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 Post subject: Re: AGM
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:43 pm 
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hindsight is a wonderful thing but we all knew we needed somewhere to play , but did we know the restrictions .no we didnt


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 Post subject: Re: AGM
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:47 pm 
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Ghost_Of_1883 wrote:
Just thinking back on what was discussed - after being quite happy about what divas was postulating, it's a bit sobering to read LLs thoughts about costs and the probable impossibility of achieving it all.

Regarding our own place at the Arena, to be honest I think a 2,000 seat stand would be difficult to achieve at £1.5m. A modular stand yes maybe, but realistically the "main" stand would need to be a proper stand with concourse which could house changing rooms, club shop, bar as a minimum - ideally a few exec boxes as well. Not going to happen for £1.5m. If we look at the new East Stand at Feethams, OK it was 3,800 capacity so a fair bit bigger than what we are talking about here, but this cost £5 million didn't it, and that was 20 years ago.

Let's say we can somehow build a main stand for as little as 1.5-2.5 million, it's still going to cost at least 5 or 6 million in total if we're lucky, to build a 5,000 capacity 4 sided ground. Even moving the stands from BM and re-erecting them would cost a lot, and we'd still need to construct another stand as well. Then there's all the interior/exterior fencing, paving, parking etc etc etc.

But how realistic is that? As LL says, we're part of the SV talks because we are a cash cow to give Mowden another income stream, if we have our own ground on site what is in it for them, and how does it help with their running costs of the Arena? They would make money by us sharing their pitch and charging us for that, and by getting public use of that pitch on non matchdays.

I can't really see an incentive for them or anyone else to give us a parcel of land and say "there you go boys and girls, go and build on that". So could it ever happen, even if we could raise the cash?

And talking about the cash that we'd need to raise, if we were capable of raising say 5-6 million, then we could get BM up to league standard with that sort of money, so why move? Pay the million to divert the water pipe. Extend the main stand with 2 more modules so it is pitch length at a cost of around 300-500k. Build a 1,000-2,000 seated stand at the open end and section it off for away fans, and complete extra necessary work such as extra turnstiles and exits etc? Possibly a small terrace alongside the club house side if the hard standing no longer counts towards the capacity?

I know we often say that we can't get BM up to league standards, but that is based on us not spending millions of pounds and only working within the current available space. If we had millions to spend and diverted the pipe, then we've got more space to build in.

So if we need to raise millions to build a ground at the SV, why not raise millions to complete the job at BM instead?


This.

The scenarios being presented here are both talking about the necessity of spending a few million to get a football league standard ground. Except, one involves spending an indeterminate amount of time in a terrible, plastic bowl a large chunk of the fanbase absolutely despise, with no guarantee we would ever complete this 'other ground'. The other involves moving pipes and rebuilding blackwell at large expense, but at least in the meantime we play at an appropriate sized ground, closer to the town centre. Either option would involve an uncomfortable partnership with a rugby club, but the Arena option is more expensive, as we'd still be contractually bound to BM.

Absolutely nuts to the Arena. Get BM up to *conference national* standard (easily done with another smallish stand). *IF* we find ourselves in a position to get back into the football league, then, if we have nothing else, we could make overtures to share at the Arena. But, that is likely a long, long way away, if entirely impossible.


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 Post subject: Re: AGM
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:54 pm 
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H1987 wrote:
Ghost_Of_1883 wrote:
Just thinking back on what was discussed - after being quite happy about what divas was postulating, it's a bit sobering to read LLs thoughts about costs and the probable impossibility of achieving it all.

Regarding our own place at the Arena, to be honest I think a 2,000 seat stand would be difficult to achieve at £1.5m. A modular stand yes maybe, but realistically the "main" stand would need to be a proper stand with concourse which could house changing rooms, club shop, bar as a minimum - ideally a few exec boxes as well. Not going to happen for £1.5m. If we look at the new East Stand at Feethams, OK it was 3,800 capacity so a fair bit bigger than what we are talking about here, but this cost £5 million didn't it, and that was 20 years ago.

Let's say we can somehow build a main stand for as little as 1.5-2.5 million, it's still going to cost at least 5 or 6 million in total if we're lucky, to build a 5,000 capacity 4 sided ground. Even moving the stands from BM and re-erecting them would cost a lot, and we'd still need to construct another stand as well. Then there's all the interior/exterior fencing, paving, parking etc etc etc.

But how realistic is that? As LL says, we're part of the SV talks because we are a cash cow to give Mowden another income stream, if we have our own ground on site what is in it for them, and how does it help with their running costs of the Arena? They would make money by us sharing their pitch and charging us for that, and by getting public use of that pitch on non matchdays.

I can't really see an incentive for them or anyone else to give us a parcel of land and say "there you go boys and girls, go and build on that". So could it ever happen, even if we could raise the cash?

And talking about the cash that we'd need to raise, if we were capable of raising say 5-6 million, then we could get BM up to league standard with that sort of money, so why move? Pay the million to divert the water pipe. Extend the main stand with 2 more modules so it is pitch length at a cost of around 300-500k. Build a 1,000-2,000 seated stand at the open end and section it off for away fans, and complete extra necessary work such as extra turnstiles and exits etc? Possibly a small terrace alongside the club house side if the hard standing no longer counts towards the capacity?

I know we often say that we can't get BM up to league standards, but that is based on us not spending millions of pounds and only working within the current available space. If we had millions to spend and diverted the pipe, then we've got more space to build in.

So if we need to raise millions to build a ground at the SV, why not raise millions to complete the job at BM instead?


This.

The scenarios being presented here are both talking about the necessity of spending a few million to get a football league standard ground. Except, one involves spending an indeterminate amount of time in a terrible, plastic bowl a large chunk of the fanbase absolutely despise, with no guarantee we would ever complete this 'other ground'. The other involves moving pipes and rebuilding blackwell at large expense, but at least in the meantime we play at an appropriate sized ground, closer to the town centre. Either option would involve an uncomfortable partnership with a rugby club, but the Arena option is more expensive, as we'd still be contractually bound to BM.

Absolutely nuts to the Arena. Get BM up to *conference national* standard (easily done with another smallish stand). *IF* we find ourselves in a position to get back into the football league, then, if we have nothing else, we could make overtures to share at the Arena. But, that is likely a long, long way away, if entirely impossible.


I guess one we would own and have our own club house, one we wouldn't and we would still be under the control of the Rugby Club.

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 Post subject: Re: AGM
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:02 pm 
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al_quaker wrote:
Either way, can anyone realistically see us raising the required money? It's staggering amounts of money for a small group of people to raise. We could saddle ourselves with debt, but then we'd have no chance of surviving at this level, as we can barely afford it now with relatively little debt. So we'd be consigning ourselves to years and years of Evostik football while paying for the building of a stadium fit for the football league. Which will likely do such damage to our fanbase that we'd never have to worry about troubling the football league ever again.

That being said, it looks like we're heading for the Evostik in the not too distant future as it is - if the budget needs to be cut even further next season then we'll probably be relegated next season (that's if we manage to survive this year, which is far from guaranteed).


I don't think things are that bad to be honest Al. Budget may reduce but we have wasted some this year on Caton, Collins and others. We have all said we should have loaned people form the start, which is the plan next year, we had the option for the Boro goalkeeper to have him all season but we signed one to pay ourselves. Feels harsh on Maddison to single him out but we could have had Hemming reduced our budget and no change to performance.

Imagine if we had gone for Smith from the start and not signed Burn, who would have complained. If we go back down to the Evostik it's due to bad management and not budget.

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 Post subject: Re: AGM
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:03 pm 
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For me, if we are to stay at BM then we must renegotiate our deal with the rugby club, make it more of a partnership between the 2 clubs as opposed to landlord and tenant.


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 Post subject: Re: AGM
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:06 pm 
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If people are happy to stay at BM and play in front of a dwindling fan base who have voted with their feet as they don’t like the current situation - Still being theoretically homeless, being told what we can and can’t do and only being allowed in the ground for a few hours on a matchday isn’t conducive to attracting new fans, sponsors and commercial partners - then fair enough, we’ll probably always have a club to support at some level in the pyramid.

I have an aspiration that the club will have a facility that they have much more autonomy over that will allow us to grow revenues, somewhere we can finally call home.

Much like the debate over changing the ownership model we were always going to get to a fork in the road whereby one section of the fan base disagrees with another in terms of ambition / risk going forwards


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 Post subject: Re: AGM
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:11 pm 
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dfc4me wrote:
For me, if we are to stay at BM then we must renegotiate our deal with the rugby club, make it more of a partnership between the 2 clubs as opposed to landlord and tenant.


It simply ain’t going to happen without us giving them a large sum of cash to buy a stake in the place - why would they, that’s their ground they’ve spent vast sums on themselves and we’ve just build infrastructure that they didn’t need or probably want. We talk about just doing this and just doing that to BM but it all needs to be agreed with the rugby club. Given the plight of the plot of land the ground is on with the restrictions you wouldn’t want to buy a stake in it. There’s a reason the council sold them the land on the cheap!

Christ we can’t even use our own caterers on a matchday, come into the ground 5 minutes before our license or put any signage / memorabilia up and that’s 2 years into things

Who’s to say in 17 years when the lease is up and our rent has paid off their debt they won’t just wave goodbye to us anyway?


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 Post subject: Re: AGM
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:13 pm 
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What we would be talking about here would be turning our backs on a ground which has cost us many, many thousands of pounds to bring up to scratch both in terms of the infrastructure and the playing surface (which on its own the fans contributed £42,000 towards).

For me, to just bin everything that has been done so far (and it was a considerable achievement) I would want to see an alternative that had big and immediate and long-term advantages for the club, particularly in terms of revenue. I don't see that in what would be offered at the SV... in fact I see us playing in a vast, inappropriate stadium with very limited revenue streams and then virtually a mission impossible to build a multi-million-pound new stadium from a field while trying to also finance a competitive side.

What would need to be on offer would be something like the council, developers and us in some kind of partnership to build a realistic-sized community stadium alongside other developments at the SV. That's not on offer and, in fact, very little seems to be on offer other than maybe the vague possibility of one day being able to finance a brand new stadium from fans' contributions.

As things stand and from what I've read about what's on offer and what we stand to gain, it's no thank you. Concentrate on trying to make the best of what we have, flawed thought that may be.


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 Post subject: Re: AGM
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:14 pm 
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super_les_mcjannet wrote:
H1987 wrote:
Ghost_Of_1883 wrote:
Just thinking back on what was discussed - after being quite happy about what divas was postulating, it's a bit sobering to read LLs thoughts about costs and the probable impossibility of achieving it all.

Regarding our own place at the Arena, to be honest I think a 2,000 seat stand would be difficult to achieve at £1.5m. A modular stand yes maybe, but realistically the "main" stand would need to be a proper stand with concourse which could house changing rooms, club shop, bar as a minimum - ideally a few exec boxes as well. Not going to happen for £1.5m. If we look at the new East Stand at Feethams, OK it was 3,800 capacity so a fair bit bigger than what we are talking about here, but this cost £5 million didn't it, and that was 20 years ago.

Let's say we can somehow build a main stand for as little as 1.5-2.5 million, it's still going to cost at least 5 or 6 million in total if we're lucky, to build a 5,000 capacity 4 sided ground. Even moving the stands from BM and re-erecting them would cost a lot, and we'd still need to construct another stand as well. Then there's all the interior/exterior fencing, paving, parking etc etc etc.

But how realistic is that? As LL says, we're part of the SV talks because we are a cash cow to give Mowden another income stream, if we have our own ground on site what is in it for them, and how does it help with their running costs of the Arena? They would make money by us sharing their pitch and charging us for that, and by getting public use of that pitch on non matchdays.

I can't really see an incentive for them or anyone else to give us a parcel of land and say "there you go boys and girls, go and build on that". So could it ever happen, even if we could raise the cash?

And talking about the cash that we'd need to raise, if we were capable of raising say 5-6 million, then we could get BM up to league standard with that sort of money, so why move? Pay the million to divert the water pipe. Extend the main stand with 2 more modules so it is pitch length at a cost of around 300-500k. Build a 1,000-2,000 seated stand at the open end and section it off for away fans, and complete extra necessary work such as extra turnstiles and exits etc? Possibly a small terrace alongside the club house side if the hard standing no longer counts towards the capacity?

I know we often say that we can't get BM up to league standards, but that is based on us not spending millions of pounds and only working within the current available space. If we had millions to spend and diverted the pipe, then we've got more space to build in.

So if we need to raise millions to build a ground at the SV, why not raise millions to complete the job at BM instead?


This.

The scenarios being presented here are both talking about the necessity of spending a few million to get a football league standard ground. Except, one involves spending an indeterminate amount of time in a terrible, plastic bowl a large chunk of the fanbase absolutely despise, with no guarantee we would ever complete this 'other ground'. The other involves moving pipes and rebuilding blackwell at large expense, but at least in the meantime we play at an appropriate sized ground, closer to the town centre. Either option would involve an uncomfortable partnership with a rugby club, but the Arena option is more expensive, as we'd still be contractually bound to BM.

Absolutely nuts to the Arena. Get BM up to *conference national* standard (easily done with another smallish stand). *IF* we find ourselves in a position to get back into the football league, then, if we have nothing else, we could make overtures to share at the Arena. But, that is likely a long, long way away, if entirely impossible.


I guess one we would own and have our own club house, one we wouldn't and we would still be under the control of the Rugby Club.


This is the nail on the head. I honestly believe that the long term future has got to be around a structure/ground that we have ownership of, the whole long term aim would change overnight , sponsors/ investors would see what was being achieved want to be involved. It’s all about having that vision. Send for BH.


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 Post subject: Re: AGM
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:23 pm 
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super_les_mcjannet wrote:
al_quaker wrote:
Either way, can anyone realistically see us raising the required money? It's staggering amounts of money for a small group of people to raise. We could saddle ourselves with debt, but then we'd have no chance of surviving at this level, as we can barely afford it now with relatively little debt. So we'd be consigning ourselves to years and years of Evostik football while paying for the building of a stadium fit for the football league. Which will likely do such damage to our fanbase that we'd never have to worry about troubling the football league ever again.

That being said, it looks like we're heading for the Evostik in the not too distant future as it is - if the budget needs to be cut even further next season then we'll probably be relegated next season (that's if we manage to survive this year, which is far from guaranteed).

I don't think things are that bad to be honest Al. Budget may reduce but we have wasted some this year on Caton, Collins and others. We have all said we should have loaned people form the start, which is the plan next year, we had the option for the Boro goalkeeper to have him all season but we signed one to pay ourselves. Feels harsh on Maddison to single him out but we could have had Hemming reduced our budget and no change to performance.

Imagine if we had gone for Smith from the start and not signed Burn, who would have complained. If we go back down to the Evostik it's due to bad management and not budget.

As usual you are probably correct! Perhaps if there was a long term plan I could get behind (and I know people are working on this) then I may feel a little bit more optimistic about the whole situation. But at the moment it all feels a bit hopeless for the future - and I guess pretty much 2 seasons where excitement or optimism has vacated after a handful of games doesn't help either :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: AGM
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:44 pm 
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super_les_mcjannet wrote:
H1987 wrote:
Ghost_Of_1883 wrote:
Just thinking back on what was discussed - after being quite happy about what divas was postulating, it's a bit sobering to read LLs thoughts about costs and the probable impossibility of achieving it all.

Regarding our own place at the Arena, to be honest I think a 2,000 seat stand would be difficult to achieve at £1.5m. A modular stand yes maybe, but realistically the "main" stand would need to be a proper stand with concourse which could house changing rooms, club shop, bar as a minimum - ideally a few exec boxes as well. Not going to happen for £1.5m. If we look at the new East Stand at Feethams, OK it was 3,800 capacity so a fair bit bigger than what we are talking about here, but this cost £5 million didn't it, and that was 20 years ago.

Let's say we can somehow build a main stand for as little as 1.5-2.5 million, it's still going to cost at least 5 or 6 million in total if we're lucky, to build a 5,000 capacity 4 sided ground. Even moving the stands from BM and re-erecting them would cost a lot, and we'd still need to construct another stand as well. Then there's all the interior/exterior fencing, paving, parking etc etc etc.

But how realistic is that? As LL says, we're part of the SV talks because we are a cash cow to give Mowden another income stream, if we have our own ground on site what is in it for them, and how does it help with their running costs of the Arena? They would make money by us sharing their pitch and charging us for that, and by getting public use of that pitch on non matchdays.

I can't really see an incentive for them or anyone else to give us a parcel of land and say "there you go boys and girls, go and build on that". So could it ever happen, even if we could raise the cash?

And talking about the cash that we'd need to raise, if we were capable of raising say 5-6 million, then we could get BM up to league standard with that sort of money, so why move? Pay the million to divert the water pipe. Extend the main stand with 2 more modules so it is pitch length at a cost of around 300-500k. Build a 1,000-2,000 seated stand at the open end and section it off for away fans, and complete extra necessary work such as extra turnstiles and exits etc? Possibly a small terrace alongside the club house side if the hard standing no longer counts towards the capacity?

I know we often say that we can't get BM up to league standards, but that is based on us not spending millions of pounds and only working within the current available space. If we had millions to spend and diverted the pipe, then we've got more space to build in.

So if we need to raise millions to build a ground at the SV, why not raise millions to complete the job at BM instead?


This.

The scenarios being presented here are both talking about the necessity of spending a few million to get a football league standard ground. Except, one involves spending an indeterminate amount of time in a terrible, plastic bowl a large chunk of the fanbase absolutely despise, with no guarantee we would ever complete this 'other ground'. The other involves moving pipes and rebuilding blackwell at large expense, but at least in the meantime we play at an appropriate sized ground, closer to the town centre. Either option would involve an uncomfortable partnership with a rugby club, but the Arena option is more expensive, as we'd still be contractually bound to BM.

Absolutely nuts to the Arena. Get BM up to *conference national* standard (easily done with another smallish stand). *IF* we find ourselves in a position to get back into the football league, then, if we have nothing else, we could make overtures to share at the Arena. But, that is likely a long, long way away, if entirely impossible.


I guess one we would own and have our own club house, one we wouldn't and we would still be under the control of the Rugby Club.


On what basis, exactly? This weird 'Arena for now' plan seems to be contingent on over a decade at the arena itself, with a vague promise we'll build another ground, with a clubhouse, right next to it?

Sorry. It's a ridiculous idea. If we move, with this promise we *might* get something built (if we raise millions) we might as well just give up now. It'll require even more money (to pay two rents) and absolutely no more autonomy than we have now... to achieve what... a 5,000 stadium that we could build at Blackwell anyway with that sort of money? The future development of Blackwell is contingent on us building our own clubhouse and 4G facilities anyway. We would have exactly the same, at presumably less cost, and not have to play in that disaster of a stadium.

Christ, in the long term, we might end up in a scenario where the rugby club consider it preferable we buy the main clubhouse from them and they build a new one on site. Even if you want to go back to the Arena, sit on the idea. Getting back to the football league is literally the only scenario it should ever even be considered, and we're a long, long way away from that to be an option. Christ knows what sort of state it'll be in come ten years time. It looks an absolute clip now, and it's only 16 years old. I wouldn't also rule out the idea that DMP might well not survive with it as a millstone. We've already financially bailed out one town rugby club, and now people want us to do it for them both at the same time!? Madness.


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 Post subject: Re: AGM
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:54 pm 
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H1987 wrote:
super_les_mcjannet wrote:
H1987 wrote:
Ghost_Of_1883 wrote:
Just thinking back on what was discussed - after being quite happy about what divas was postulating, it's a bit sobering to read LLs thoughts about costs and the probable impossibility of achieving it all.

Regarding our own place at the Arena, to be honest I think a 2,000 seat stand would be difficult to achieve at £1.5m. A modular stand yes maybe, but realistically the "main" stand would need to be a proper stand with concourse which could house changing rooms, club shop, bar as a minimum - ideally a few exec boxes as well. Not going to happen for £1.5m. If we look at the new East Stand at Feethams, OK it was 3,800 capacity so a fair bit bigger than what we are talking about here, but this cost £5 million didn't it, and that was 20 years ago.

Let's say we can somehow build a main stand for as little as 1.5-2.5 million, it's still going to cost at least 5 or 6 million in total if we're lucky, to build a 5,000 capacity 4 sided ground. Even moving the stands from BM and re-erecting them would cost a lot, and we'd still need to construct another stand as well. Then there's all the interior/exterior fencing, paving, parking etc etc etc.

But how realistic is that? As LL says, we're part of the SV talks because we are a cash cow to give Mowden another income stream, if we have our own ground on site what is in it for them, and how does it help with their running costs of the Arena? They would make money by us sharing their pitch and charging us for that, and by getting public use of that pitch on non matchdays.

I can't really see an incentive for them or anyone else to give us a parcel of land and say "there you go boys and girls, go and build on that". So could it ever happen, even if we could raise the cash?

And talking about the cash that we'd need to raise, if we were capable of raising say 5-6 million, then we could get BM up to league standard with that sort of money, so why move? Pay the million to divert the water pipe. Extend the main stand with 2 more modules so it is pitch length at a cost of around 300-500k. Build a 1,000-2,000 seated stand at the open end and section it off for away fans, and complete extra necessary work such as extra turnstiles and exits etc? Possibly a small terrace alongside the club house side if the hard standing no longer counts towards the capacity?

I know we often say that we can't get BM up to league standards, but that is based on us not spending millions of pounds and only working within the current available space. If we had millions to spend and diverted the pipe, then we've got more space to build in.

So if we need to raise millions to build a ground at the SV, why not raise millions to complete the job at BM instead?


This.

The scenarios being presented here are both talking about the necessity of spending a few million to get a football league standard ground. Except, one involves spending an indeterminate amount of time in a terrible, plastic bowl a large chunk of the fanbase absolutely despise, with no guarantee we would ever complete this 'other ground'. The other involves moving pipes and rebuilding blackwell at large expense, but at least in the meantime we play at an appropriate sized ground, closer to the town centre. Either option would involve an uncomfortable partnership with a rugby club, but the Arena option is more expensive, as we'd still be contractually bound to BM.

Absolutely nuts to the Arena. Get BM up to *conference national* standard (easily done with another smallish stand). *IF* we find ourselves in a position to get back into the football league, then, if we have nothing else, we could make overtures to share at the Arena. But, that is likely a long, long way away, if entirely impossible.


I guess one we would own and have our own club house, one we wouldn't and we would still be under the control of the Rugby Club.


On what basis, exactly? This weird 'Arena for now' plan seems to be contingent on over a decade at the arena itself, with a vague promise we'll build another ground, with a clubhouse, right next to it?

Sorry. It's a ridiculous idea. If we move, with this promise we *might* get something built (if we raise millions) we might as well just give up now. It'll require even more money (to pay two rents) and absolutely no more autonomy than we have now... to achieve what... a 5,000 stadium that we could build at Blackwell anyway with that sort of money? The future development of Blackwell is contingent on us building our own clubhouse and 4G facilities anyway. We would have exactly the same, at presumably less cost, and not have to play in that disaster of a stadium.

Christ, in the long term, we might end up in a scenario where the rugby club consider it preferable we buy the main clubhouse from them and they build a new one on site. Even if you want to go back to the Arena, sit on the idea. Getting back to the football league is literally the only scenario it should ever even be considered, and we're a long, long way away from that to be an option. Christ knows what sort of state it'll be in come ten years time. It looks an absolute clip now, and it's only 16 years old. I wouldn't also rule out the idea that DMP might well not survive with it as a millstone. We've already financially bailed out one town rugby club, and now people want us to do it for them both at the same time!? Madness.


There isn’t an Arena “plan” the suggestions I’ve made are how i see it might work based on the limited info I have. There’s more to it than you’ve assumed above from what I can gather but until we have the full detail it’s impossible to say either way. I just know that we’re going nowhere with the current deal and setup at BM


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:58 pm 
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H1987 wrote:
super_les_mcjannet wrote:
H1987 wrote:
Ghost_Of_1883 wrote:
Just thinking back on what was discussed - after being quite happy about what divas was postulating, it's a bit sobering to read LLs thoughts about costs and the probable impossibility of achieving it all.

Regarding our own place at the Arena, to be honest I think a 2,000 seat stand would be difficult to achieve at £1.5m. A modular stand yes maybe, but realistically the "main" stand would need to be a proper stand with concourse which could house changing rooms, club shop, bar as a minimum - ideally a few exec boxes as well. Not going to happen for £1.5m. If we look at the new East Stand at Feethams, OK it was 3,800 capacity so a fair bit bigger than what we are talking about here, but this cost £5 million didn't it, and that was 20 years ago.

Let's say we can somehow build a main stand for as little as 1.5-2.5 million, it's still going to cost at least 5 or 6 million in total if we're lucky, to build a 5,000 capacity 4 sided ground. Even moving the stands from BM and re-erecting them would cost a lot, and we'd still need to construct another stand as well. Then there's all the interior/exterior fencing, paving, parking etc etc etc.

But how realistic is that? As LL says, we're part of the SV talks because we are a cash cow to give Mowden another income stream, if we have our own ground on site what is in it for them, and how does it help with their running costs of the Arena? They would make money by us sharing their pitch and charging us for that, and by getting public use of that pitch on non matchdays.

I can't really see an incentive for them or anyone else to give us a parcel of land and say "there you go boys and girls, go and build on that". So could it ever happen, even if we could raise the cash?

And talking about the cash that we'd need to raise, if we were capable of raising say 5-6 million, then we could get BM up to league standard with that sort of money, so why move? Pay the million to divert the water pipe. Extend the main stand with 2 more modules so it is pitch length at a cost of around 300-500k. Build a 1,000-2,000 seated stand at the open end and section it off for away fans, and complete extra necessary work such as extra turnstiles and exits etc? Possibly a small terrace alongside the club house side if the hard standing no longer counts towards the capacity?

I know we often say that we can't get BM up to league standards, but that is based on us not spending millions of pounds and only working within the current available space. If we had millions to spend and diverted the pipe, then we've got more space to build in.

So if we need to raise millions to build a ground at the SV, why not raise millions to complete the job at BM instead?


This.

The scenarios being presented here are both talking about the necessity of spending a few million to get a football league standard ground. Except, one involves spending an indeterminate amount of time in a terrible, plastic bowl a large chunk of the fanbase absolutely despise, with no guarantee we would ever complete this 'other ground'. The other involves moving pipes and rebuilding blackwell at large expense, but at least in the meantime we play at an appropriate sized ground, closer to the town centre. Either option would involve an uncomfortable partnership with a rugby club, but the Arena option is more expensive, as we'd still be contractually bound to BM.

Absolutely nuts to the Arena. Get BM up to *conference national* standard (easily done with another smallish stand). *IF* we find ourselves in a position to get back into the football league, then, if we have nothing else, we could make overtures to share at the Arena. But, that is likely a long, long way away, if entirely impossible.


I guess one we would own and have our own club house, one we wouldn't and we would still be under the control of the Rugby Club.


On what basis, exactly? This weird 'Arena for now' plan seems to be contingent on over a decade at the arena itself, with a vague promise we'll build another ground, with a clubhouse, right next to it?

Sorry. It's a ridiculous idea. If we move, with this promise we *might* get something built (if we raise millions) we might as well just give up now. It'll require even more money (to pay two rents) and absolutely no more autonomy than we have now... to achieve what... a 5,000 stadium that we could build at Blackwell anyway with that sort of money? The future development of Blackwell is contingent on us building our own clubhouse and 4G facilities anyway. We would have exactly the same, at presumably less cost, and not have to play in that disaster of a stadium.

Christ, in the long term, we might end up in a scenario where the rugby club consider it preferable we buy the main clubhouse from them and they build a new one on site. Even if you want to go back to the Arena, sit on the idea. Getting back to the football league is literally the only scenario it should ever even be considered, and we're a long, long way away from that to be an option. Christ knows what sort of state it'll be in come ten years time. It looks an absolute clip now, and it's only 16 years old. I wouldn't also rule out the idea that DMP might well not survive with it as a millstone. We've already financially bailed out one town rugby club, and now people want us to do it for them both at the same time!? Madness.


On the basis I won't make a decision until I have a lot more facts. I have many similar worries to yourself and in theory no option seems very good to me, it very much needs a longer term vision but I can't see either way working until we have a lot more information.

We can continue as we are rattling around with the Rugby Club telling us we can't have our own chef in, we can't arrange our own caterers and asking why we are on site because we turned up to manage the stock in the club shop on a day we hadn't agreed or we can maybe look for another path.

I wouldn't rule either way out.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:06 pm 
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Maybe there'll be a great big rabbit to be pulled out of the hat that will scream "go back to Neasham Road because it's an offer too good to refuse". I wouldn't hold my breath on that one though.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:16 pm 
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super_les_mcjannet wrote:
asking why we are on site because we turned up to manage the stock in the club shop on a day we hadn't agreed or

:lol: christ they are pathetic

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al_quaker wrote:
super_les_mcjannet wrote:
asking why we are on site because we turned up to manage the stock in the club shop on a day we hadn't agreed or

:lol: christ they are pathetic


My thoughts too - I know it’s only a small thing but what’s going on?

The shop isn’t even inside the ground.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:07 pm 
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theoriginalfatcat wrote:
al_quaker wrote:
super_les_mcjannet wrote:
asking why we are on site because we turned up to manage the stock in the club shop on a day we hadn't agreed or

:lol: christ they are pathetic


My thoughts too - I know it’s only a small thing but what’s going on?

The shop isn’t even inside the ground.


Yeah, I mean if this is true and these sort of things are happening then that's petty and we can't have any meaningful relationship. It does seem as if they are happy to have our money but don't want us there. We're a complete fucking pariah aren't we?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:27 pm 
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Have no idea on the tone but surely a question of “why are you here today” is actually pretty innocent if you have turned up on a day that wasn’t expected...

I mean I have asked people in work the same thing if they are in on their non working day. I hope they didn’t think I was telling them they weren’t welcome...


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:36 pm 
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Let's be honest the Rugby club see it as us renting certain parts of the club at certain times and that's it, we don't have a partnership where we work together to allow both clubs to drive forward together.

The Rugby Club have taken us on as financially it improves their situation, but we are not in this together and never will be. They own the ground and they don't want that to change, would we be any different in their shoes, possibly not.

I don't see a lot of it changing really.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:13 pm 
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It’s strange coz on matchday the staff at the club and our volunteers seem to work together pretty well and help / support each other. Their preference probably isn’t that we’ve kicked their first XV game off the main pitch that is true but probably understandable.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:08 pm 
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Wasn’t the original BM plan for us to build on a separate part of the site in the longer-term?

Regardless of happens next, BM has been a total disaster in every way so far.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:48 am 
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Beano wrote:
Wasn’t the original BM plan for us to build on a separate part of the site in the longer-term?

Regardless of happens next, BM has been a total disaster in every way so far.
It was certainly the original plan sold to us.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:40 am 
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Beano wrote:
Wasn’t the original BM plan for us to build on a separate part of the site in the longer-term?

Regardless of happens next, BM has been a total disaster in every way so far.


I wouldn’t say a disaster it’s quite adequate with the level we are at and crowds we get, I’ve never yet seen the 500 seated stand full. The times I’ve used hospitality it’s been a very pleasant experience. The problem we have is if we are ambitious and want to progress back to the league BM will cost a lot to develop.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:22 am 
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Ghost_Of_1883 wrote:
Just thinking back on what was discussed - after being quite happy about what divas was postulating, it's a bit sobering to read LLs thoughts about costs and the probable impossibility of achieving it all.

Regarding our own place at the Arena, to be honest I think a 2,000 seat stand would be difficult to achieve at £1.5m. A modular stand yes maybe, but realistically the "main" stand would need to be a proper stand with concourse which could house changing rooms, club shop, bar as a minimum - ideally a few exec boxes as well. Not going to happen for £1.5m. If we look at the new East Stand at Feethams, OK it was 3,800 capacity so a fair bit bigger than what we are talking about here, but this cost £5 million didn't it, and that was 20 years ago.

Let's say we can somehow build a main stand for as little as 1.5-2.5 million, it's still going to cost at least 5 or 6 million in total if we're lucky, to build a 5,000 capacity 4 sided ground. Even moving the stands from BM and re-erecting them would cost a lot, and we'd still need to construct another stand as well. Then there's all the interior/exterior fencing, paving, parking etc etc etc.

But how realistic is that? As LL says, we're part of the SV talks because we are a cash cow to give Mowden another income stream, if we have our own ground on site what is in it for them, and how does it help with their running costs of the Arena? They would make money by us sharing their pitch and charging us for that, and by getting public use of that pitch on non matchdays.

I can't really see an incentive for them or anyone else to give us a parcel of land and say "there you go boys and girls, go and build on that". So could it ever happen, even if we could raise the cash?

And talking about the cash that we'd need to raise, if we were capable of raising say 5-6 million, then we could get BM up to league standard with that sort of money, so why move? Pay the million to divert the water pipe. Extend the main stand with 2 more modules so it is pitch length at a cost of around 300-500k. Build a 1,000-2,000 seated stand at the open end and section it off for away fans, and complete extra necessary work such as extra turnstiles and exits etc? Possibly a small terrace alongside the club house side if the hard standing no longer counts towards the capacity?

I know we often say that we can't get BM up to league standards, but that is based on us not spending millions of pounds and only working within the current available space. If we had millions to spend and diverted the pipe, then we've got more space to build in.

So if we need to raise millions to build a ground at the SV, why not raise millions to complete the job at BM instead?

This! Maybe our relationship with DRFC will grow warmer and they may come on board seeing benefits to them, they may even qualify for grants from the rugby authorities to assist us. Nothing is impossible.

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I would like to see an organized public meeting held with the rugby club members to try and build a working relationship with BM. What concerns do they have, why do volunteers work well but management don't appear too, why have the rugby club not worked more together with the football club on joint sporting or charity days?
Why do the ruby club feel so strong about not having DFC signs outside the ground? Are rugby club members discounted to DFc games and vice versa. I thought after two years together, BM would have a good bond between the two sports but it appears we as far apart as the day we moved from Heritage Park, possibly further WHY?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:26 am 
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Following this thread is getting much like Brexit. Many different solutions to an, as yet, inponderable problem. There seems to be many opinions but few facts. And rather like Brexit the idea of leaving BM would be quite a leap of faith, based on what little can be ascertained at the moment, but has the peril of being big on promises but unclear on achievability. And similarly our relationship with the rugby club at BM may seem to be full of EU style rules and regulation that has some folks blowing their tops on how dare they dictate to us. Don't they realise we once had an empire/were a football league club.

It may not be the majority thinking, and I guess I'm just a bit of an old stick in the mud, but at the moment, at least, on both Brexit and BM I'm inclined to stick with the devil we know.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:41 am 
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super_les_mcjannet wrote:
H1987 wrote:
super_les_mcjannet wrote:
H1987 wrote:
Ghost_Of_1883 wrote:
Just thinking back on what was discussed - after being quite happy about what divas was postulating, it's a bit sobering to read LLs thoughts about costs and the probable impossibility of achieving it all.

Regarding our own place at the Arena, to be honest I think a 2,000 seat stand would be difficult to achieve at £1.5m. A modular stand yes maybe, but realistically the "main" stand would need to be a proper stand with concourse which could house changing rooms, club shop, bar as a minimum - ideally a few exec boxes as well. Not going to happen for £1.5m. If we look at the new East Stand at Feethams, OK it was 3,800 capacity so a fair bit bigger than what we are talking about here, but this cost £5 million didn't it, and that was 20 years ago.

Let's say we can somehow build a main stand for as little as 1.5-2.5 million, it's still going to cost at least 5 or 6 million in total if we're lucky, to build a 5,000 capacity 4 sided ground. Even moving the stands from BM and re-erecting them would cost a lot, and we'd still need to construct another stand as well. Then there's all the interior/exterior fencing, paving, parking etc etc etc.

But how realistic is that? As LL says, we're part of the SV talks because we are a cash cow to give Mowden another income stream, if we have our own ground on site what is in it for them, and how does it help with their running costs of the Arena? They would make money by us sharing their pitch and charging us for that, and by getting public use of that pitch on non matchdays.

I can't really see an incentive for them or anyone else to give us a parcel of land and say "there you go boys and girls, go and build on that". So could it ever happen, even if we could raise the cash?

And talking about the cash that we'd need to raise, if we were capable of raising say 5-6 million, then we could get BM up to league standard with that sort of money, so why move? Pay the million to divert the water pipe. Extend the main stand with 2 more modules so it is pitch length at a cost of around 300-500k. Build a 1,000-2,000 seated stand at the open end and section it off for away fans, and complete extra necessary work such as extra turnstiles and exits etc? Possibly a small terrace alongside the club house side if the hard standing no longer counts towards the capacity?

I know we often say that we can't get BM up to league standards, but that is based on us not spending millions of pounds and only working within the current available space. If we had millions to spend and diverted the pipe, then we've got more space to build in.

So if we need to raise millions to build a ground at the SV, why not raise millions to complete the job at BM instead?


This.

The scenarios being presented here are both talking about the necessity of spending a few million to get a football league standard ground. Except, one involves spending an indeterminate amount of time in a terrible, plastic bowl a large chunk of the fanbase absolutely despise, with no guarantee we would ever complete this 'other ground'. The other involves moving pipes and rebuilding blackwell at large expense, but at least in the meantime we play at an appropriate sized ground, closer to the town centre. Either option would involve an uncomfortable partnership with a rugby club, but the Arena option is more expensive, as we'd still be contractually bound to BM.

Absolutely nuts to the Arena. Get BM up to *conference national* standard (easily done with another smallish stand). *IF* we find ourselves in a position to get back into the football league, then, if we have nothing else, we could make overtures to share at the Arena. But, that is likely a long, long way away, if entirely impossible.


I guess one we would own and have our own club house, one we wouldn't and we would still be under the control of the Rugby Club.


On what basis, exactly? This weird 'Arena for now' plan seems to be contingent on over a decade at the arena itself, with a vague promise we'll build another ground, with a clubhouse, right next to it?

Sorry. It's a ridiculous idea. If we move, with this promise we *might* get something built (if we raise millions) we might as well just give up now. It'll require even more money (to pay two rents) and absolutely no more autonomy than we have now... to achieve what... a 5,000 stadium that we could build at Blackwell anyway with that sort of money? The future development of Blackwell is contingent on us building our own clubhouse and 4G facilities anyway. We would have exactly the same, at presumably less cost, and not have to play in that disaster of a stadium.

Christ, in the long term, we might end up in a scenario where the rugby club consider it preferable we buy the main clubhouse from them and they build a new one on site. Even if you want to go back to the Arena, sit on the idea. Getting back to the football league is literally the only scenario it should ever even be considered, and we're a long, long way away from that to be an option. Christ knows what sort of state it'll be in come ten years time. It looks an absolute clip now, and it's only 16 years old. I wouldn't also rule out the idea that DMP might well not survive with it as a millstone. We've already financially bailed out one town rugby club, and now people want us to do it for them both at the same time!? Madness.


On the basis I won't make a decision until I have a lot more facts. I have many similar worries to yourself and in theory no option seems very good to me, it very much needs a longer term vision but I can't see either way working until we have a lot more information.

We can continue as we are rattling around with the Rugby Club telling us we can't have our own chef in, we can't arrange our own caterers and asking why we are on site because we turned up to manage the stock in the club shop on a day we hadn't agreed or we can maybe look for another path.

I wouldn't rule either way out.


Yes, we need more facts, but we're a rule taker in either scenario here. The only way out of that situation is financial. Realistically (I say that with the heaviest pinch of salt) we can achieve that at either location, but if we do it at Blackwell we don't have to play in the god forsaken Arena for any amount of time at all.

I hate the arena, and I never want to see us back there under virtually any circumstances other than dire necessity, and that necessity that i would concede, is membership of the football league. It might be a sacrifice worth making if it came to that, but right now, that is beyond our wildest dreams. (Even in this scenario, i'd still want to see major alterations to the Arena in it's existing form).


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:47 am 
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Thing is people are massively over simplifying things.

"Why can't we just use our own caterers"

- Well the rugby club will have commitments to it's staff in terms of hours and salary. If we have no need of their services we will effectively be either cutting the hours of their staff (who are likely members of family / friends of members) so you can see why they would protect their interests.

"Why can't we keep all the wet sales"

- Well there are costs, and there is also an opportunity cost for the rugby club. They will have paid for the cost of sales (so that needs covering) plus all the time we are using the facility they cannot have functions / other bar users. So miss out on the profits from these.

Ultimately given we have been there for 2 years now it should be pretty easy to see from the figures what their net profit was pre us being there, what their net profit was after us being there. They deserve compensation for primacy of tenure and that they can't fulfil potentially members bookings on days we are there.

I would be quite surprised if the net figure came out "materially" different to what we are paying now, but I doubt that the facts would be enough to sway the "us v them" mentality which has come about through fiction and rumour.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:25 am 
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lo36789 wrote:
Thing is people are massively over simplifying things.

"Why can't we just use our own caterers"

- Well the rugby club will have commitments to it's staff in terms of hours and salary. If we have no need of their services we will effectively be either cutting the hours of their staff (who are likely members of family / friends of members) so you can see why they would protect their interests.

"Why can't we keep all the wet sales"

- Well there are costs, and there is also an opportunity cost for the rugby club. They will have paid for the cost of sales (so that needs covering) plus all the time we are using the facility they cannot have functions / other bar users. So miss out on the profits from these.

Ultimately given we have been there for 2 years now it should be pretty easy to see from the figures what their net profit was pre us being there, what their net profit was after us being there. They deserve compensation for primacy of tenure and that they can't fulfil potentially members bookings on days we are there.

I would be quite surprised if the net figure came out "materially" different to what we are paying now, but I doubt that the facts would be enough to sway the "us v them" mentality which has come about through fiction and rumour.


I also really question how much folks think this stuff is worth. I'd bet at most on a match day, the match bar takes a couple of grand. We probably take a few hundred of that, and by the time the product is paid for and wages paid for the staff, i reckon the rugby club probably only makes a few hundred as well. How many beer and pies do you think they're selling exactly? It's not enough to change the financial stability of the club, and frankly, they own the clubhouse. We would not get any more favourable a deal at the Arena, unless we outright bought the bar.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:43 am 
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I think it all boils down to ultimately we do not bring that much money into the club.

Crowds have been poor this season, but so has the football at times so its normal for gates to drop, but it's so damaging for the club.

For example, we had 2,286 in against York, decent crowd but 200 paying punters down on the same fixture last year in January. We play Ashton three days later and the crowd was 1,400, 800 people down on the boxing day. (I understand that the crowd was never ever going to be anywhere near boxing day's but to not even break 1,500 after a great win and whilst it was holiday season was disappointing)

The we have the awful display against York on new years day, then we play Kiddermister at home. Decent opposition, full time team, challenging for the play offs and us, apart from the York away game, looking a lot better than we had a month earlier. Crowd of 1,123, 300 down on the Ashton game a few weeks earlier. (I know it's January etc etc, just pointing out the figures)

We have 8/900 season tickets holders that I believe are in the attendance, so the Kidderminster game we have maybe 2/300 paying people through the gate. If a third of those were kids/concessions then we will have likely made very little money from that game.

In addition to this Craig Morley said in the last podcast that we are having to turn people away from Hospitality due to not having the capacity, which loses us valuable revenue.

In the last six years we've achieved so much:

- Three promotions
- Two play off finishes
- Paid of £330k debt when we bought the club in 2012
- Survived playing 12 miles out of town for 4.5 years
- Returned home
- Had that horrendous number removed from our name
- Raised over £1 million
- Set up our own academy

And we still seem to constantly struggle, as we exist in a football world that has clubs with benefactors happy to plunge money into football clubs with no chance of ever getting the monies back. It puts you at a monumental disadvantage when you try and exist on what you generate.

It would help however if we could win a few cup matches but we've got a major psychological block when it comes to that and cannot see it happening the short/medium term future.


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