Small clubs in the north west

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Mister e
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Small clubs in the north west

Post by Mister e » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:16 pm

It seems like the greed of the premiership is starting to filter down and cause clubs at grass roots football league level terminal damage in the region of the billionaire owned Manchester clubs and Liverpool we could soon be saying farewell to one time fa cup winners bury. Apparently Bolton Wanderers another proud traditional club are on the brink of going under and there are doubts has if Macclesfield town and Oldham athletic will make it to the end of the season. Thank heavens for our fan owned model. Let's hope that we never return to the days of Dodgy investors chancers and asset strippers.

Gow9900
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by Gow9900 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:14 pm

Add to that Blackburn Rovers that are £100m in debt to their owners, it feels like football league finances are on a cliff edge at the moment.

We just have to be patient, realistic and look to grow slowly and sensibly, it might not suit a lot of people but if we want to do things properly then it’s going to take time.

My opinion
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by My opinion » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:25 pm

I have little time for either side to be honest.
Clearly remember Bolton when Phil Garside was in charge during their time in the top flight, He put the suggestion forward to the premier league to close and prevent promotion into that league.
If I remember correctly he did the same with the Championship when Bolton were relegated.
As for Bury, did they not overspend last season in their efforts to get promotion.

lo36789
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by lo36789 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:25 am

My opinion wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:25 pm
As for Bury, did they not overspend last season in their efforts to get promotion.
They did but that is not really too dissimilar to what we did under Reynolds, Houghton or Singh we just failed to get promotion despite our overspend.

I think Andy Holt at Accrington possible called out the issues at Bury at point they sold their stadium. I may be conflating the issue as I am trying to recall the thread from quite a few months ago.

I think if the just of the story they got a new owner - I think he paid £1. He then asset stripped what actual assets Bury had (Gigg Lane) used some funds to pay for promotion and is now holding out for a profit on his £1 investment for a club with less assets than when he bought it.

As is always the case the fans aren’t to blame it’s a single person - the fans are to blame if they knowingly decide to relinquish control to single owners from a position of having control given the weight of evidence that these things can happen...we would do well to remember that.

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:27 am

SPOT ON LO.

I like our fan ownership model. All being well we should never again be at the whim of any dodgy "business" person, and if that means staying in this league for another decade then so be it.

To all those who who considered Rajed Strings getting involved with Darlo again I say give your head a wobble - Gray/Hodgie/Darlopete/others..
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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QUAKERMAN2
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by QUAKERMAN2 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:29 am

My opinion wrote:I have little time for either side to be honest.
Clearly remember Bolton when Phil Garside was in charge during their time in the top flight, He put the suggestion forward to the premier league to close and prevent promotion into that league.
If I remember correctly he did the same with the Championship when Bolton were relegated.
As for Bury, did they not overspend last season in their efforts to get promotion.
Read somewhere they were paying one player £8k a week, absolutely crazy and little wonder they are facing the trapdoor.Only have until 23rd August to come up with something apparently so not looking good.Thank god we have people like DJ looking after our affairs.

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spen666
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by spen666 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:14 am

lo36789 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:25 am
My opinion wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:25 pm
As for Bury, did they not overspend last season in their efforts to get promotion.
....

I think Andy Holt at Accrington possible called out the issues at Bury at point they sold their stadium. I may be conflating the issue as I am trying to recall the thread from quite a few months ago.

I think if the just of the story they got a new owner - I think he paid £1. He then asset stripped what actual assets Bury had (Gigg Lane) used some funds to pay for promotion and is now holding out for a profit on his £1 investment for a club with less assets than when he bought it.

….

In addition to the above, I am lead to believe the "sale" of the stadium was from the football club to the new owner in his own name or a company controlled effectively by him. He also loaned club money at huge rates of interest rather than put money into club. Thus club were crippled paying his loan interest and had lost their ground.

There is a lot of speculation he wants the club to fail - hence his not providing the EFL with information to allow them to lift the ban- so that he can then redevelop the ground for housing/ retail and walk away with a huge profit.

H1987
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by H1987 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:56 am

These are all lessons to why, if any private investors come forward for DFC, we have to be strong and insist the fans remain influential, with a veto to stop any shenanigans. We are a sustainable club now, and long may it continue :thumbup: I firmly believe we can still succeed this way, but it does require a degree of patience and understanding.

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Spyman
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by Spyman » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:08 am

The thing is, regardless of whether we stay fan owned or have a wealthy owner, we will eventually find our level.

Fan owned we are probably close to our level. With some luck we can probably rise another level and at an absolute push at some stage return to League 2 although probably only for a very short time if at all. We'll always have a club though and can scale up and down as we can afford to.

How high you can go with external ownership depends on who that owner is, but brings the risk of it all falling down around us as we've seen before and are seeing with the examples in this discussion. Maybe we'd win the Champions League - who knows. In a way what's the point in wanting to get to the next level if you don't want to go all the way to the very top!

I'll take our ownership model thanks.

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On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

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divas
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by divas » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:13 am

Spyman wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:08 am
The thing is, regardless of whether we stay fan owned or have a wealthy owner, we will eventually find our level.

Fan owned we are probably close to our level. With some luck we can probably rise another level and at an absolute push at some stage return to League 2 although probably only for a very short time if at all. We'll always have a club though and can scale up and down as we can afford to.

How high you can go with external ownership depends on who that owner is, but brings the risk of it all falling down around us as we've seen before and are seeing with the examples in this discussion. Maybe we'd win the Champions League - who knows. In a way what's the point in wanting to get to the next level if you don't want to go all the way to the very top!

I'll take our ownership model thanks.

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I personally feel that too much is made of the level that you play at in the lower reaches. Of course fans want success and to win games but you’ll always get to a level whereby you can’t compete and need to drop lower to compete again.

For me it’s building a club we can be proud of, one that’s a pleasure to come and support each week regardless of division or opposition (within reason). At the moment having somewhere to play where fans enjoy the overall experience and not just two 45 minute halves of football that can be accessible to everyone in the local community regardless of their situation has to be the primary focus.

real_darlo_85
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by real_darlo_85 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:17 am

divas wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:13 am
Spyman wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:08 am
The thing is, regardless of whether we stay fan owned or have a wealthy owner, we will eventually find our level.

Fan owned we are probably close to our level. With some luck we can probably rise another level and at an absolute push at some stage return to League 2 although probably only for a very short time if at all. We'll always have a club though and can scale up and down as we can afford to.

How high you can go with external ownership depends on who that owner is, but brings the risk of it all falling down around us as we've seen before and are seeing with the examples in this discussion. Maybe we'd win the Champions League - who knows. In a way what's the point in wanting to get to the next level if you don't want to go all the way to the very top!

I'll take our ownership model thanks.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
I personally feel that too much is made of the level that you play at in the lower reaches. Of course fans want success and to win games but you’ll always get to a level whereby you can’t compete and need to drop lower to compete again.

For me it’s building a club we can be proud of, one that’s a pleasure to come and support each week regardless of division or opposition (within reason). At the moment having somewhere to play where fans enjoy the overall experience and not just two 45 minute halves of football that can be accessible to everyone in the local community regardless of their situation has to be the primary focus.
I've always maintained that at some point the current financial structures in football will significantly topple and change. We will see further clubs fall, as they continue to try and keep pace with those in the PL and Championship and those which do will most likely go to the wall eventually. However, the flip side is that we could be a club that benefits from this evolution and should be a club that the likes of Bury should aspire to become should the worst happen.
"The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It is a very mean and nasty place and it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't how hard you hit; it's about how hard you can get hit, and keep moving forward. How much you can take, and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done!"

H1987
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by H1987 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:07 am

The super league will happen. It's just an amount of time. The money will fall out of the layers below, but perhaps that is for the best in the long run for the domestic game. I've absolutely no interest in the top 4 of England, Spain, Italy and Germany playing each other on loop. The champions league in it's modern format has created a monster. Let them have it, i won't be watching. Sadly, enough of the 'global' audience will, so TV money will prop it up.

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by shildonlad » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:52 am

spen666 wrote:
lo36789 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:25 am
My opinion wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:25 pm
As for Bury, did they not overspend last season in their efforts to get promotion.
....

I think Andy Holt at Accrington possible called out the issues at Bury at point they sold their stadium. I may be conflating the issue as I am trying to recall the thread from quite a few months ago.

I think if the just of the story they got a new owner - I think he paid £1. He then asset stripped what actual assets Bury had (Gigg Lane) used some funds to pay for promotion and is now holding out for a profit on his £1 investment for a club with less assets than when he bought it.

….

In addition to the above, I am lead to believe the "sale" of the stadium was from the football club to the new owner in his own name or a company controlled effectively by him. He also loaned club money at huge rates of interest rather than put money into club. Thus club were crippled paying his loan interest and had lost their ground.

There is a lot of speculation he wants the club to fail - hence his not providing the EFL with information to allow them to lift the ban- so that he can then redevelop the ground for housing/ retail and walk away with a huge profit.
Sickening if true. I did wonder if the ground was owned by the council or some business man not connected to the club which if was the case would a least give a phoenix club a head start. Whilst some mock the international stadium at gateshead and the fact the club dont own it was it, if they did things could have got like bury with the cowboys they had. A council who own a stadium and have time for the football club can often be a good thing, keeps it going for football on the event of bad owners
I may not live in the north east anymore but i still support the north east teams

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by EDJOHNS » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:53 pm

QUAKERMAN2 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:29 am
My opinion wrote:I have little time for either side to be honest.
Clearly remember Bolton when Phil Garside was in charge during their time in the top flight, He put the suggestion forward to the premier league to close and prevent promotion into that league.
If I remember correctly he did the same with the Championship when Bolton were relegated.
As for Bury, did they not overspend last season in their efforts to get promotion.
Read somewhere they were paying one player £8k a week, absolutely crazy and little wonder they are facing the trapdoor.Only have until 23rd August to come up with something apparently so not looking good.Thank god we have people like DJ looking after our affairs.

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"Payed 1 player 8 grand a week"? The problem is that players have not been paid for up to 5 months. You can offer someone 100 grand a week if you are not going to pay them.

Mister e
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by Mister e » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:15 pm

I wonder if the bury supporters could get their council to put a compulsory purchase order on gigg lane. Having played there for over one hundred years surely it is either a listed building or one of high historical interest.

tdk1
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by tdk1 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:40 pm

Wasn't there a type of 'site of community importance' status put on some footba grounds which could stop this?

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divas
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by divas » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:50 pm

Yeah you can register as an ACV - Asset of Community Value which means that once listed as Assets of Community Value with the local authority, the local community will be informed if they are listed for sale within the five year listing period. The community can then enact the Community Right to Bid, which gives them a moratorium period of six months to determine if they can raise the finance to purchase the asset.

But ultimately unless the cash is available to buy it could still be sold on

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by tdk1 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Does it give you any right to block a planning application on it? As I imagine for Bury that would be more useful.

murtonquaker
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by murtonquaker » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:40 pm

I personally believe there should be a rule in place that says an Individual can separate the Ground from the Club.

If the Club dont own the ground, then it should be owned by the Local Authority or Fans Groups.

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Darlo_Pete
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by Darlo_Pete » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:18 pm

Things looking bad now for Bolton, as their manager of 3 years resigns.

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by quaker4life » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:37 am

tdk1 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:40 pm
Wasn't there a type of 'site of community importance' status put on some footba grounds which could stop this?
If I recall rightly Kettering Town Supporters Trust attempted to gain ACV status for Rockingham Road but it was rejected as it was derelict and property developers had already made substantially higher bids for it, predictably it was demolished to make way for housing a couple of years ago.

Unfortunately it is not a guaranteed safeguard for Gigg Lane or any ground for that matter should the worse happen, however I remember back in 2006 Wrexham's owner attempted to evict them from the Racecourse Ground but it was contested in the high court and the ground was returned to them.

Hopefully there'll be some good news for both Bolton and Bury soon.
love it! wrote:Considering we are Darlington 1883 I'm happy that we are named correctly

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by LoidLucan » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:46 am

If Bury go under it won't be for the lack of effort. They've managed to get a huge amount of national TV coverage, including live BBC broadcasts today and Government ministers getting involved in a way that few other clubs plunged into the mire have managed. There's huge pressure to pull it back from the brink. There seems to a campaign to try to shame the local Premier League big boys into somehow opening their wallets for the crisis-hit poor relations.

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by jjljks » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:55 am

LoidLucan wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:46 am
If Bury go under it won't be for the lack of effort. They've managed to get a huge amount of national TV coverage, including live BBC broadcasts today and Government ministers getting involved in a way that few other clubs plunged into the mire have managed. There's huge pressure to pull it back from the brink.
Yes, I don't remember DFC getting anywhere near the same amount of attention when we were in trouble. Mark Pallios (Tranmere) hit the nail on the head when he said EFL did not do enough to stop an asset stripper buying the club for £1

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by lo36789 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:03 am

We were in the National League at the time not League One and we hadn’t been blocked from playing fixtures.

I think if is pretty obvious why Bury would get more attention.

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by spen666 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:13 am

jjljks wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:55 am
LoidLucan wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:46 am
If Bury go under it won't be for the lack of effort. They've managed to get a huge amount of national TV coverage, including live BBC broadcasts today and Government ministers getting involved in a way that few other clubs plunged into the mire have managed. There's huge pressure to pull it back from the brink.
Yes, I don't remember DFC getting anywhere near the same amount of attention when we were in trouble. Mark Pallios (Tranmere) hit the nail on the head when he said EFL did not do enough to stop an asset stripper buying the club for £1
I am not sure the EFL can do much as its a matter of company law and therefore governed by the laws of England, not the EFL or the FA. All they can do is refuse to allow a club to compete in their competitions if they don't approve of the owner. They can't actually stop someone buying a company

Perhaps the EFL and FA need to be seeking more help from BEIS and the Police to investigate and where appropriate to prosecute owners such as the one at Bury

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loan_star
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by loan_star » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:24 am

spen666 wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:13 am
jjljks wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:55 am
LoidLucan wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:46 am
If Bury go under it won't be for the lack of effort. They've managed to get a huge amount of national TV coverage, including live BBC broadcasts today and Government ministers getting involved in a way that few other clubs plunged into the mire have managed. There's huge pressure to pull it back from the brink.
Yes, I don't remember DFC getting anywhere near the same amount of attention when we were in trouble. Mark Pallios (Tranmere) hit the nail on the head when he said EFL did not do enough to stop an asset stripper buying the club for £1
I am not sure the EFL can do much as its a matter of company law and therefore governed by the laws of England, not the EFL or the FA. All they can do is refuse to allow a club to compete in their competitions if they don't approve of the owner. They can't actually stop someone buying a company

Perhaps the EFL and FA need to be seeking more help from BEIS and the Police to investigate and where appropriate to prosecute owners such as the one at Bury
From what I understand Dale took over mid season so if the league had refused permission then it would have meant a club dropping out mid season, thereby making it more of a farce than it already is.

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:28 am

Quote from Phil Neville from the BBC's news website....

"Bury-born Neville's mother Jill last week resigned as club secretary; his late father Neville was a director.

"Common sense has to prevail," said ex-Manchester United defender Neville.

"One man cannot stop one football club, which has hundreds of years of history, going out of existence.

"It's probably the biggest day in their history. Today Bury, the town, might not have a football club. It's absolutely disgraceful."


The line about "one man" particularly caught my eye!
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

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Spyman
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by Spyman » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:39 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:Quote from Phil Neville from the BBC's news website....

"Bury-born Neville's mother Jill last week resigned as club secretary; his late father Neville was a director.

"Common sense has to prevail," said ex-Manchester United defender Neville.

"One man cannot stop one football club, which has hundreds of years of history, going out of existence.

"It's probably the biggest day in their history. Today Bury, the town, might not have a football club. It's absolutely disgraceful."


The line about "one man" particularly caught my eye!
Fairly clear why Bury have had more media attention then: the Neville's.

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On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

DC

shildonlad
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by shildonlad » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:39 pm

LoidLucan wrote:If Bury go under it won't be for the lack of effort. They've managed to get a huge amount of national TV coverage, including live BBC broadcasts today and Government ministers getting involved in a way that few other clubs plunged into the mire have managed. There's huge pressure to pull it back from the brink. There seems to a campaign to try to shame the local Premier League big boys into somehow opening their wallets for the crisis-hit poor relations.
But what can the pl big hitters do? The owner seems auckward with regards to selling and imagine if say man city have them some money, it would go into a black hole with the current owner
I may not live in the north east anymore but i still support the north east teams

lo36789
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by lo36789 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:42 pm

Spen is actually making a fair point for a change.

Unless the FA / EFL made each company within the FA a subsidiary of it - or took a controlling share in each one (and made that the rules) they can’t really control who takes over...

Zero chance of it actually happening so they are a little stuck trying to apply a fit and proper persons test which actually just leaves them open to being blockers and held to ransom over letting a club compete.

Imagine the scenario next time when a club is in admin - the only buyer doesn’t pass fit and proper so EFL basically prevent club from ever playing again until they find a different owner. Who will be seen as the bad guys then? To be honest this seems to be the card that Dale is trying to play now.

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