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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:26 am 
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And that seems reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:27 am 
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Good explanation Mikky. I guess the issue here is really therefore unclear communication. On his leaving statement it should have read 'Was unpaid apart from a commercial role he took on'.


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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:13 am 
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Vodka_Vic wrote:
Good explanation Mikky. I guess the issue here is really therefore unclear communication. On his leaving statement it should have read 'Was unpaid apart from a commercial role he took on'.


Agree this seems to be a communication issue rather than anything sinister. Assuming the payment was in relation to the commercial role it might have been even better to announce it at the time it started.


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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:09 pm 
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Insinuations here are ridiculous. If people wanted a post on the clubs website prior to this being released then fair enough (just).

If people are questioning why he's resigned prior to this being released or if he now all of a sudden doesn't deserve the volunteer award then I'm afraid it's a proper dick move.

Some people :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:27 pm 
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I think Mikky, and others who have said similar, are probably right. I think/hope that this £10,500 is a % slice of £50k-£100k of commercial revenue brought in across one financial year.

I don’t have any beef with people making money for making their organisation money and I really hope that Craig Morley gets the opportunity to make regular bonuses whilst with DFC, as the implication would be that he would have made the club a decent amount of money in that time.

But as I allude to above, as a Company Director myself, if I hit my personal annual commercial target (entitling me to a bonus), but others didn’t and the company made a tiny profit, broke even or made a loss, I would not take that bonus. Contractually, if my company did break even at best, I wouldn’t even be given the choice and we included this within our employment contracts to safeguard the business long term.

Morally it wouldn’t be right (IMO) and also I’m smart enough to recognise the longer term benefits of having a stake in a healthy business over the short-term hit of taking money out of something that is already struggling.

And that’s my point/beef with this.

I’m sure the £10,500 is all fair game and has been rightfully earned as per an agreement/contract, *but*, given the state of the club’s finances and that – as a Director – there is a responsibility to safeguard the organisation moving forward, I’d morally question taking that bonus.

I’m not criticising John’s work nor doubting all of the free stuff he will have done for DFC, but I am questioning that particular point and would say the same about anyone taking money from the club in a similar fashion. Again, my opinion only.

I absolutely get the theory that we have to pay a salary to someone whose job it is to increase revenue (ie, we would miss out on 'X' revenue by not paying someone 'Y'), as long as – no sh1t sherlock – that person pays for themselves *at the very least* and isn’t part of a scheme that pays them a bonus to the detriment of the business.

If so, you’d have to question motives, long term stability and where that leaves all of the folk who do important (on the face of it) non-revenue generating work without ever receiving a dime.

But if folk are fine with all of that, then no problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:03 pm 
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It's time to drop this now, Mr tempest has done an admiral job for our football club and is throughly honest guy, four years of struggle and all that went with it, stress, foul-mouthed abuse,hours put in, unsociable hours at that, all detrimental to his own private business, and you get this drivel, I ask you is it really worthwhile anyone coming forward to help the football club. Let's stop this now.
Enough damage has been done already.


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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:14 pm 
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beatroute66 wrote:
I think Mikky, and others who have said similar, are probably right. I think/hope that this £10,500 is a % slice of £50k-£100k of commercial revenue brought in across one financial year.

I don’t have any beef with people making money for making their organisation money and I really hope that Craig Morley gets the opportunity to make regular bonuses whilst with DFC, as the implication would be that he would have made the club a decent amount of money in that time.

But as I allude to above, as a Company Director myself, if I hit my personal annual commercial target (entitling me to a bonus), but others didn’t and the company made a tiny profit, broke even or made a loss, I would not take that bonus. Contractually, if my company did break even at best, I wouldn’t even be given the choice and we included this within our employment contracts to safeguard the business long term.

Morally it wouldn’t be right (IMO) and also I’m smart enough to recognise the longer term benefits of having a stake in a healthy business over the short-term hit of taking money out of something that is already struggling.

And that’s my point/beef with this.

I’m sure the £10,500 is all fair game and has been rightfully earned as per an agreement/contract, *but*, given the state of the club’s finances and that – as a Director – there is a responsibility to safeguard the organisation moving forward, I’d morally question taking that bonus.

I’m not criticising John’s work nor doubting all of the free stuff he will have done for DFC, but I am questioning that particular point and would say the same about anyone taking money from the club in a similar fashion. Again, my opinion only.

I absolutely get the theory that we have to pay a salary to someone whose job it is to increase revenue (ie, we would miss out on 'X' revenue by not paying someone 'Y'), as long as – no sh1t sherlock – that person pays for themselves *at the very least* and isn’t part of a scheme that pays them a bonus to the detriment of the business.

If so, you’d have to question motives, long term stability and where that leaves all of the folk who do important (on the face of it) non-revenue generating work without ever receiving a dime.

But if folk are fine with all of that, then no problem.


But it's not a bonus, is it? It's commission. Would you not accept your monthly pay? No. The commercial job, which we are assuming this was relative too, paid commission, so you're arguing oranges and apples.


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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:22 pm 
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HarryCharltonsCat wrote:
But it's not a bonus, is it? It's commission. Would you not accept your monthly pay? No. The commercial job, which we are assuming this was relative too, paid commission, so you're arguing oranges and apples.


Bonus/commission - semantics at the end of the day.

Of course I wouldn't accept not getting my monthly pay. I need to live. My job isn't a voluntary one and neither is John's job in recruitment. You're arguing apples/oranges.

Happy to be out of step on this one if that's the case, just as I am with the folk who think it's fair game to tell him, DJ and their wives to "f**k off" post-game because they won't sack Wright after another defeat, those who want MG back or those who berated Styche for leaving when he didn't want to.

Fair play to John for everything did. I'm grateful. I just wouldn't have taken the £10k and I'm not really interested in what other folk think of that.


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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:41 pm 
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It's not semantics if a post is commission only - that's pay not bonus. The commercial job wasn't a voluntary post either. No suggestion he was paid for his Director role, which was voluntary.

Each to their own - I have no qualms with this, but am on the same page as regards the rest of your views.


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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:47 pm 
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HarryCharltonsCat wrote:
It's not semantics if a post is commission only - that's pay not bonus. The commercial job wasn't a voluntary post either. No suggestion he was paid for his Director role, which was voluntary.

Each to their own - I have no qualms with this, but am on the same page as regards the rest of your views.


Thank you - no worries.


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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:56 pm 
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beatroute66 wrote:

I absolutely get the theory that we have to pay a salary to someone whose job it is to increase revenue (ie, we would miss out on 'X' revenue by not paying someone 'Y'), as long as – no sh1t sherlock – that person pays for themselves *at the very least* and isn’t part of a scheme that pays them a bonus to the detriment of the business.


But he's not taken a salary. He's been paid this bonus/commission to presumably cover his own costs at time which he has taken away from his own business.

Perhaps he could've made £20k from his own business over this period, but lost out on those earnings to give time to getting £100k worth of business for DFC over the line. If he'd not given up that time he could be better off and the club worse off.

So in effect it looks like he's been given 10k because he's done a significant amount to reduce any losses the club has made, and probably at some expense to himself. I don't see how anyone can have a problem with that, albeit it could have been communicated better.

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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:02 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:21 pm 
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Spyman wrote:
But he's not taken a salary. He's been paid this bonus/commission to presumably cover his own costs at time which he has taken away from his own business.


Oh, I was talking about Craig Morley at that point in terms of moving forward (apologies for not being clear).

And I get everything else you say - it evidently wasn't communicated properly previously (unless I and others missed it...) and it's my view that that £10k should have stayed with the club.

Just my view.


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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:45 pm 
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In other respects, current 'real time' financial plight aside, the latest set of accounts make for decent reading – t/over is up £214k, GP is up £82k and the operating loss figure is down by £85k from 2017.

Matchday income is up £3k, transfer fees received are up £62k as is ‘miscellaneous income’ by £167k. Unfortunately commercial income is down by £11k and retail/merch by £8k. Clearly not for the want of trying on anyone’s behalf.

Cost of sales has gone up, mind, by £131k – playing staff costs are up £105k, matchday costs are up £36k, legal/professional fees are up £40k and there are £5k of ‘sundry expenses’ that weren’t there in 2017.

I note donations were at £157k and lottery income at just over £18k. Fair play to everyone.


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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:49 pm 
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beatroute66 wrote:
Spyman wrote:
But he's not taken a salary. He's been paid this bonus/commission to presumably cover his own costs at time which he has taken away from his own business.


Oh, I was talking about Craig Morley at that point in terms of moving forward (apologies for not being clear).

And I get everything else you say - it evidently wasn't communicated properly previously (unless I and others missed it...) and it's my view that that £10k should have stayed with the club.

Just my view.


The club did advertise for people to take on for Commercial work at a commission basis, can't remember exactly when but within the last two years. That doesn't explain why the club didn't announce that Tempest was taking this on, whilst no one else had applied.

Also doesn't confirm the Virgin Train deal as that was over two years ago, I would assume Tempest agreed a deal in advance of the Virgin Train deal if he has used this in his explanation.

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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:00 pm 
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beatroute66 wrote:
In other respects, current 'real time' financial plight aside, the latest set of accounts make for decent reading – t/over is up £214k, GP is up £82k and the operating loss figure is down by £85k from 2017.

Matchday income is up £3k, transfer fees received are up £62k as is ‘miscellaneous income’ by £167k. Unfortunately commercial income is down by £11k and retail/merch by £8k. Clearly not for the want of trying on anyone’s behalf.

Cost of sales has gone up, mind, by £131k – playing staff costs are up £105k, matchday costs are up £36k, legal/professional fees are up £40k and there are £5k of ‘sundry expenses’ that weren’t there in 2017.

I note donations were at £157k and lottery income at just over £18k. Fair play to everyone.


Turnover is up as it includes the funding for the new stand I believe, this maybe down as donations.
Gross Profit is up largely due to the miscellaneous income, which I believe it the money for the seated stand again.

In all honesty the accounts should have a commentary on each line item, back to being open and honest. Would even be good to look at some predictions for this year also - or am I expecting too much and this should just be kept to the boards?

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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:53 pm 
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super_les_mcjannet wrote:
beatroute66 wrote:
In other respects, current 'real time' financial plight aside, the latest set of accounts make for decent reading – t/over is up £214k, GP is up £82k and the operating loss figure is down by £85k from 2017.

Matchday income is up £3k, transfer fees received are up £62k as is ‘miscellaneous income’ by £167k. Unfortunately commercial income is down by £11k and retail/merch by £8k. Clearly not for the want of trying on anyone’s behalf.

Cost of sales has gone up, mind, by £131k – playing staff costs are up £105k, matchday costs are up £36k, legal/professional fees are up £40k and there are £5k of ‘sundry expenses’ that weren’t there in 2017.

I note donations were at £157k and lottery income at just over £18k. Fair play to everyone.


Turnover is up as it includes the funding for the new stand I believe, this maybe down as donations.
Gross Profit is up largely due to the miscellaneous income, which I believe it the money for the seated stand again.

In all honesty the accounts should have a commentary on each line item, back to being open and honest. Would even be good to look at some predictions for this year also - or am I expecting too much and this should just be kept to the boards?

We have often questioned/debated on here how much rent we pay DRC. Isn't the answer in the accounts under "Rent & Rates" shows £41,841 up from £38,548 in 2017? Not sure if this would include any other "Services" we pay DRC for?
Also am surprised to see "Travelling Expenses" drop to £16,1122 from £21,024 given we have a Midlands based Manager and a number of players. Unless their salaries include an amount for Travelling expenses?


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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:25 pm 
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super_les_mcjannet wrote:
beatroute66 wrote:
Spyman wrote:
But he's not taken a salary. He's been paid this bonus/commission to presumably cover his own costs at time which he has taken away from his own business.


Oh, I was talking about Craig Morley at that point in terms of moving forward (apologies for not being clear).

And I get everything else you say - it evidently wasn't communicated properly previously (unless I and others missed it...) and it's my view that that £10k should have stayed with the club.

Just my view.


The club did advertise for people to take on for Commercial work at a commission basis, can't remember exactly when but within the last two years. That doesn't explain why the club didn't announce that Tempest was taking this on, whilst no one else had applied.

Also doesn't confirm the Virgin Train deal as that was over two years ago, I would assume Tempest agreed a deal in advance of the Virgin Train deal if he has used this in his explanation.


With some seeing mistrust in the board with Craig Morley now 3 months into his role I’d be interested to see how much profit we have made against salary. Don’t need to know salary but as a fan owned club can Chris Stockdale provide these figures or are they secret until next AGM in 2020?


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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:31 pm 
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Unless you have a really good message to give then I think an update after 3 months could be unfair, Morley may well tread water for a while. Commercial needs to be built up over years, many say the summer is the busiest period for Commercial in advance of the next season, sadly Morley missed this period.

The club could give an indication but imagine if this wasn't going well, half the fan base would want shot without even thinking this may well take some time to turn around.

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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:37 pm 
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super_les_mcjannet wrote:
Unless you have a really good message to give then I think an update after 3 months could be unfair, Morley may well tread water for a while. Commercial needs to be built up over years, many say the summer is the busiest period for Commercial in advance of the next season, sadly Morley missed this period.

The club could give an indication but imagine if this wasn't going well, half the fan base would want shot without even thinking this may well take some time to turn around.


Take your point but after criticism on a volunteer doing commercial it would be interesting to know how a paid member of staff is doing, I’d imagine he must be on some sort of probation.


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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:39 pm 
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super_les_mcjannet wrote:
Unless you have a really good message to give then I think an update after 3 months could be unfair, Morley may well tread water for a while. Commercial needs to be built up over years, many say the summer is the busiest period for Commercial in advance of the next season, sadly Morley missed this period.

The club could give an indication but imagine if this wasn't going well, half the fan base would want shot without even thinking this may well take some time to turn around.
Exactly.

Seemed like there were some quick wins initially but three months is far too early to draw any conclusions.

His pedigree seems excellent and he clearly has contracts in the north east from his time at Durham but I doubt we're the easiest sell out there.

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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:36 pm 
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Spyman wrote:
but I doubt we're the easiest sell out there.



That's putting it mildly.

Morley will have his work cut out for sure. It's a high pressure job as well because not only are you trying to bring extra business in but you also have to justify your salary - not saying this about CM in particular, it applies in any sales job.

If I was ever bored enough or imaginative enough to think of the 100 worst, and most terrible jobs that I would like to do, I reckon DFC commercial manager would be bottom of that pile.

You've got to admire anyone who steps up to do it, and doubly admire anyone who can actually succeed at it - most people wouldn't succeed. As others have said, CM will need time.

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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:45 pm 
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Ghost_Of_1883 wrote:
Spyman wrote:
but I doubt we're the easiest sell out there.



That's putting it mildly.

Morley will have his work cut out for sure. It's a high pressure job as well because not only are you trying to bring extra business in but you also have to justify your salary - not saying this about CM in particular, it applies in any sales job.

If I was ever bored enough or imaginative enough to think of the 100 worst, and most terrible jobs that I would like to do, I reckon DFC commercial manager would be bottom of that pile.

You've got to admire anyone who steps up to do it, and doubly admire anyone who can actually succeed at it - most people wouldn't succeed. As others have said, CM will need time.


Looking around the ground there’s more sponsorship and having been in corporate twice over Christmas it was heaving so he’s doing a great job but I suppose Stockdale will have to offset that success against what he’s being paid.


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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:06 pm 
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I'm sure that there is an obvious explanation that I am missing for the huge increase in Legal and Professional fees that rose from £730 in the year to June 30, 2017, to £40,734 in the year to June 30, 2018.

It still looks scary to look back on that overall £157,976 loss for 2017 even if it was a less scary £72,846 loss for 2018.

Other costs that are being attended to now are the £350,799 playing staff costs in 2018 which had risen from £245,169 in 2017. Other staff costs were £72,615 in 2018 compared to £96,012 in 2017.

Transfer fees paid for the year to June 30, 2018, were £22,500 (Styche mainly?) compared to £4,167 in 2017.

Rent and rates cost £38,548 in the year to June 30, 2017, rising to £41,841 to June 30, 2018.

Gate and matchday income was £298,096 for 2018 compared to £294,753 for 2017.

Commercial and sponsorship brought in £55,441 in 2018 down from £66,300 on 2017. I'm sure that will now be very much on the up with our new appointment.

Transfer cash received was £76,501 (thank God) for 2018 compared to £14,000 in 2017.


Last edited by LoidLucan on Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:28 pm 
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LoidLucan wrote:
I'm sure that there is an obvious explanation that I am missing for the huge increase in Legal and Professional fees that rose from £730 in the year to June 30, 2017, to £40,734 in the year to June 30, 2018.

It still looks scary to look back on that overall £157,976 loss for 2017 even if it was a less scary £72,846 loss for 2018.

Other costs that are being attended now are the £350,799 playing staff costs in 2018 which had risen from £245,169 in 2017. Other staff costs were £72,615 in 2018 compared to £96,012 in 2017.

Transfer fees paid for the year to June 30, 2018, were £22,500 (Styche mainly?) compared to £4,167 in 2017.

Rent and rates cost £38,548 in the year to June 30, 2017, rising to £41,841 to June 30, 2018.

Gate and matchday income was £298,096 for 2018 compared to £294,753 for 2017.

Commercial and sponsorship brought in £55,441 in 2018 down from £66,300 on 2017. I'm sure that will now be very much on the up with our new appointment.

Transfer cash received was £76,501 (thank God) for 2018 compared to £14,000 in 2017.


When are the accounts up to, June 18? Making the accounts basically cover the 17/18 season? I should have received them but don't seem to have.

The playing costs of 350k are eye watering, no wonder we went into this season with a planned 40% reduction on that, with the BTB being added to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:42 pm 
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Year ended June 30, 2018, so the comparisons are with the year ended June 30, 2017. So yes they are for the season 2017-2018 compared to the season 2016-17.


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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:57 pm 
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quakersfan wrote:
Ghost_Of_1883 wrote:
Spyman wrote:
but I doubt we're the easiest sell out there.



That's putting it mildly.

Morley will have his work cut out for sure. It's a high pressure job as well because not only are you trying to bring extra business in but you also have to justify your salary - not saying this about CM in particular, it applies in any sales job.

If I was ever bored enough or imaginative enough to think of the 100 worst, and most terrible jobs that I would like to do, I reckon DFC commercial manager would be bottom of that pile.

You've got to admire anyone who steps up to do it, and doubly admire anyone who can actually succeed at it - most people wouldn't succeed. As others have said, CM will need time.


Looking around the ground there’s more sponsorship and having been in corporate twice over Christmas it was heaving so he’s doing a great job but I suppose Stockdale will have to offset that success against what he’s being paid.

Stockdale???.Who the hell is Stockdale?


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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:05 pm 
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Stockdale is Chris Stockdale, chairman of DFCSG and the man looking after the club finances.

Someone we want to encourage to continue being involved with our club.

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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:19 pm 
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Actually looking at the accounts again what is the massive rise in professional fees - are we paying for Jonathan Jowett’s legal advice, I can’t get my head around what it would be for as we apparently ditched Muckle’s in 2016.


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 Post subject: Re: Club Accounts
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:41 pm 
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super_les_mcjannet wrote:
Stockdale is Chris Stockdale, chairman of DFCSG and the man looking after the club finances.

Someone we want to encourage to continue being involved with our club.

:oops: Of course he is.Totally got the wrong end of the stick of that post. :oops:


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