in a reasonable sized ground for the level we are at or are likely to be at for the foreseeable future.

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Re: Sports Village (latest)

Post by spen666 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:12 pm

loan_star wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:What we do know is moving to the Arena would instantly plunge us into hundreds of thousands of debt, through having to pay back grant money.
Unless the grants were guaranteed against BM and not DFC?
If so the owners of BM would be liable.

....
The Grants are against the person awarded the grant, not against a venue.

This is what did for Newcastle Blue Star - they had grants for the Wheatsheaf Ground..then later moved to Kingston Park ( both venues they were tenants). The folded because they could not afford to repay the grants

At BM, I understand that some grants were awarded to DFC and some to DRFC ( eg from from RFU or Rugby related funds)


Its also relevant that the amount of the grant that needs to be repaid if the club moved is tapered over time, so not the full amount of grants would be repaid if club were to move today. Its realistically unlikely that any move will happen in short term, so at least a further period of tapering of the repayments would occur
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Re: Sports Village (latest)

Post by Yarblockos » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:26 pm

shawry wrote:Where do you stand so you can't see? Unless we are approaching capacity I've always been able to; and from the seats the view is excellent imho.
I don't mean literally being unable to see, I mean being unable to get a decent view of the play. You don't get that from pitch level, especially when play is at the other end of the pitch. You've also got the floodlights in front of the standing area on one side, plus there is a large gap between the stands and the touchline behind each goal. The gap wasn't a problem at the Arena because of the elevation, but the tinshed is very shallow. There is a reason the TV cameras go on the balcony.

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Re: Sports Village (latest)

Post by murtonquaker » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:53 pm

Yarblockos wrote:
jjljks wrote:In the unlikely event of us ever getting to the 3rd round of the FA Cup, then pulling out the hat a massive home draw, with potential 8000 crowd, could the match not be played at the Arena as a one-off? Don't need to respond to that as bookies would have us at millions to 1 although in which case a random £5 bet now would sort everything out for us without me doing the Euromillions.....
No, the FA put an end to clubs switching venues a few years ago. You have to play home games at your own ground. But if you want us to play big FA Cup ties at the Arena then you should support a move to the Arena!
FA Cup games can't be moved for pure financial gain, Farnborough, after beating us in the 3rd Round in 2003, drew Arsenal at Home in the following round at home and got the game moved to Highbury to cash in, which is when the FA stopped it happening again.

2 seasons later Newcastle drew Yeading United away and the game was switched to Lotus Road, apparantly for Safety Reasons, so I am guessing and I could very well be wrong, but I am sure games can be switched as a last resort

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Re: Sports Village (latest)

Post by Yarblockos » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:21 pm

murtonquaker wrote:FA Cup games can't be moved for pure financial gain, Farnborough, after beating us in the 3rd Round in 2003, drew Arsenal at Home in the following round at home and got the game moved to Highbury to cash in, which is when the FA stopped it happening again.

2 seasons later Newcastle drew Yeading United away and the game was switched to Lotus Road, apparantly for Safety Reasons, so I am guessing and I could very well be wrong, but I am sure games can be switched as a last resort

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It's not just rare cup games, it's not impossible that Hartlepool end up relegated to NLN (more likely than us going up). Imagine how much money we'd miss out on not being able to get more than 3000 in at BM. You could get 8,000 plus at the Arena for such a game. You're talking about missing out on £60,000 from a single match (there's the b2b covered). Imagine someone like Stockport or York coming here at the end of the season looking for promotion, when we can only sell them 700 tickets, you'd be losing out on 3,000 away fans. There may be reasons to argue against moving to the Arena, but financially it's by far the best option.

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Re: Sports Village (latest)

Post by poppyfield » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:03 pm

Yarblockos wrote:
murtonquaker wrote:FA Cup games can't be moved for pure financial gain, Farnborough, after beating us in the 3rd Round in 2003, drew Arsenal at Home in the following round at home and got the game moved to Highbury to cash in, which is when the FA stopped it happening again.

2 seasons later Newcastle drew Yeading United away and the game was switched to Lotus Road, apparantly for Safety Reasons, so I am guessing and I could very well be wrong, but I am sure games can be switched as a last resort

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It's not just rare cup games, it's not impossible that Hartlepool end up relegated to NLN (more likely than us going up). Imagine how much money we'd miss out on not being able to get more than 3000 in at BM. You could get 8,000 plus at the Arena for such a game. You're talking about missing out on £60,000 from a single match (there's the b2b covered). Imagine someone like Stockport or York coming here at the end of the season looking for promotion, when we can only sell them 700 tickets, you'd be losing out on 3,000 away fans. There may be reasons to argue against moving to the Arena, but financially it's by far the best option.
Its not to much of a stretch for us to be in contention for a promotion push, it could happen this season (unlikely I know) so we manage it this season or the next, so we then end up at the Arena on a 4G pitch, what then ? wait for the a York/Stockport big payday ? what do we spend the money on? players who know we can't get promoted with us. And why do you think we would get big crowds knowing we could not get promoted, would fans come to watch try and stop other teams been promoted, yes you could cater for more away fans, but again what would be the point.
Unless the 4G pitch issue can be sorted it would be wrong to go there.
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Re: Sports Village (latest)

Post by Yarblockos » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:39 pm

poppyfield wrote:Its not to much of a stretch for us to be in contention for a promotion push, it could happen this season (unlikely I know) so we manage it this season or the next, so we then end up at the Arena on a 4G pitch, what then ? wait for the a York/Stockport big payday ? what do we spend the money on? players who know we can't get promoted with us. And why do you think we would get big crowds knowing we could not get promoted, would fans come to watch try and stop other teams been promoted, yes you could cater for more away fans, but again what would be the point.
Unless the 4G pitch issue can be sorted it would be wrong to go there.
There is the possibility that the FL will allow 4G pitches, I think this will happen at some point in the future, but its not clear when. How does staying at BM improve on that? BM can not be upgraded to FL status without spending millions. Money we will never raise. If you stay at BM then we could not get promoted to the FL.

So tell me, why would fans come and watch us at BM when they know we can't get promoted?

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