Season VOIDED

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Quaker85
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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Quaker85 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:58 am

al_quaker wrote:
Quaker85 wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:20 am
onewayup wrote:The vanarama national league have got to make a decision soon for the sake of the games integrity.
Uncertainty cannot carry on .
Common sense has got to prevail.
End uncertainty now plan for next season .
Or end the uncertainty and plan for the resumption of this season at a later date.
How would that end uncertainty with respect to, for example, expiring contracts? Or even paying wages if the games are to be played behind closed doors?
I’m sure South Shields, Stockton, Shildon and Hebburn could live with the uncertainty. All they have now is a load of bills and nothing to show for it.


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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by al_quaker » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:02 am

Quaker85 wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:58 am
al_quaker wrote:
Quaker85 wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:20 am
onewayup wrote:The vanarama national league have got to make a decision soon for the sake of the games integrity.
Uncertainty cannot carry on .
Common sense has got to prevail.
End uncertainty now plan for next season .
Or end the uncertainty and plan for the resumption of this season at a later date.
How would that end uncertainty with respect to, for example, expiring contracts? Or even paying wages if the games are to be played behind closed doors?
I’m sure South Shields, Stockton, Shildon and Hebburn could live with the uncertainty. All they have now is a load of bills and nothing to show for it.


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I'm sure they could, but that didn't answer my question.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by onewayup » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:23 am

You've got to look a the bigger picture, leaving clubs hanging in the air not knowing if /when they will play again is going against what we are being told by the government's strategists, are they not saying it will be six months before we start to get anything like near normal service resumed,
This season is done , end it. Each club can then decide what they need to do with a clear agenda re their individual circumstances, yes it will be difficult yes also different to how they would normally do things ,but this is where we are with this dreadful situation, we have got to look forward to the future and hopefully the game intact. STAY SAFE PEOPLE.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Quaker85 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:56 am

Tell that to the money grabbing premier league. The FA has backed themselves into a corner over this.


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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by lo36789 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:59 am

Quaker85 wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:58 am
al_quaker wrote:
Quaker85 wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:20 am
onewayup wrote:The vanarama national league have got to make a decision soon for the sake of the games integrity.
Uncertainty cannot carry on .
Common sense has got to prevail.
End uncertainty now plan for next season .
Or end the uncertainty and plan for the resumption of this season at a later date.
How would that end uncertainty with respect to, for example, expiring contracts? Or even paying wages if the games are to be played behind closed doors?
I’m sure South Shields, Stockton, Shildon and Hebburn could live with the uncertainty. All they have now is a load of bills and nothing to show for it.

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If they do it the other way replace South Shields, Shildon and Hebburn with Grantham Town (currently out of relegation but down on PPG) and any other team around relegation spots.

Loads of bills to stave or relegation and "nothing to show for it". Whatever way it is down there are going to be losers.

From an FA standpoint these clubs have not yet achieved promotion so they aren't taking anything away from them. If they relegate on PPG they are demoting a team who hasn't actually failed to retain their spot.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by al_quaker » Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:24 am

There's no easy solutions that's for sure. Anyone who claims its obvious what to do is misguided in my opinion. Whatever happens there will be winners and losers, and huge challenges for some clubs. I'm personally of the opinion that voiding it is the least worst option as it's seemingly going to be many months before large gatherings are OK again, but appreciate that that raises many issues, and that others legitimately think it's best to postpone indefinitely. But it's far from a simple decision either way, as indefinite postponment raises many issues too.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Quaker85 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:28 pm

Good luck Martin!!

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by loan_star » Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:13 pm

Those who say this season should be voided have not come up with a sensible suggestion should this problem last into, or reoccur next season.
To suggest just playing each other once is just plain bonkers.
As has been shown already, large amounts of money have been spent by teams at all levels to get to where they are now, including ground upgrades. There is far too much money riding on things for the FA just to wipe the slate clean.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Quaker85 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:20 pm

loan_star wrote:Those who say this season should be voided have not come up with a sensible suggestion should this problem last into, or reoccur next season.
To suggest just playing each other once is just plain bonkers.
As has been shown already, large amounts of money have been spent by teams at all levels to get to where they are now, including ground upgrades. There is far too much money riding on things for the FA just to wipe the slate clean.
Well said sir!


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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by al_quaker » Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:35 pm

loan_star wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:13 pm
Those who say this season should be voided have not come up with a sensible suggestion should this problem last into, or reoccur next season.
To suggest just playing each other once is just plain bonkers.
As has been shown already, large amounts of money have been spent by teams at all levels to get to where they are now, including ground upgrades. There is far too much money riding on things for the FA just to wipe the slate clean.
That same issue occurs if this season is concluded late.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by loan_star » Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:38 pm

al_quaker wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:35 pm
loan_star wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:13 pm
Those who say this season should be voided have not come up with a sensible suggestion should this problem last into, or reoccur next season.
To suggest just playing each other once is just plain bonkers.
As has been shown already, large amounts of money have been spent by teams at all levels to get to where they are now, including ground upgrades. There is far too much money riding on things for the FA just to wipe the slate clean.
That same issue occurs if this season is concluded late.
How? You start next season late anyway and if it gets delayed it finishes later again. It will take a few years to get back to the routine of an august start but at least the integrity of each of the competitions isn't compromised with a knee jerk reaction.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by al_quaker » Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:45 pm

loan_star wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:38 pm
al_quaker wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:35 pm
loan_star wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:13 pm
Those who say this season should be voided have not come up with a sensible suggestion should this problem last into, or reoccur next season.
To suggest just playing each other once is just plain bonkers.
As has been shown already, large amounts of money have been spent by teams at all levels to get to where they are now, including ground upgrades. There is far too much money riding on things for the FA just to wipe the slate clean.
That same issue occurs if this season is concluded late.
How? You start next season late anyway and if it gets delayed it finishes later again. It will take a few years to get back to the routine of an august start but at least the integrity of each of the competitions isn't compromised with a knee jerk reaction.
If the virus comes back, it affects whatever 'season' we are currently playing.

The integrity of the competition won't be there if we resume after a 4 month break with different squads. The integrity of the competition won't be there if clubs are forced to maintain contracts they may now not be able to afford so that the season can be restarted in a few months with, on paper, the same squads as no doubt some clubs wouldn't be able to afford that.

For what it's worth, I don't really care either way. All I really care about is my friends and family getting out of this pandemic alive. I think voiding is simplest, and if some clubs are a bit upset then so be it - it's unfortunate but there's more important things in life. If clubs who have already been promoted have started ground work then something should be done to help those few. Similary if the FA choose to carry on then fine as long as its workable. I do however think people claiming that it's such a simple decision to indefinitely delay the season are being a bit disingenuous about the difficulty that would cause some clubs.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by loan_star » Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:56 pm

Nobody said anything about different squads. The FA have the power to stop any sort of transfer. Contracts can resume when the season restarts.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by al_quaker » Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:03 pm

The FA may well be able to stop transfers, but can they supercede contract law? And if contracts were suspended and then resumed in, say October, we'd have our current wage bill, yet no guarantee that we'd have the income to cover it. Gate receipts could be dramatically down, boost the budget could be dramatically reduced. I doubt we'll be able to get much in the way of sponsorship. Other clubs may well have lost their backers. It's not simple. It may well be the best outcome if something workable can be found, but I understand why the FA took the decision they did at this time.
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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by super_les_mcjannet » Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:03 pm

Not sure legally you can change the contracts of players, they can maybe sign temp extensions etc. but I guess legally don't have to.

FA and World football associations could hold off on approving signing on forms, so they can't sign for anyone else. Which means it would be better to sign an extension, however this is getting into difficult challenges even more so for our league where a lot of the contracts run out end of April.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Darlogramps » Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:33 pm

loan_star wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:56 pm
Nobody said anything about different squads. The FA have the power to stop any sort of transfer. Contracts can resume when the season restarts.
Not that simple and you know it.

1. See Super_Les' point about rewriting contracts. Can't happen. Plus a lot of players may wish to move elsewhere so won't want to be tied into a suspended contract indefinitely.
2. The players still need paying, or to earn money. 80% of a non-league contract at some clubs won't be very much.
3. Clubs' circumstances change. They won't be able to pay the new deals if sponsorship deals have changed for example. Many sponsorship deals will be up at the end of the season, so your "suspend then resume contracts" suggestion could place a lot of clubs in difficulty.
4. The FA have to have good reason to stop a transfer, otherwise clubs can take legal action against them.

I honestly don't know what the best solution is. There isn't a good way to restart everything. Every solution has a downside - placing clubs indefinitely in a holding pattern like you're suggesting places massive uncertainty on them and players. How do they pay bills such as ground rents, insurance and so on? What do they do about things like early bird season-tickets? The vast majority of clubs had already begun planning for next season.

Interestingly, according to a letter from various Step 3-6 clubs, the National League was going to be included in last week's null and void announcement but was changed at the last minute.
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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by lo36789 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:28 pm

Best example as this would affect us. Simon Ainge. Per your suggestion we would have to extend his contract beyond April...and his loan deal at Boston?

Or would we be allowed to not extend it and whilst he might be registered to Boston they would need to arrange an entirely new contract with him to be allowed to keep playing him?

I'm pretty sure a blanket and unilateral 'extension' of contracts enforced on clubs and players may breach EU law on the freedom of movement.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by loan_star » Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:42 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:28 pm
Best example as this would affect us. Simon Ainge. Per your suggestion we would have to extend his contract beyond April...and his loan deal at Boston?

Or would we be allowed to not extend it and whilst he might be registered to Boston they would need to arrange an entirely new contract with him to be allowed to keep playing him?

I'm pretty sure a blanket and unilateral 'extension' of contracts enforced on clubs and players may breach EU law on the freedom of movement.
Don't you think lockdown is also a breach of a law on freedom of movement?
This is a unique situation. Yes players may well want to move on but life at the moment isn't like that. If the FA can void a full season and sod the consequences then they are also able to block all player movements and extend loans until the season finally ends.

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Season VOIDED

Post by Darlogramps » Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:55 pm

There’s a big difference between the two. Lockdown is a temporary measure to prevent the spread of a lethal and highly contagious virus. It’s also not illegal under law (otherwise it wouldn’t have been enacted).

Forcibly extending players’ contracts without permission doesn’t have any medical justification, and is illegal under contract law anyway.

The justifications for the two don’t equate.
Last edited by Darlogramps on Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Darlo_Pete » Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:57 pm

66 non-league clubs send an open letter to the FA.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52098137

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by lo36789 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:19 pm

Darlo_Pete wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:57 pm
66 non-league clubs send an open letter to the FA.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52098137
From 91 leagues...

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by lo36789 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:21 pm

loan_star wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:42 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:28 pm
Best example as this would affect us. Simon Ainge. Per your suggestion we would have to extend his contract beyond April...and his loan deal at Boston?

Or would we be allowed to not extend it and whilst he might be registered to Boston they would need to arrange an entirely new contract with him to be allowed to keep playing him?

I'm pretty sure a blanket and unilateral 'extension' of contracts enforced on clubs and players may breach EU law on the freedom of movement.
Don't you think lockdown is also a breach of a law on freedom of movement?
This is a unique situation. Yes players may well want to move on but life at the moment isn't like that. If the FA can void a full season and sod the consequences then they are also able to block all player movements and extend loans until the season finally ends.
I'm not sure I can give this a serious answer?

One has been enacted by the government, after pushing appropriate laws through parliament, the other would be enacted by a private company!?

They can void a season because that is in their jurisdiction to do...they provide the permission to play football under their license and insurance is given on basis that clubs are playing "affiliated" football.

The two couldn't be more different.

What would you do if you handed your notice in tomorrow and your employer said you can't leave because it's exceptional circumstances. Would you just say yep ok then that sounds fine?

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Mister e » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:35 pm

Where the fa have slipped up is doing things back to front they should have blocked relegation and promoted the top two clubs where possible throughout the pyramid many leagues would have started with extra teams next season admittedly. But therefore clubs have increased revenue from the two extra home games and you increase the relegation places for a one and only time.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Maurice_Peddelty » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:06 pm

Mister e wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:35 pm
Where the fa have slipped up is doing things back to front they should have blocked relegation and promoted the top two clubs where possible throughout the pyramid many leagues would have started with extra teams next season admittedly. But therefore clubs have increased revenue from the two extra home games and you increase the relegation places for a one and only time.
I think the initial mistake has been made by the executive boards of the Step 3-6 leagues. My take on it (based on reports in the media) is that the executive boards jointly decided a way forward without first properly/formally consulting with their respective member clubs.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by comeondarlo » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:42 pm

Maurice_Peddelty wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:06 pm
Mister e wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:35 pm
Where the fa have slipped up is doing things back to front they should have blocked relegation and promoted the top two clubs where possible throughout the pyramid many leagues would have started with extra teams next season admittedly. But therefore clubs have increased revenue from the two extra home games and you increase the relegation places for a one and only time.
I think the initial mistake has been made by the executive boards of the Step 3-6 leagues. My take on it (based on reports in the media) is that the executive boards jointly decided a way forward without first properly/formally consulting with their respective member clubs.
Now we are getting there! Simply voiding the season should be the last resort (if at all) not the first!

As for going behind clubs backs.......we are back to integrity again.

When this is all over we should be proud of our game not sickened or embarrassed!

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by loan_star » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:53 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:21 pm

I'm not sure I can give this a serious answer?

One has been enacted by the government, after pushing appropriate laws through parliament, the other would be enacted by a private company!?

They can void a season because that is in their jurisdiction to do...they provide the permission to play football under their license and insurance is given on basis that clubs are playing "affiliated" football.

The two couldn't be more different.

What would you do if you handed your notice in tomorrow and your employer said you can't leave because it's exceptional circumstances. Would you just say yep ok then that sounds fine?
My point is that the FA can quite easily ban transfers until a season is officially ended. Its a private competition so they can obviously make it up as they go along.
There is the fair point about players contracts but they either continue playing for the club they are signed for, and more than likely still got paid from under furloughing at least, and pay back that commitment made by the clubs and see the season out. After all they can't play for anyone else so why not still play for the club who didn't sack you off?
All sides in this need to reach a sensible agreement and for me, writing off this season and probably next is total nonsense.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Mister e » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:14 pm

loan_star wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:53 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:21 pm

I'm not sure I can give this a serious answer?

One has been enacted by the government, after pushing appropriate laws through parliament, the other would be enacted by a private company!?

They can void a season because that is in their jurisdiction to do...they provide the permission to play football under their license and insurance is given on basis that clubs are playing "affiliated" football.

The two couldn't be more different.

What would you do if you handed your notice in tomorrow and your employer said you can't leave because it's exceptional circumstances. Would you just say yep ok then that sounds fine?
My point is that the FA can quite easily ban transfers until a season is officially ended. Its a private competition so they can obviously make it up as they go along.
There is the fair point about players contracts but they either continue playing for the club they are signed for, and more than likely still got paid from under furloughing at least, and pay back that commitment made by the clubs and see the season out. After all they can't play for anyone else so why not still play for the club who didn't sack you off?
All sides in this need to reach a sensible agreement and for me, writing off this season and probably next is total nonsense.
When your talking about players contracts though I think it was the boreham wood chairman who said he's only going to be left with around seven contracted players on the 30th April - I just don't think a season extension is going to be feasible for clubs like them who survive on a hand to mouth existence.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by spen666 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:18 pm

Some people seem to want to reintroduce slavery

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by H1987 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:23 pm

loan_star wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:53 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:21 pm

I'm not sure I can give this a serious answer?

One has been enacted by the government, after pushing appropriate laws through parliament, the other would be enacted by a private company!?

They can void a season because that is in their jurisdiction to do...they provide the permission to play football under their license and insurance is given on basis that clubs are playing "affiliated" football.

The two couldn't be more different.

What would you do if you handed your notice in tomorrow and your employer said you can't leave because it's exceptional circumstances. Would you just say yep ok then that sounds fine?
My point is that the FA can quite easily ban transfers until a season is officially ended. Its a private competition so they can obviously make it up as they go along.
There is the fair point about players contracts but they either continue playing for the club they are signed for, and more than likely still got paid from under furloughing at least, and pay back that commitment made by the clubs and see the season out. After all they can't play for anyone else so why not still play for the club who didn't sack you off?
All sides in this need to reach a sensible agreement and for me, writing off this season and probably next is total nonsense.
....being a private competition doesn't allow you to override employment law.

The players, at this level especially, are probably earning around, if often less than some on the terraces. It's a job to them, and for many, a part-time one. The idea you can arbitrarily extend their contracts because you desperately want your football season to be ended is ridiculous. They don't have to pay back a damned penny, or owe it to anyone.

When their fixed-term contracts expire, like anyone else, they are absolutely entitled to go and work wherever or for whoever they like. That isn't going to change. The decision everyone sulking about this needs to make is if they would rather play out a season with entirely changed squads, whenever this thing is over, to finish a season that is over for the vast majority of participants... and potentially produces warped results because of those contract changes... or, we just accept that things have happened beyond our control and that abandoning it is the right thing to do.

There is no situation that makes everyone happy, but to me, and I suspect plenty of others, arbitrarily forcing an end to this season is an absurdity if you end up with a situation where the end of the season is completed with:

- incomplete squads
- unfit players who haven't trained (potentially in months)
- completed behind closed doors

Factoring all of those highly likely scenarios in.... what's the point?

Even putting aside the morality of demanding working people's contracts to be changed for your entertainment, the sporting argument doesn't make sense. I think they may put the decision off for a few weeks, but I cannot see how you complete this season with any sporting or moral integrity at this level. Let it go.

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Season VOIDED

Post by Darlogramps » Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:01 am

Very well put H1987. The idea of forcibly extending players’ contracts to an as yet undetermined date, with clubs having to pay out for that, is beyond ludicrous.

The example of Simon Ainge earlier in the thread is a very good one.

The club have made it clear they don’t want him. He most likely doesn’t want to be here. Yet under the loan_star plan, Ainge wouldn’t be able to move on, even though his loan at Boston and contract here would have expired. It doesn’t make any sense, and in any case it would be illegal under employment law.

On top of that, what about players planning on retiring? Or players with pre-contract agreements elsewhere? Or players who are switching to another profession?

You could ask players if they voluntarily would like to stay on. That of course gives you the issue of funding several extra months for these players. But you cannot legally stop out-of-contract players leaving if they don’t want to stay. And it only takes a few to leave for the whole integrity of a restarted competition to be called into question.

And given clubs will have planned differing wage structures for next season, forcing them to continue paying players and other costs like ground rents etc while at the same time having no income, just isn’t viable in my view.

I think given the contract issue, and the fact social distancing measures are almost certain to still be in place by the end of the month, I cannot see how the National League will restart.

The FA set the precedent last week in null and voiding the rest of non-league, so I’d venture that is most likely to happen. Personally I think PPG should have been used, but that’s another debate.

If it was hard and fast that this outbreak would be sorted in a couple of weeks and we’d be under way again quickly, I could see the argument for wanting to restart. But we could socially distancing for another six months, maybe longer. There’s so much uncertainty that, in my view it’s impossible to restart the season, especially because of the contractual situations and the massive financial implications indefinitely suspending the competitions has for the competing clubs.
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