Season VOIDED

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loan_star
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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by loan_star » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:56 pm

Considering next season could well be affected too then its my view that this season should be concluded properly when appropriate.
The FA, if they have the power to void things, also have the power to ban all transfers of players between clubs until the season is concluded, even if the contracts are due to end in may.
Next season could run from november onwards. It would take a few years to get back to the august start but it keeps the integrity of the competition intact.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by comeondarlo » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:16 pm

loan_star wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:56 pm
Considering next season could well be affected too then its my view that this season should be concluded properly when appropriate.
The FA, if they have the power to void things, also have the power to ban all transfers of players between clubs until the season is concluded, even if the contracts are due to end in may.
Next season could run from november onwards. It would take a few years to get back to the august start but it keeps the integrity of the competition intact.
By far the better option, integrity of football is in question here. I hope South Shields and the like sue the arse off the league once this is all over. Voiding the season literally makes no sense whatsoever and is by far the worst option.
Seeing the likes of Bradford PA celebrating makes me sick to my stomach!

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Old Git » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:39 pm

comeondarlo wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:16 pm
loan_star wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:56 pm
Considering next season could well be affected too then its my view that this season should be concluded properly when appropriate.
The FA, if they have the power to void things, also have the power to ban all transfers of players between clubs until the season is concluded, even if the contracts are due to end in may.
Next season could run from november onwards. It would take a few years to get back to the august start but it keeps the integrity of the competition intact.
By far the better option, integrity of football is in question here. I hope South Shields and the like sue the arse off the league once this is all over. Voiding the season literally makes no sense whatsoever and is by far the worst option.
Seeing the likes of Bradford PA celebrating makes me sick to my stomach!
Quite wrong for me.
Why would you want to make the effects of Coronavirus last for several years?
By far the best option is finish this season now to give the best chance of returning to normal in August or as soon as possible thereafter.
Really not helpful to hope South Shields sue the league over this. By the way think it would be the FA .
Are Bradford PA celebrating? If so it is in bad taste and they should be ashamed.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by HarrytheQuaker » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:40 pm

comeondarlo wrote:
loan_star wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:56 pm
Considering next season could well be affected too then its my view that this season should be concluded properly when appropriate.
The FA, if they have the power to void things, also have the power to ban all transfers of players between clubs until the season is concluded, even if the contracts are due to end in may.
Next season could run from november onwards. It would take a few years to get back to the august start but it keeps the integrity of the competition intact.
By far the better option, integrity of football is in question here. I hope South Shields and the like sue the arse off the league once this is all over. Voiding the season literally makes no sense whatsoever and is by far the worst option.
Seeing the likes of Bradford PA celebrating makes me sick to my stomach!
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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by lo36789 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:08 pm

Was going to say what is the point suing the league they had no say in the matter.

FWIW the FA handbook (http://www.thefa.com/-/media/files/thef ... vised.ashx) has two clauses in it.

One states that the playing season must be finished by 1st June (8a) and secondly that the Association have the power to suspend the game either sectionally or entirely.

Also under the national League system (section 2) it effectively says that within that system promoted and relegation operates on a basis determined by the Council.

Effectively the FA Council as per their rules have the power to basically choose when promotes / relegation applies and also they can suspend the game entirely.

Basically my interpretation is that the FA have done what is in the rules.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:02 pm

It would be good if the original poster renamed this thread. It's a tad misleading.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by bga » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:48 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:08 pm
Was going to say what is the point suing the league they had no say in the matter.

FWIW the FA handbook (http://www.thefa.com/-/media/files/thef ... vised.ashx) has two clauses in it.

One states that the playing season must be finished by 1st June (8a) and secondly that the Association have the power to suspend the game either sectionally or entirely.

Also under the national League system (section 2) it effectively says that within that system promoted and relegation operates on a basis determined by the Council.

Effectively the FA Council as per their rules have the power to basically choose when promotes / relegation applies and also they can suspend the game entirely.

Basically my interpretation is that the FA have done what is in the rules.
Wouldn't it be really radical if the FA actually consulted us the fans on what we would like to see happen this season and the effect this might have on next season? Personally I would like to see this season concluded however long it takes even if that delays next season. At least then we all know where we stand.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by joejaques » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:58 pm

bga wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:48 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:08 pm
Was going to say what is the point suing the league they had no say in the matter.

FWIW the FA handbook (http://www.thefa.com/-/media/files/thef ... vised.ashx) has two clauses in it.

One states that the playing season must be finished by 1st June (8a) and secondly that the Association have the power to suspend the game either sectionally or entirely.

Also under the national League system (section 2) it effectively says that within that system promoted and relegation operates on a basis determined by the Council.

Effectively the FA Council as per their rules have the power to basically choose when promotes / relegation applies and also they can suspend the game entirely.

Basically my interpretation is that the FA have done what is in the rules.
Wouldn't it be really radical if the FA actually consulted us the fans on what we would like to see happen this season and the effect this might have on next season? Personally I would like to see this season concluded however long it takes even if that delays next season. At least then we all know where we stand.
I doubt the FA even realise that fans have any opinion beyond club tribalism. :roll:
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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Geordie Quaker » Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:46 pm

Consulting with fans across the country would be painstakingly slow and tell them nothing new.

The shock findings woudl be:

- Fans of clubs like Shields think we should find a way to complete the season;
- Clubs like BPA are surprisingly content;
- Everyone in between are torn between playing it out and voiding it.

I hate the FA and even I can see they are getting an unfair hearing here. People need to remind themselves just how unprecedented this season is and that there is no single solution that satisfies all parties.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by lo36789 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:46 pm

Geordie Quaker wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:46 pm
Everyone in between are torn between playing it out and voiding it.
Or indifferent in the scheme of things - the thing with football no matter what happens the year before it all starts again from zero and with that new season optimism / hope and what has gone before doesn't really matter.

I always thought this might have been the outcome since the only tools at the FA disposal is to cancel. PPG doesn't exist as a concept in any rule book.

The only other alternative I could have thought. I thought there was a rule in the depths of competition which effectively enables match outcomes to be decided by a toss of a coin - so that gave the chance for the rest of the season to be played out in coin tosses. I think this only applies when league positions are absolutely identical and can't be split by any of the normal means.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:59 pm

You're saying the F.A. are a bunch of Tossers?
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by joejaques » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:16 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:59 pm
You're saying the F.A. are a bunch of Tossers?
:lol: :D :roll:
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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Quaker85 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:31 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Geordie Quaker wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:46 pm
Everyone in between are torn between playing it out and voiding it.
Or indifferent in the scheme of things - the thing with football no matter what happens the year before it all starts again from zero and with that new season optimism / hope and what has gone before doesn't really matter.

I always thought this might have been the outcome since the only tools at the FA disposal is to cancel. PPG doesn't exist as a concept in any rule book.

The only other alternative I could have thought. I thought there was a rule in the depths of competition which effectively enables match outcomes to be decided by a toss of a coin - so that gave the chance for the rest of the season to be played out in coin tosses. I think this only applies when league positions are absolutely identical and can't be split by any of the normal means.
Except the FA Cup where PPG is used to decide which step 6 clubs gain entry into the competition.


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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by lo36789 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:38 pm

Are you sure? I thought there were just extra prelims on extra prelims that take place?

The point is in the handbook to settle the season there is nothing in that rulebook re application of PPG. But there is a concept of FA Council having capacity to suspend the season and determine as hoc application of promotion and relegation.

I am not sure about nullifying and voiding what has happened though - that seems to not exist. I actually think the leagues could declare a champion if they really wanted.

Records of matches played I think belong to the league's themselves rather than the FA and when it comes to club records again they surely belong to the clubs.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Shed7 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:40 pm

The same South Shields chairman who appealed to the FA for their FA Vase game against Morpeth to be replayed, despite the floodlights going off with 10 mins to go and his side losing 4-2 at the time. The result couldn’t and shouldn’t stand in his eyes. Different story now though!

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Quaker85 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:45 pm

The FA Cup format can only accommodate 736 clubs (from memory) and there are far more clubs than that down to step 6 level. PPG is the metric used by the FA.


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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by shawry » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:12 pm

Id be inclined to finish this season when they can, and use the time from now to work out a different way for next season to work so that there is still some football, even if its reduced to playing each team once.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by murtonquakerfan » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:18 pm

While I understand the FA's decision, I do think they have been a bit hasty and quick to make this decision and the likes of South Shields and Jersey are right to feel hard done, moreso for Jersey who have had 100% league record this season, I'd be devastated if it was us in that position.

I believe the season should be finished come what may, but theres a couple of ways I think the FA should have gone for to settle it

1. Finalise the table on PPG, with the top 2 going up and scrapping the play-offs for a season

2. Predict the outcome of games and come up with a predicted final table, again promoting the top 2 and scrapping the Play-Offs

If we could get this season over by the end of September, then get 20-21 Season underway about the end of October/early November, for a shortened season split every division into 2 groups from the EPL, EFL down to non-League, teams in each group play each other twice and the top of each group would Play-Off for the League Title and positions 2 and 3 in each group going into the Play-Offs.

Dont know if that would work or if it would be possible.

Whatever does happen though, not everyone will be happy with the outcome
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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by quaker4life » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:24 pm

murtonquakerfan wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:18 pm

If we could get this season over by the end of September, then get 20-21 Season underway about the end of October/early November, for a shortened season split every division into 2 groups from the EPL, EFL down to non-League, teams in each group play each other twice and the top of each group would Play-Off for the League Title and positions 2 and 3 in each group going into the Play-Offs.

Dont know if that would work or if it would be possible.


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A similar suggestion was made elsewhere, it won't happen if this thing runs beyond August there's not a chance this season is being completed.
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Season VOIDED

Post by Darlogramps » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:02 am

The trouble for the FA is they were damned if did do something and damned if they didn’t.

The fact any contracts expired at the end of April, combined with non-league clubs not being able to pay essential bills without having income, left them with about 2-3 weeks to make a decision.

If non-league matches were to restart at the end of April, as is currently the plan (however optimistic that may be), clubs will want a couple of weeks to prepare for that. It’s not realistic after a six-week break to say on the Monday: “Right we’re going again on Saturday”.

Had the FA left it as long as possible, people would have criticised them for a lack of clarity (we saw on here with jjljks demanding they “Sort it out ASAP” how some fans view it).

Go early to try and provide certainty, and the clubs close to promotion (I.E. South Shields) will react angrily.

Whether the FA should have gone as far as they did in wiping out last season is another matter (personally I think it’s excessive and would have gone down the PPG route - extending the season indefinitely isn’t viable at that level).

But I think whatever decision the FA made, and indeed whatever further decisions are made, won’t please everyone. As someone pointed out, self-interest will dictate a club’s reaction more than anything else.
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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Darlogramps » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:18 am

lo36789 wrote:Are you sure? I thought there were just extra prelims on extra prelims that take place?

The point is in the handbook to settle the season there is nothing in that rulebook re application of PPG. But there is a concept of FA Council having capacity to suspend the season and determine as hoc application of promotion and relegation.

I am not sure about nullifying and voiding what has happened though - that seems to not exist. I actually think the leagues could declare a champion if they really wanted.

Records of matches played I think belong to the league's themselves rather than the FA and when it comes to club records again they surely belong to the clubs.
The FA literally settled promotion at Step 4 last season using PPG.

And we’re planning on doing the same this season (and presumably will do the same next season for the “new” campaign”).
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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by lo36789 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:55 am

Darlogramps wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:18 am
The FA literally settled promotion at Step 4 last season using PPG.

And we’re planning on doing the same this season (and presumably will do the same next season for the “new” campaign”).
That is true. Sorry I did mean as a mechanism to finish the season but I suppose actually nobody really cares it would purely be about determining promotion and relegation.

And I suppose they can pretty much do anything within the bounds of "promotion is determined by the council as required from time to time".

Basically the FA Council can decide to promote and relegate whoever they want, whenever they want within the National League System. At their discretion from time to time.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by jjljks » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:40 am

Basically the FA Council can decide to promote and relegate whoever they want, whenever they want within the National League System. At their discretion from time to time.
[/quote]
Just watched "The English Game" where FA board consisted mainly of Old Etonians & seems like the FA rulebook still allows them to do whatever they like, whenever they like without any consideration given to the fans.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Old Git » Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:04 am

Darlogramps wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:02 am
The trouble for the FA is they were damned if did do something and damned if they didn’t.

The fact any contracts expired at the end of April, combined with non-league clubs not being able to pay essential bills without having income, left them with about 2-3 weeks to make a decision.

If non-league matches were to restart at the end of April, as is currently the plan (however optimistic that may be), clubs will want a couple of weeks to prepare for that. It’s not realistic after a six-week break to say on the Monday: “Right we’re going again on Saturday”.

Had the FA left it as long as possible, people would have criticised them for a lack of clarity (we saw on here with jjljks demanding they “Sort it out ASAP” how some fans view it).

Go early to try and provide certainty, and the clubs close to promotion (I.E. South Shields) will react angrily.

Whether the FA should have gone as far as they did in wiping out last season is another matter (personally I think it’s excessive and would have gone down the PPG route - extending the season indefinitely isn’t viable at that level).

But I think whatever decision the FA made, and indeed whatever further decisions are made, won’t please everyone. As someone pointed out, self-interest will dictate a club’s reaction more than anything else.
Excellent post Gramps for once I am in total agreement with you.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by super_les_mcjannet » Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:27 am

Agree whatever decision they make will be wrong for some.

As Darlo are midtable then it makes no real difference to us, however if we were 3rd and on good form whilst 1st and 2nd were stumbling I would hate PPG if it went against us. Also if we were top and they made the season void I would be gutted again.

Basically they have to make a decision and everyone is just going to have to get on with it, life isn't fair and even more so at the moment.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Quaker85 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:57 am

Gutted for Stockton Town. Everyone is totally devastated.


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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by loan_star » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:16 pm

jjljks wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:40 am
Basically the FA Council can decide to promote and relegate whoever they want, whenever they want within the National League System. At their discretion from time to time.
Just watched "The English Game" where FA board consisted mainly of Old Etonians & seems like the FA rulebook still allows them to do whatever they like, whenever they like without any consideration given to the fans.
If you have ever had the misfortune to attend any FA disciplinary hearings you will see first hand how warped they are. Kangaroo courts spring to mind.
They are so stuck up their own arses they have no concept of the real world.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by don'tbuythesun » Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:09 pm

Reflecting on the coin toss idea, 50 years ago Liverpool were tied with Cologne in the European Cup. It went to a third game at Feyenoord's ground, the reds two up but it ended 2-2. Went to a coin toss and big Ron Yeats called tails. The coin stuck on its side so a re toss and the reds went through. Imagine the excitement of televised coin tosses making all these decisions!

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by spen666 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:06 pm

loan_star wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:16 pm
jjljks wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:40 am
Basically the FA Council can decide to promote and relegate whoever they want, whenever they want within the National League System. At their discretion from time to time.
Just watched "The English Game" where FA board consisted mainly of Old Etonians & seems like the FA rulebook still allows them to do whatever they like, whenever they like without any consideration given to the fans.
If you have ever had the misfortune to attend any FA disciplinary hearings you will see first hand how warped they are. Kangaroo courts spring to mind.
They are so stuck up their own arses they have no concept of the real world.
Got to ask the question


What did you do loan_star to have to attend an FA Disciplinary hearing?

PS There is a good argument for saying the hearings are a kangaroo court ( and breach principles of natural justice) as the FA is Prosecutor, judge and jury or if not, they appoint the people to those positions

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by loan_star » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:55 pm

spen666 wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:06 pm

Got to ask the question


What did you do loan_star to have to attend an FA Disciplinary hearing?

PS There is a good argument for saying the hearings are a kangaroo court ( and breach principles of natural justice) as the FA is Prosecutor, judge and jury or if not, they appoint the people to those positions
Had a hearing for myself as a player, been a witness at a hearing for a former manager, and also as a manager myself for my sunday league team.
Each time it didn't matter what evidence was provided, the panel found in favour of the referees version of events.
The last hearing was for a game that a referee abandoned because somebody on the sidelines called him a joke and refused to leave the field as he was just a spectator. Then while me and the opposition manager were discussing what we should do (it was a new situation to us both) the referee came up to me and demanded paying, money I wasn't carrying at the time, somebody shouted "don't pay him he's fucking useless". Nobody had a clue who shouted it as none of us were looking in that direction, but we ended up on a charge of failing to control our players, even though the referee couldn't name the person who said it or what team he was playing for. Their manager stuck up for us at the hearing and even said it could have been one of his players as we were over their side of the pitch. The panel of course found us guilty even though he had no evidence whatsoever, other than hearsay.
The disciplinary panels are just a money making racket. Referees are never wrong.
Theres a case down south of a team being given fines amounting to hundreds because they walked off the pitch when the referee made a racist comment to a player yet hasn't been punished!!! The fines keep going up because they are refusing to pay.

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