Where we are after 25 league games

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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by Spyman » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:17 pm

lo36789 wrote:Thing is if Wright now turns things around and starts winning, with a team he has put together that is a better market than last season.

He took a while to get that team playing last season with an upturn in fortunes at the end. He took even longer for this group to start playing but admittedly along the way he lost a couple.

Maybe it does just take Tommy about 4 months to get a group playing as a team...guess we will find out over the next few months. Arguably keeping the group that go on that run together in the new season will have a fighting chance of starting where they left off...
Of course, there's a long way to go before we know that we've turned anything around. Home results have been good over Christmas but unless we maintain that over the next few months it'll count for little come the end of the season. It might keep us up, but if we're close to the bottom at the end of the season people won't want to back Wright.

Personally, if we finish mid-table this season I'd be willing to back Wright again. This might be foolish but if he shows he can learn from his mistakes (of which there's been many) then why not? He's a young manager and in the modern game, young managers get very few chances before they're written off.

Of course, if we end up in a relegation scrap with little sign of the cycle of the last 14 months ending, then I'll want us to look at our options.

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On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by Darlo_Pete » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:26 pm

We're steadily improving and the prospect of relegation has become much less likely than a month ago.

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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by Darlogramps » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:58 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:But it's not with the group he initially put together. He's needed loan players in order to bail himself out after the shambles of his summer recruitment.

Once the loan players go back, we're back where we were.
But he brought the loan players in - sorry can’t have it both ways. If TW gets us into or near the playoffs this season I am not sure there can be many lingering complaints.
Eh? That's not the point I'm making.

We've all said how we're after stability. Bringing loan players after you've screwed up a competitive budget isn't the sign of stability. He can bring in all the loan players he likes, he still screwed up in the summer, so why should he be trusted again? You can't say "He's good with loan players" if the permanent players he signs (who cost us the most) are utterly hopeless. There's only one of his signings this summer (Nicholson) who I'd say was a success.

And don't start banging on about play-offs. You just look ridiculous. We've had three good results in four. An improvement, but when you consider the whole season, it's been nowhere near good enough.
Personally, if we finish mid-table this season I'd be willing to back Wright again. This might be foolish but if he shows he can learn from his mistakes (of which there's been many) then why not? He's a young manager and in the modern game, young managers get very few chances before they're written off.
Can't agree here Spyman. Wright said this squad was better than last season's, while DJ said we have a budget competitive enough for the play-offs. Finishing in mid-table would be a failure. Moreover, I wouldn't trust Wright after his poor recruitment in the summer. Wright's had three chances in the modern game and under-performed in every single one at this level.
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Where we are after 25 league games

Post by Beano » Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:07 pm

Spyman wrote:
Personally, if we finish mid-table this season I'd be willing to back Wright again. This might be foolish but if he shows he can learn from his mistakes (of which there's been many) then why not? He's a young manager and in the modern game, young managers get very few chances before they're written off.

Of course, if we end up in a relegation scrap with little sign of the cycle of the last 14 months ending, then I'll want us to look at our options.

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The vast majority I speak to at games agree with this.

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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by H1987 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:50 pm

Darlo2807 wrote:
H1987 wrote:
super_les_mcjannet wrote:
H1987 wrote: 1,242 (this season, minus the York game)

1,528 (Last season, minus the York, Spenny & Harrogate games)
If you remove York from this season we are on 1,350 in the league currently.
If you remove York, Spenny & Harrogate from last season league and use the whole season without them 3 then it's 1,357.

As you say end of season will tell, I reckon we will be about 100 down on last season, which considering isn't too bad and not a mass reduction of support considering we are on our 2nd challenging season in NLN.
I've just done that again and came out with 1,242 for this year (i'm blaming a slip on the calculator for that), and the same for last year. I'm using the figures of this site, and excluding cups? Of course, that means only an average of ten games from last year, and an average from 13 for this, so that's sort of a product of the different schedules.

Anyway, you can sort of look at individual games and there isn't a huge difference for the run of the mill games. The notable difference is that attendances for average games were higher at the beginning of last season, before the form went to hell. We drew in nearly 1.7k for Gainsborough in midweek, 1.55 against Alfeton, 1.5 against Telford...). Of course, we were just coming off making the playoffs (albeit, of course, not being able to compete in them). Also, the Stockport game provided a large attendance, but was midweek this year, which will have knocked it, particularly the number of travelling fans. Of course, you have to factor how horrible we have generally been at home under TW, which will have had a knock on effect on attendances.

To completely state the obvious;

Winning on the field & attractive fixtures = larger crowds
Bad home form / form in general & less attractive fixures = smaller crowds

I don't think we're in imminent danger of losing any more fans, but we're not exactly bringing the lapsed ones back either; but we have taken tentative steps in the right direction.
Being quite pedantic here but Stockport was on a Saturday
You're right. My bad memory, that one. Thing is, i'll have looked at it when I totted up the attendances :oops:

Possibly illustrates the drop off a little more.

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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by H1987 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:59 pm

Oh, and as for Wright. Jury is out. We've had a momentary turn around, but it seemed almost desperation, when using the loan market is something he should have been doing anyway.

I'd be very happy with mid table at the end of the season, but TW needs to show he's worth another year (I'll assume his contract would be renewed annually at this point). Right now, my view would be thank you, no hard feelings, but we leave it there, reputations relatively intact.

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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by AndyPark » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:08 pm

Darlo2807 wrote:
H1987 wrote:
super_les_mcjannet wrote:
H1987 wrote: 1,242 (this season, minus the York game)

1,528 (Last season, minus the York, Spenny & Harrogate games)
If you remove York from this season we are on 1,350 in the league currently.
If you remove York, Spenny & Harrogate from last season league and use the whole season without them 3 then it's 1,357.

As you say end of season will tell, I reckon we will be about 100 down on last season, which considering isn't too bad and not a mass reduction of support considering we are on our 2nd challenging season in NLN.
I've just done that again and came out with 1,242 for this year (i'm blaming a slip on the calculator for that), and the same for last year. I'm using the figures of this site, and excluding cups? Of course, that means only an average of ten games from last year, and an average from 13 for this, so that's sort of a product of the different schedules.

Anyway, you can sort of look at individual games and there isn't a huge difference for the run of the mill games. The notable difference is that attendances for average games were higher at the beginning of last season, before the form went to hell. We drew in nearly 1.7k for Gainsborough in midweek, 1.55 against Alfeton, 1.5 against Telford...). Of course, we were just coming off making the playoffs (albeit, of course, not being able to compete in them). Also, the Stockport game provided a large attendance, but was midweek this year, which will have knocked it, particularly the number of travelling fans. Of course, you have to factor how horrible we have generally been at home under TW, which will have had a knock on effect on attendances.

To completely state the obvious;

Winning on the field & attractive fixtures = larger crowds
Bad home form / form in general & less attractive fixures = smaller crowds

I don't think we're in imminent danger of losing any more fans, but we're not exactly bringing the lapsed ones back either; but we have taken tentative steps in the right direction.
Being quite pedantic here but Stockport was on a Saturday
Stuckports away support is absolutely pathetic.
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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by Spyman » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:14 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
lo36789 wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:But it's not with the group he initially put together. He's needed loan players in order to bail himself out after the shambles of his summer recruitment.

Once the loan players go back, we're back where we were.
But he brought the loan players in - sorry can’t have it both ways. If TW gets us into or near the playoffs this season I am not sure there can be many lingering complaints.
Eh? That's not the point I'm making.

We've all said how we're after stability. Bringing loan players after you've screwed up a competitive budget isn't the sign of stability. He can bring in all the loan players he likes, he still screwed up in the summer, so why should he be trusted again? You can't say "He's good with loan players" if the permanent players he signs (who cost us the most) are utterly hopeless. There's only one of his signings this summer (Nicholson) who I'd say was a success.

And don't start banging on about play-offs. You just look ridiculous. We've had three good results in four. An improvement, but when you consider the whole season, it's been nowhere near good enough.
Personally, if we finish mid-table this season I'd be willing to back Wright again. This might be foolish but if he shows he can learn from his mistakes (of which there's been many) then why not? He's a young manager and in the modern game, young managers get very few chances before they're written off.
Can't agree here Spyman. Wright said this squad was better than last season's, while DJ said we have a budget competitive enough for the play-offs. Finishing in mid-table would be a failure. Moreover, I wouldn't trust Wright after his poor recruitment in the summer. Wright's had three chances in the modern game and under-performed in every single one at this level.
I do get that side of the argument, yes. But perhaps he has a chance over the next four months to show he's learned some lessons.then is he worth another shot? People can improve at their jobs - although football rarely allows for this.

Of course, we need to see some kind of consistent improvement for this to be the case.

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On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by grimsbyquaker » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:11 pm

Maybe the budget wasn’t as competitive as we were led to believe? Maybe it was talk designed to get bums on seats? How is competitive actually measured anyway? Transfer fees? Wages?
I presume signing Ainge has been pretty expensive. He was a ‘statement’ signing that most on here were excited about, me included. He is proven at this level and has physical presence and a decent goal scoring pedigree. That it hasn’t quite worked out could not really have been predicted, surely. Also did that figure include fees/wages already laid out eg on Caton/Collins?
I have time for the Nuneaton lads, less so for Burn and also Maddison to an extent (both have not looked like players with FL attributes. Maybe we were spoilt by Pears who, let’s face it, was the GK equivalent of Nelson. I also think that it must be hard to achieve any real system/fluency with part time lads, especially if you see them twice a week either side of lots of travel.
Don’t all managers/chairman talk about the playoffs as being the goal, when in reality there’s only a limited number of berths. Maybe coming out and proclaiming mid table mediocrity/consolidation etc wouldn’t have gone down well among those fans who still think we’ll be a FL side soon

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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by divas » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:54 pm

grimsbyquaker wrote: I presume signing Ainge has been pretty expensive. He was a ‘statement’ signing that most on here were excited about, me included. He is proven at this level and has physical presence and a decent goal scoring pedigree. That it hasn’t quite worked out could not really have been predicted, surely.
A quick look at the blokes waistline and the fact he’d done nothing since a pretty serious injury would have given some clue. As fans all we had to look at was his stats on paper. You’d hope TW might have dug further. Same with Hughes really, although he’s got lucky with how he’s slotted in at the back he’s still nowhere near the shape he needs to be in to play in the position he was signed.

Here’s what Ainge looked like when he was scoring for fun at Harrogate. He’s been an absolute waste of money and the only way we might be able to salvage anything is if he reverts to defence.

Image

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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by lo36789 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:11 pm

Ainge could always get fit again...

Look I’m not saying things have turned around - we’ve beaten an out of sorts York side who got rid of their manager after, a poor Ashton side who will surely get relegated and an out of sorts Kidderminster side who also got rid of their manager. We got battered in the middle of that for good measure.

Jury will be permanently out on Wright ultimately as it will be on any manager but at the end of the day if he does mantain a run of form you have to give him credit for it but there are already excuses being made not to give him any credit “got lucky with loans”, “got lucky with team selection” etc.

Right now feels like there is breathing space though and maybe it’s a time to just actually support him and see what happens.

As I believed all along I don’t think we will be relegated this season - yet some people believed this to be an inevitability not so long ago.

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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by super_les_mcjannet » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:15 pm

I know you don’t make that many games Lo and genuinely it looked bad, we had no attacking threat and we were losing players like Styche and Syers. The performances were also terrible and the manager, players and fans were all going through the motions.

Hopefully this spell has changed things around but we are capable of falling apart, hopefully we push further up the league with more good results.

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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by lo36789 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:36 am

Indeed - reason to be hopeful...

It’s nice to see that we’ve actually won at home as well - hopefully that should inspire people to turn up but I guess we will see!

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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by MKDarlo » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:08 pm

lo36789 wrote:Ainge could always get fit again...

Look I’m not saying things have turned around - we’ve beaten an out of sorts York side who got rid of their manager after, a poor Ashton side who will surely get relegated and an out of sorts Kidderminster side who also got rid of their manager. We got battered in the middle of that for good measure.

Jury will be permanently out on Wright ultimately as it will be on any manager but at the end of the day if he does mantain a run of form you have to give him credit for it but there are already excuses being made not to give him any credit “got lucky with loans”, “got lucky with team selection” etc.

Right now feels like there is breathing space though and maybe it’s a time to just actually support him and see what happens.

As I believed all along I don’t think we will be relegated this season - yet some people believed this to be an inevitability not so long ago.
Agreed, although I still have relgation concerns. I Also still have concerns about Wright ( tactics, formation, work rate, fitness, player acquisition & retention) but still think he is a good bloke who wants to do well for us. I am just not convinced he can.

I still believe many people give him extra rope because he is an ex player and overlook his obvious faults because of this. I give him credit for the recent good run ( just as i give him flack for the bad runs) but to my mind the performance at York shows how skin deep the improvement has been.

Alfreton are in a similar position to us and being skeptical about the quality and depth of our revival think this will be a good and tough away test. Take a battling point there and I might be more charitable towards Wright.

BTW Styche, obviously, will score against us!

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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by H1987 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:33 pm

divas wrote:
grimsbyquaker wrote: I presume signing Ainge has been pretty expensive. He was a ‘statement’ signing that most on here were excited about, me included. He is proven at this level and has physical presence and a decent goal scoring pedigree. That it hasn’t quite worked out could not really have been predicted, surely.
A quick look at the blokes waistline and the fact he’d done nothing since a pretty serious injury would have given some clue. As fans all we had to look at was his stats on paper. You’d hope TW might have dug further. Same with Hughes really, although he’s got lucky with how he’s slotted in at the back he’s still nowhere near the shape he needs to be in to play in the position he was signed.

Here’s what Ainge looked like when he was scoring for fun at Harrogate. He’s been an absolute waste of money and the only way we might be able to salvage anything is if he reverts to defence.

Image
This, a million times. I think it's unacceptable for them to be so chronically unfit. What exactly are Ainge and Hughes eating? They're, presumably, doing intensive training twice a week, and playing a game of football on a weekend. That's way more exercise than i do, i possibly drink more than i should, and I think i'm thinner than the pair of them (albeit it's probably close). I'm also older than them.

I know everyone is slightly different, but you have to be putting some serious calories away to get to that sort of shape, whilst doing that amount of exercise. I just think it's completely unacceptable for athletes who are paid to play to be in the shape they are, and they're probably two of the higher paid players at the club. It should be addressed immediately, and its a key part of their performance.

Hughes has massively impressed me at the back, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be shedding that weight. The pair of them look like their shirts don't fit them. Not a good look.

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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by sue_donym » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:57 pm

Find this argument that Wright 'failed' in the summer recruitment and can't take credit for loan signings completely baffling.

Firstly it's questionable whether he 'failed' with his signings. So far he has three successes in Nicholson, Elliott and Hughes. Three failures in Henshall, Ainge and Burn. Don't really know where to put Maddison, he's been largely competent but made some mistakes as any young lad will at this level. Roughly 50/50 hit rate, bit higher if you take into account other players he has brought in albeit not in the summer that have been good like Trotman and O'Hanlon. That's perfectly respectable - no manager has a 100% record on signings and plenty have a far worse track record than 50% working out.

As for Ainge I really don't think that you can absolve the player of blame for his form. TW got him in because with his track record at this level he should have been fairly close to a sure thing to grab goals for us. He's not done it because he's either been injured or been too unfit to make much of an impression. Not TW's fault that the bloke's not professional enough to get into shape, either because of these injuries or otherwise.

Now given that the squad has had to be trimmed and was paper thin, and that Ainge isn't pulling his weight (and Collins never pulled his weight, don't forget TW probably counted on him playing more of a role), he has turned to the loan market, and brought in some excellent players. It's called adapting to circumstances, and our form has turned around.

We're going to finish mid-table this season. That's about right. You can argue we're slightly above mid-table in terms of attendances and therefore budget but that would be to ignore the fact that many with smaller attendances are bankrolled and can offer players far more money than us. Those that are saying we should jettison Wright after that better have an extremely good idea of who is going to come in and do a better job, why they're better.

I'm not saying there should be no scrutiny applied to management team and he's definitely made mistakes. But we're on a good run of form and there's some optimism returning to the place for the first time in a while. Can we now please stop banging on about Wright for a bit.

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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:24 pm

Good post Sue.

Wright also brought in Heaton and Styche - 2 players that were subsequently moved on for a profit.
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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by Darlogramps » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:04 pm

sue_donym wrote:Find this argument that Wright 'failed' in the summer recruitment and can't take credit for loan signings completely baffling.

Firstly it's questionable whether he 'failed' with his signings. So far he has three successes in Nicholson, Elliott and Hughes. Three failures in Henshall, Ainge and Burn. Don't really know where to put Maddison, he's been largely competent but made some mistakes as any young lad will at this level. Roughly 50/50 hit rate, bit higher if you take into account other players he has brought in albeit not in the summer that have been good like Trotman and O'Hanlon. That's perfectly respectable - no manager has a 100% record on signings and plenty have a far worse track record than 50% working out.
First, Elliott isn't a success at all, not in the same way Nicholson is. He's not been terrible but I fail to see how he can be described as a surefire hit. Is Hughes a success? Some will say yes, but if you remember Wright signed him to be a midfielder, ditched him, then moved him to CB in an emergency, it certainly suggests more luck than judgement. And let's be fair, his defending can cause palpitations at times too. Jury is out for me.

So in my opinion that's one in six. Not quite as good. As for Trotman and O'Hanlon - neither of them have hit the heights of last season. So does one good half of the season, then one average half of the season make you a "good" signing. Not for me. O'Hanlon's been dropped in favour of Kokolo, so he hasn't been doing that well.

Moreover, TW clearly wasn't getting the most of his players, given we were just above the relegation zone. TW got the balance wrong in the summer, hence our struggles and need to bring in loan players.
Now given that the squad has had to be trimmed and was paper thin, and that Ainge isn't pulling his weight (and Collins never pulled his weight, don't forget TW probably counted on him playing more of a role), he has turned to the loan market, and brought in some excellent players. It's called adapting to circumstances, and our form has turned around.
Why aren't players pulling their weight? Surely part of the manager's job is to motivate the players too. I won't deny players have a responsibility, but at the same time saying TW has no role whatsoever would be incorrect.

As for bringing in loan players - again he has made some decent signings here. But again, it suggests the summer didn't go well. Why was he so reluctant to make loan signings in the first place? Why not do it in the summer?

It's just as easy to describe it as "bailing himself out" rather than "adapting to circumstances".
We're going to finish mid-table this season. That's about right. Those that are saying we should jettison Wright after that better have an extremely good idea of who is going to come in and do a better job, why they're better.
Eh? TW and DJ both said we should be competing in and around the play-offs. Mid-table would be below expectations and certainly "not about right" at all. Why keep a manager who under-performs?

As for replacement, there's loads we could go for. Hardy, McGurk, R.Moore, C.Moore, Flanagan. There are more. All would be better than TW, and would in my opinion get more out of a comparatively small squad with a lower budget.

The myth that no one could achieve more than TW has previously been shot down.
Can we now please stop banging on about Wright for a bit.
No. ;)
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Wright also brought in Heaton and Styche - 2 players that were subsequently moved on for a profit.
Styche wasn't sold for a profit. And MG was the person who initially wanted to sign Heaton, but he got injured in pre-season.
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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by Vodka_Vic » Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:34 pm

Gramps, I know R.Moore is Ronnie Moore, but who is C.Moore ta?

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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by banktopp » Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:49 pm

Vodka_Vic wrote:Gramps, I know R.Moore is Ronnie Moore, but who is C.Moore ta?
I think I can answer that. It's Christy Moore, founder member of Irish band Planxty
and a very good right half in his day.

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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by grimsbyquaker » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:23 pm

That photo of Ainge just shows someone of stocky build but you can’t say he’s fat/overweight. He’s not in the same league at Hughes on that front, nowhere near. Henshall, again, has pedigree but things haven’t worked out. This is life in NLN I think. I think we can progress from here to a mid-table finish. I’d be happy with that. The prospect of promotion at this stage terrifies me as much as a return to the NPL

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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by divas » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:38 pm

Vodka_Vic wrote:Gramps, I know R.Moore is Ronnie Moore, but who is C.Moore ta?
Presumably former Darlo player Chris Moore who is managing Consett these days. He may well go on to have a good career but suggesting he’d be in a position to take over here and be less of a risk than TW is laughable. He doesn’t have his UEFA A license for a start.

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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by divas » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:40 pm

grimsbyquaker wrote:That photo of Ainge just shows someone of stocky build but you can’t say he’s fat/overweight. He’s not in the same league at Hughes on that front, nowhere near. Henshall, again, has pedigree but things haven’t worked out. This is life in NLN I think. I think we can progress from here to a mid-table finish. I’d be happy with that. The prospect of promotion at this stage terrifies me as much as a return to the NPL
That photo shows Ainge in his prime when he was scoring. My point was that was him in shape. He looks nothing like that at the moment

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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by lo36789 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:30 pm

divas wrote:
Vodka_Vic wrote:Gramps, I know R.Moore is Ronnie Moore, but who is C.Moore ta?
Presumably former Darlo player Chris Moore who is managing Consett these days. He may well go on to have a good career but suggesting he’d be in a position to take over here and be less of a risk than TW is laughable. He doesn’t have his UEFA A license for a start.
I’m not really sure I see Ronnie Moore coming to us for a price we could afford either to be honest. I thought he liked to have funds (or at least a promise of funds) behind him as well usually?

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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by Darlogramps » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:32 pm

divas wrote:
Vodka_Vic wrote:Gramps, I know R.Moore is Ronnie Moore, but who is C.Moore ta?
Presumably former Darlo player Chris Moore who is managing Consett these days. He may well go on to have a good career but suggesting he’d be in a position to take over here and be less of a risk than TW is laughable. He doesn’t have his UEFA A license for a start.
I didn't say he'd be less of a risk. I said I think he'd do better, which is different.

He would absolutely be a risk, but so would keeping TW given his 15 months of mediocrity.

As for Ronnie Moore lo, he wouldn't be my choice but the question was name possible replacements. No reason why his name can't be thrown into the mix at the very least. The idea there's no one out there who is realistic and could do a better job than TW is a myth.

But the wider point was the suggestion there's no one who would be able to do better than TW. I think there are plenty of people out there who would.
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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by TDS » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:58 am

Darlogramps wrote:I didn't say he'd be less of a risk. I said I think he'd do better, which is different.
No you said:
Darlogramps wrote:As for replacement, there's loads we could go for. Hardy, McGurk, R.Moore, C.Moore, Flanagan. There are more. All would be better than TW......
Zero facts getting in the way of that one. On a personal note I’d take Flanagan but wouldn’t be over the moon with any of the others. Hardy came for a chat and McGurk turned us down once he saw the cost cutting required. Fair enough.
Darlogramps wrote: But the wider point was the suggestion there's no one who would be able to do better than TW. I think there are plenty of people out there who would.
I think the suggestion was let’s take a more practical approach to the situation we find ourselves in. Is it wrong to suggest we are up against it in terms of budget constraints? Nope, would apply no matter who you brought in. Is it wrong to suggest losing your talisman striker would be the difference between mid-table and playoffs? Nope, most would agree. Has TW been a bit hamstrung by Caton, Collins, Burgess all on long expensive contracts that we’ve still not fully absolved from the budget? Absolutely. Things that would be half his responsibility but would still impact his ability to compete are Hughes and Ainge weight issues (at this level you need the players to take accountability for themselves 75% of the time) along with Burn and Maddison not performing as expected (not sure many would suggest two players from the FL would be as underwhelming, although I still think both have enough to come good). Can we really throw the line the players aren’t playing for TW still? I saw none of that over Xmas.

I don’t think many people are sat here thinking TW is the manager we all want, but there’s a bigger picture and now we need to tread carefully. The role is not your average manager role and the leg work is largely down to the manager. The Academy is a long-term project and would somebody else be interested? Compared to MG, TW has a skeleton backroom staff, this is another consideration.

I guess the overriding point is it cannot simply be about “DJ said playoffs, we aren’t in the playoffs = sack him”. One thing I do admire TW for is in the face of adversity he does not waiver. He’s made it all about “the lads” and given them credit when sometimes he could be a little more proud. He's also never complained about money (something MG did with complete disregard for the Club).

The weird obsession with taking all positives away from TW (loan singings, Heaton, recent form) is more in line with a chip on the shoulder as opposed to being objective. He has failings, some he might overcome, some he might not. Ignoring the positives is just as bad as the head-in-the-sand happy clappers.
Ultimately, we will not be sacking him this season and there has been a counter-productive attitude building lately which we cannot afford. Let’s pull together in the same direction under the blatantly obvious fact that nothing is changing soon.

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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:37 am

The bottom line is that 7-9-9 in the league is shite.

Yes form has picked up in the last 4 matches, but it needs to remain improved for a lot longer and that record this season needs to show more wins than defeats - minimum - before some fans will start to trust TW again.

If he can turn it around to that extent then you could say he's earned it by then, but at the moment it's all ifs and buts.

On our day, we have proven that we can beat anyone, and play good football. The trouble is that we are just as capable of throwing away a lead, losing to rubbish teams, and of looking completely clueless.

We are definitely capable of gaining 10 points from the next 5 matches, but to be honest it's just as likely we will lose 4 of the 5 and be back in the doldrums.

Until that fear can be erased, then people are going to be nervous of TW's talents - I mean, what's coming next? We just don't know!
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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by eddie-rowles » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:24 am

I would approach Robbie Stockdale as manager and see if Sunderland would let him work part time, great coach, great contacts and he would blow TW out of the water regards turning up for training.

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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by divas » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:01 pm

eddie-rowles wrote:I would approach Robbie Stockdale as manager and see if Sunderland would let him work part time, great coach, great contacts and he would blow TW out of the water regards turning up for training.
As far as I’m aware Stockdale was let go by Sunderland shortly after Jack Ross was appointed and he’s currently out of work. I agree if we needed a new manager Stockdale would definitely be on my shortlist

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Re: Where we are after 25 league games

Post by H1987 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:29 pm

Yeah, Stockdale has been released. I'd hope we're in a better financial state by the time next season rolls around, if we've erased the debt by then. If not, then the year after.

Perhaps TW has been handed a tough job, and difficult circumstances after Gray, but that doesn't erase some poor decision making, the lack of organisation, and many of the other concerns that 3 wins in 4 games may have whitewashed slightly.

I generally support giving our managers time, but there's been a few things that have set alarm bells ringing during Wrights tenure, and right now i'd be nervous about giving him any more time. I'm not entirely convinced I think he is the man to get us much further. Indeed, i'd be worried he might take us backwards. His recruitment has been very hit and miss, and the refusal to use the loan market until absolute desperation point infuriating.

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