Small clubs in the north west

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LoidLucan
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by LoidLucan » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:53 pm

I read that 43 of the 51 companies that this Dale character has been involved in have been liquidated. And now he's saying businesses and fans need to chip in £2.7m to save Bury. You'd have to be nuts to hand over a single penny to him. Mind there's a chairman in our league with an even worse background who served a long ban from being a director of any company for dodgy dealings. His club is a car crash waiting to happen.

Darlo Dodger
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by Darlo Dodger » Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:11 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:42 pm
Spen is actually making a fair point for a change.

Unless the FA / EFL made each company within the FA a subsidiary of it - or took a controlling share in each one (and made that the rules) they can’t really control who takes over...

Zero chance of it actually happening so they are a little stuck trying to apply a fit and proper persons test which actually just leaves them open to being blockers and held to ransom over letting a club compete.

Imagine the scenario next time when a club is in admin - the only buyer doesn’t pass fit and proper so EFL basically prevent club from ever playing again until they find a different owner. Who will be seen as the bad guys then? To be honest this seems to be the card that Dale is trying to play now.
The FA have to abide by company law but I would have thought that the FA could require specific ownership / management / funding structures for any team wishing to compete within the FA league structure.

There seem to be fairly well defined repeated issues which arise and cause the financial failure of clubs.

There might be reasons why these cannot always be addressed but the record of financial failure within the FA controlled leagues does suggest that the FA is failing to take these seriously or address the issues properly.

I am no expert in this but ideas which come immediately to mind are

A. The F A provides financial support for clubs. Is there any reason why they should not differentiate between clubs which follow specific recommended ownership models / structures and those which do not, giving substantially greater financial backing to those following those recommended models (including though not necessarily limited to, fan owned clubs such as n)

B. Some way whereby the significant fixed assets owned by some clubs (generally the stadium or perhaps more precisely, the land it stands on) from being asset stripped from the club. I guess this could be done by requiring clubs to hold this land in a separate trust with specific limited aims which would prohibit asset stripping but allow the disposal as long as the sale proceeds are used to provide equivalent or better facilities. I can see that this could be very difficult but one reason to buy a loss making business for £1.00 might be to acquire fixed assets which can be sold off at a profit if, as and when the company fails.

C. The FA does I think have rules about budgets and funding but whatever they are thy are clearly inadequate since so many clubs have suffered the sort of problems they are aim d at preventing.

I do not think that it is impossible to deal with these problems but whether there is any real political will within the FA to deal with them is another matter altogether.

As others have already mentioned I for one am extremely happy with the ownership model we now have and even happier with the management of David Johnston and the team he has built. It is the most impressive management team I have ever seen at DFC.

lo36789
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by lo36789 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:51 pm

Everything you mentioned is great - and the threat is you can’t compete in the competition unless these thing are as we say.

And then what if owners don’t and it is mid way through the season. What is the view of the masses if a team are expelled because they suddenly breach one of these regs (may be because their attendances are lower than expected so they are suddenly not in budget).

The FA do not control the leagues. The only FA Competitions are the FA Cup, Trophy and Vase. The EFL and PL are separate effectively profitable companies who administer their competition.

They pay an annual affiliation fee of to the FA every year to register their competition.

1. So clubs who are fan owned get money for what purpose? How does that prevent the current situation at Bury all the issues with clubs has been those with single owner models so this wouldn’t stop the issues which have happened.

2. What if clubs don’t own those assets now. A lot of clubs have council owned grounds or others arrangements due to the financing of their ground - how can you enforce that all clubs have a stadium. Look even Inter Milan and AC Milan share a ground so it’s even at the top top level clubs don’t necessary own their stadium.

3. Again rules around budgets could only be enforce through expulsion from competition. The only competitions that FA could remove you from are theirs - the EFL Control membership and participation in their competitions. How do you manage this though - Darlington has a budget for however many years and we still made a loss how do you actually say “you have brought less money in from ticket sales than you thought, as a result of that your committed expenditure on players is over what you can afford so now you can’t play your next home game”

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by Darlogramps » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:11 pm

LoidLucan wrote:If Bury go under it won't be for the lack of effort. They've managed to get a huge amount of national TV coverage, including live BBC broadcasts today and Government ministers getting involved in a way that few other clubs plunged into the mire have managed. There's huge pressure to pull it back from the brink. There seems to a campaign to try to shame the local Premier League big boys into somehow opening their wallets for the crisis-hit poor relations.
Don’t understand why it’s the Premier League’s big boys who have the responsibility for bailing clubs out.

Sole responsibility lies with the owners of each club. Bury fans weren’t complaining when they were spending big, living beyond their means and enjoying success.
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by Vodka_Vic » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:40 pm

LoidLucan wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:53 pm
I read that 43 of the 51 companies that this Dale character has been involved in have been liquidated. And now he's saying businesses and fans need to chip in £2.7m to save Bury. You'd have to be nuts to hand over a single penny to him. Mind there's a chairman in our league with an even worse background who served a long ban from being a director of any company for dodgy dealings. His club is a car crash waiting to happen.

Trying to work out who this is.

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by LoidLucan » Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:04 pm

Then google Stephen Cleeve now at King's Lynn. Previously had an eight-year ban as a company director after a terrible business record that left loads of people out of pocket. Look at the Thisismoney report on him. He also tried to take over at Wrexham and is actually a Chelsea fan. He was chosen as a UKIP candidate before pulling out when details of his colourful career emerged.

He has described King's Lynn as a "sleeping giant" and has said he wants to take them into the EFL.

Last season he said he had to fund a £140K budget shortfall with personal loans but he wouldn't expect to have it repaid unless there was a major windfall into the club... in which case he might consider it. You tell me if you would sleep soundly with him pulling the strings at your club. Maybe I'm wrong and a leopard can change its spots...

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by lo36789 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:50 am

Darlogramps wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:11 pm
Sole responsibility lies with the owners of each club. Bury fans weren’t complaining when they were spending big, living beyond their means and enjoying success.
They weren’t but at the same time - so what if they did it wouldn’t really make a blind bit of difference to the outcome. It feels a bit unfair to expect fans to not enjoy a successful season.

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by shildonlad » Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:21 am

LoidLucan wrote:Then google Stephen Cleeve now at King's Lynn. Previously had an eight-year ban as a company director after a terrible business record that left loads of people out of pocket. Look at the Thisismoney report on him. He also tried to take over at Wrexham and is actually a Chelsea fan. He was chosen as a UKIP candidate before pulling out when details of his colourful career emerged.

He has described King's Lynn as a "sleeping giant" and has said he wants to take them into the EFL.

Last season he said he had to fund a £140K budget shortfall with personal loans but he wouldn't expect to have it repaid unless there was a major windfall into the club... in which case he might consider it. You tell me if you would sleep soundly with him pulling the strings at your club. Maybe I'm wrong and a leopard can change its spots...
Crazy if true a southern league club could have such a shortfall
I may not live in the north east anymore but i still support the north east teams

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by jjljks » Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:52 am

Surely a massive failure of due diligence here. The club are heading for trouble with Cleeve in charge.

Meanwhile for Bury the clock ticked past the deadline and out of left field, a saviour has materialise. Hope that they really do want to have a football club & not raising false hopes in the hearts of Bury fans.

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by spen666 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:43 am

jjljks wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:52 am
Surely a massive failure of due diligence here. The club are heading for trouble with Cleeve in charge.
....

It's the buyer who does due diligence.

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by Darlogramps » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:04 am

lo36789 wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:11 pm
Sole responsibility lies with the owners of each club. Bury fans weren’t complaining when they were spending big, living beyond their means and enjoying success.
They weren’t but at the same time - so what if they did it wouldn’t really make a blind bit of difference to the outcome. It feels a bit unfair to expect fans to not enjoy a successful season.
Where did I say they shouldn’t? Don’t misrepresent what I’m saying.

Only that they were doing so in full knowledge Bury were living unsustainably.
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by Beano » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:14 am

Darlogramps wrote:
lo36789 wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:11 pm
Sole responsibility lies with the owners of each club. Bury fans weren’t complaining when they were spending big, living beyond their means and enjoying success.
They weren’t but at the same time - so what if they did it wouldn’t really make a blind bit of difference to the outcome. It feels a bit unfair to expect fans to not enjoy a successful season.
Where did I say they shouldn’t? Don’t misrepresent what I’m saying.

Only that they were doing so in full knowledge Bury were living unsustainably.
Correct.

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:15 am

Deep down I was always a little uneasy about Reynolds pumping in huge amounts of money to build that first really good play off team.

It was an enjoyable season, but we paid for it in the long run, and to repeat myself - I much prefer our present status.

The problems at Bury should be a reminder to us all of where we've come from, and why.
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by tdk1 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:47 am

Things like this really do make me think we should never compromise what we have built so far for the sake of an "investor", or sugar daddy, promising the earth. Even if the conference becomes our natural long term home, which I think is feasible, I'd take 50 years like that over one year in league two followed by oblivion.

I think fans need to start opposing unsustainable spending, even when it's resulting in success. There have been plenty of clubs going pop to provide what should be important lessons for others. So few football league clubs turn a profit, I think fans need to be pushing for structural change to bring back wages back into line with income at the lower level of the game.

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by lo36789 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:58 pm

I just think the fans enjoying promotion is irrelevant to the predicament of the club. Like I am not sure what the point is about it.

Should they not have enjoyed it, should they have stopped it, do they deserve to be in current situation, are they not allowed to feel aggrieved because they enjoyed promotion?

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by Darlogramps » Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:15 pm

lo36789 wrote:I just think the fans enjoying promotion is irrelevant to the predicament of the club. Like I am not sure what the point is about it.

Should they not have enjoyed it, should they have stopped it, do they deserve to be in current situation, are they not allowed to feel aggrieved because they enjoyed promotion?
The point is as it says in my posts. Bury fans, who are happy to stick the boot into Steve Dale now (perhaps justifiably so) were nevertheless happy to celebrate the success when they knew their club’s spending was unsustainable.

Don’t overthink it. We know you struggle with thinking as it is.
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by Beano » Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:34 am

Bury allegedly had players on three year deals at 8k a week.

Mental.

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don'tbuythesun
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by don'tbuythesun » Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:53 am

I was at Tranmere when they won promotion and their fans were ecstatic, huge celebrations from a full away end. They've certainly come back down to earth with a bump. It's always the fans who suffer regardless of how aware they are of finances. We could write the book on that!

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by lo36789 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:12 am

Darlogramps wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:15 pm
lo36789 wrote:I just think the fans enjoying promotion is irrelevant to the predicament of the club. Like I am not sure what the point is about it.

Should they not have enjoyed it, should they have stopped it, do they deserve to be in current situation, are they not allowed to feel aggrieved because they enjoyed promotion?
The point is as it says in my posts. Bury fans, who are happy to stick the boot into Steve Dale now (perhaps justifiably so) were nevertheless happy to celebrate the success when they knew their club’s spending was unsustainable.

Don’t overthink it. We know you struggle with thinking as it is.
Well yes - but to what consequence / end / implication are you making that?

So it’s just a bland observation.

Ok. It’s sunny today but on other days it rains.

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Small clubs in the north west

Post by Darlogramps » Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:51 am

lo36789 wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:15 pm
lo36789 wrote:I just think the fans enjoying promotion is irrelevant to the predicament of the club. Like I am not sure what the point is about it.

Should they not have enjoyed it, should they have stopped it, do they deserve to be in current situation, are they not allowed to feel aggrieved because they enjoyed promotion?
The point is as it says in my posts. Bury fans, who are happy to stick the boot into Steve Dale now (perhaps justifiably so) were nevertheless happy to celebrate the success when they knew their club’s spending was unsustainable.

Don’t overthink it. We know you struggle with thinking as it is.
Well yes - but to what consequence / end / implication are you making that?

So it’s just a bland observation.

Ok. It’s sunny today but on other days it rains.
I bet you’re a delight at parties.

“I’ll have a beer”

“But what do you mean by that? What’s the implication of you ordering a beer?”

“Ermmm, I just want a beer.”

“That’s a fairly bland statement.”

The point is pretty simple. Others in this thread like Beano understand it.

Bury fans are decrying Steve Dale for how he’s ran the club. But despite it being plainly obvious they were being run unsustainably, there were no complaints when that was bringing success.

It’s a relevant observation in this thread (which is about Bury). Evidently it doesn’t meet your level of deep intellectual analysis (which has included “eight winners in a decade doesn’t mean the Northern League has dominated the FA Vase” and of course Fylde-gate). But I guess I’ll have to deal with that crushing blow.

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by lo36789 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:29 pm

Terrible analogy really wasn't it. Request for a beer is because you wanted to drink the beer as in there was actually an outcome you wanted from it.

So are you saying that the fans are not entitled to complain now because they should have been complaining last season.

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by lo36789 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:02 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:51 am
and of course Fylde-gate). But I guess I’ll have to deal with that crushing blow.
Ah yes. When I suggested that fans may use a game at The Coasters could be an opportunity for people to have a weekend at the seaside.

Only to be told this was a ridiculous suggestion as their ground being 8 miles from Blackpool pleasure beach was in fact no where near the seaside.

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Small clubs in the north west

Post by Darlogramps » Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:37 pm

lo36789 wrote:Terrible analogy really wasn't it. Request for a beer is because you wanted to drink the beer as in there was actually an outcome you wanted from it.

So are you saying that the fans are not entitled to complain now because they should have been complaining last season.
Fella, it’s not an analogy. I’m mocking you because you’re making a fool of yourself. And you continue to do so.

I see you’re going for the old “So you’re saying....” technique. There are so many reasons that is a flawed argumentative device.

I’m saying exactly what I’m saying. I’ve no idea why you can’t accept that, and want to repackage it as something else. Suggests you’ve got some sort of agenda. Someone else on another thread makes the point about you being contrary for the sake of it.

Everyone else has read, digested and understood the point.
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by don'tbuythesun » Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:12 pm

I think "everyone else" is probably bored by now.

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by Darlogramps » Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:32 pm

don'tbuythesun wrote:I think "everyone else" is probably bored by now.
They can be as bored as they want. If Lo wants to keep questioning it, I’m happy to keep responding.
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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by lo36789 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:11 pm

So personally I think it is harsh to throw "but you didn't mind celebrating promotion" at fans of clubs in these situations, and I think whether they celebrated or not is irrelevant to whether they can feel aggrieved now. I didn't want to assume that you were saying otherwise is all thus checking first.

We feel differently...it's just opinions and perspectives.

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Small clubs in the north west

Post by Darlogramps » Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:47 pm

lo36789 wrote:So personally I think it is harsh to throw "but you didn't mind celebrating promotion" at fans of clubs in these situations, and I think whether they celebrated or not is irrelevant to whether they can feel aggrieved now. I didn't want to assume that you were saying otherwise is all thus checking first.

We feel differently...it's just opinions and perspectives.
Pretty weird way of “checking”, to suggest on three occasions there was an ulterior motive or implication to what I was saying but there we go.

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by shildonlad » Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:54 am

Bury seemed to have been saved at the 11th hour lets hope bolton are as lucky. This would surely be the biggest club to be liquidated during the season. Wonder what would become of ground if the club were wound up
I may not live in the north east anymore but i still support the north east teams

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by jjljks » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:27 am

Very much the final day / hours, sitting in last chance saloon / EU deadline for both Bolton and Bury as EFL declare 17:00 before they expell both clubs.
Both sets of fans and those currently employed by the clubs must be hoping that the EFL are taking their reading off the clock at Blackwell Meadows.
The football pyramid is looking more like a Jenga tower or Pick-up-Sticks game in danger of collapse.

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Re: Small clubs in the north west

Post by shildonlad » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:58 am

jjljks wrote:Very much the final day / hours, sitting in last chance saloon / EU deadline for both Bolton and Bury as EFL declare 17:00 before they expell both clubs.
Both sets of fans and those currently employed by the clubs must be hoping that the EFL are taking their reading off the clock at Blackwell Meadows.
The football pyramid is looking more like a Jenga tower or Pick-up-Sticks game in danger of collapse.
Hasn’t a buyer come in for bury?
I may not live in the north east anymore but i still support the north east teams

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