Season VOIDED

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H1987
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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by H1987 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:28 pm

Well, evidently points per game isn't perfect, because some teams will have played a harder schedule than others.

Honestly, my concerns lie less with the teams set to be promoted, but more with the teams you are condemning to relegation. South Shields will be very upset, but also, they're quite obviously going to waltz the league next season anyway. You can't just condemn clubs to relegation without playing the games out, because they will all (quite rightly) argue they could've gotten out of it, or "X has played easier games than we have".... etc etc... and you can't just play the games out with different squads, as the impact is uneven.

There is no fair way to do this - it perhaps highlights the future need to have, within the rules of football in this country, to have a sort of Duckworth lewis method (for football) and applying it. If the rule is there and established, there is no argument to be had. As it doesn't exist... I don't really see a fair way of concluding this.

I don't think any outcome is satisfactory, but the *most* unsatisfactory to me is relegating teams and the financial consequences that can have to the respective clubs involved.

Abandonment and using PPG for prize money, European spaces at the top et al could work and reach a reasonable consensus, but to me, you can't relegate teams fairly on that basis. If you can't relegate teams fairly, you can't really promote teams either. The possible exception being that you could maybe elect a team to the football league because it's currently a team down. Alternatively, maybe Bury could be back, but I'm not sure the club exists anymore as an entity (I'll admit I've not been following it terribly closely).

Old Git
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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Old Git » Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:59 pm

H1987 wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:28 pm
Well, evidently points per game isn't perfect, because some teams will have played a harder schedule than others.

Honestly, my concerns lie less with the teams set to be promoted, but more with the teams you are condemning to relegation. South Shields will be very upset, but also, they're quite obviously going to waltz the league next season anyway. You can't just condemn clubs to relegation without playing the games out, because they will all (quite rightly) argue they could've gotten out of it, or "X has played easier games than we have".... etc etc... and you can't just play the games out with different squads, as the impact is uneven.

There is no fair way to do this - it perhaps highlights the future need to have, within the rules of football in this country, to have a sort of Duckworth lewis method (for football) and applying it. If the rule is there and established, there is no argument to be had. As it doesn't exist... I don't really see a fair way of concluding this.

I don't think any outcome is satisfactory, but the *most* unsatisfactory to me is relegating teams and the financial consequences that can have to the respective clubs involved.

Abandonment and using PPG for prize money, European spaces at the top et al could work and reach a reasonable consensus, but to me, you can't relegate teams fairly on that basis. If you can't relegate teams fairly, you can't really promote teams either. The possible exception being that you could maybe elect a team to the football league because it's currently a team down. Alternatively, maybe Bury could be back, but I'm not sure the club exists anymore as an entity (I'll admit I've not been following it terribly closely).
Disagree strongly with you.
3/4 of the season played so quite ridiculous to say some teams have had a tougher schedule than others. Any team in a relegation/ promotion position is there for a good reason. A few positions could change if the season was concluded but not many. It does not look good in a serious situation like this teams whinging about being hard done by when hundreds of people are dying daily in UK alone.

Beano
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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Beano » Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:13 pm

Whilst in a perfect world the season would be picked up from where it has been paused, the contractual situation of players, staff, insurance and sponsors, etc, make it impossible to continue beyond the regular end of the season.

With so much of the season played, I would have preferred to see a PPG applied, and complete all promotions and relegations accordingly. As Gramps has already said, we can't have one rule for Barrow in the National League and another for South Shields, etc, in other divisions.

What would have been interesting to see would be a vote from each club (within their respective leagues) to see the overall preference.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by comeondarlo » Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:24 pm

Beano wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:13 pm
Whilst in a perfect world the season would be picked up from where it has been paused, the contractual situation of players, staff, insurance and sponsors, etc, make it impossible to continue beyond the regular end of the season.

With so much of the season played, I would have preferred to see a PPG applied, and complete all promotions and relegations accordingly. As Gramps has already said, we can't have one rule for Barrow in the National League and another for South Shields, etc, in other divisions.

What would have been interesting to see would be a vote from each club (within their respective leagues) to see the overall preference.
I said that but no matter.

It’s also why I said 12 clubs have integrity.
I also think the higher up the pyramid the more difficult it becomes because of money and the more likely the season will be finished. Therefore the integrity of football is in question again.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Beano » Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:26 pm

comeondarlo wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:24 pm
Beano wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:13 pm
Whilst in a perfect world the season would be picked up from where it has been paused, the contractual situation of players, staff, insurance and sponsors, etc, make it impossible to continue beyond the regular end of the season.

With so much of the season played, I would have preferred to see a PPG applied, and complete all promotions and relegations accordingly. As Gramps has already said, we can't have one rule for Barrow in the National League and another for South Shields, etc, in other divisions.

What would have been interesting to see would be a vote from each club (within their respective leagues) to see the overall preference.
I said that but no matter.

It’s also why I said 12 clubs have integrity.
I also think the higher up the pyramid the more difficult it becomes because of money and the more likely the season will be finished. Therefore the integrity of football is in question again.
It very much is. It seems a very knee jerk response also when time is on the FA's side as we clearly will not be resuming any time soon.

From an administrative perspective, a void season is much simpler to deal with than PPG or any other alternative.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by lo36789 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:35 pm

comeondarlo wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:24 pm
It’s also why I said 12 clubs have integrity.
Based on his comment on social media I don't think FC United have challenged it.

Neil Reynolds perspective, and they were second on PPG, was that there are more important things and they will reorganise for the new season.

To say clubs who haven't challenged it lack integrity is immensely unfair. I would be surprised if we challenged it if the same thing happened in our division.

Priorities.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by comeondarlo » Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:39 pm

Beano wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:26 pm
comeondarlo wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:24 pm
Beano wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:13 pm
Whilst in a perfect world the season would be picked up from where it has been paused, the contractual situation of players, staff, insurance and sponsors, etc, make it impossible to continue beyond the regular end of the season.

With so much of the season played, I would have preferred to see a PPG applied, and complete all promotions and relegations accordingly. As Gramps has already said, we can't have one rule for Barrow in the National League and another for South Shields, etc, in other divisions.

What would have been interesting to see would be a vote from each club (within their respective leagues) to see the overall preference.
I said that but no matter.

It’s also why I said 12 clubs have integrity.
I also think the higher up the pyramid the more difficult it becomes because of money and the more likely the season will be finished. Therefore the integrity of football is in question again.
It very much is. It seems a very knee jerk response also when time is on the FA's side as we clearly will not be resuming any time soon.

From an administrative perspective, a void season is much simpler to deal with than PPG or any other alternative.
Nail on the head, you’ve summed it up nicely.
The FA have jumped the gun, they have taken the easy option and their integrity is shot!

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by comeondarlo » Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:42 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:35 pm
comeondarlo wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:24 pm
It’s also why I said 12 clubs have integrity.
Based on his comment on social media I don't think FC United have challenged it.

Neil Reynolds perspective, and they were second on PPG, was that there are more important things and they will reorganise for the new season.

To say clubs who haven't challenged it lack integrity is immensely unfair. I would be surprised if we challenged it if the same thing happened in our division.

Priorities.
I agree, no integrity.

Priorities?

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by lo36789 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:30 pm

Yes priorities. Perhaps clubs think there are more important things going on right now than challenging this.

Maybe they recognise that the FA had a difficult choice and that they made one of many choices.

Not a question of integrity

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QuakerPete
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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by QuakerPete » Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:21 pm

Beano wrote:Whilst in a perfect world the season would be picked up from where it has been paused, the contractual situation of players, staff, insurance and sponsors, etc, make it impossible to continue beyond the regular end of the season.

With so much of the season played, I would have preferred to see a PPG applied, and complete all promotions and relegations accordingly. As Gramps has already said, we can't have one rule for Barrow in the National League and another for South Shields, etc, in other divisions.

What would have been interesting to see would be a vote from each club (within their respective leagues) to see the overall preference.
The votes of the clubs might well be at odds with the players of those clubs


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H1987
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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by H1987 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:57 am

Old Git wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:59 pm
H1987 wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:28 pm
Well, evidently points per game isn't perfect, because some teams will have played a harder schedule than others.

Honestly, my concerns lie less with the teams set to be promoted, but more with the teams you are condemning to relegation. South Shields will be very upset, but also, they're quite obviously going to waltz the league next season anyway. You can't just condemn clubs to relegation without playing the games out, because they will all (quite rightly) argue they could've gotten out of it, or "X has played easier games than we have".... etc etc... and you can't just play the games out with different squads, as the impact is uneven.

There is no fair way to do this - it perhaps highlights the future need to have, within the rules of football in this country, to have a sort of Duckworth lewis method (for football) and applying it. If the rule is there and established, there is no argument to be had. As it doesn't exist... I don't really see a fair way of concluding this.

I don't think any outcome is satisfactory, but the *most* unsatisfactory to me is relegating teams and the financial consequences that can have to the respective clubs involved.

Abandonment and using PPG for prize money, European spaces at the top et al could work and reach a reasonable consensus, but to me, you can't relegate teams fairly on that basis. If you can't relegate teams fairly, you can't really promote teams either. The possible exception being that you could maybe elect a team to the football league because it's currently a team down. Alternatively, maybe Bury could be back, but I'm not sure the club exists anymore as an entity (I'll admit I've not been following it terribly closely).
Disagree strongly with you.
3/4 of the season played so quite ridiculous to say some teams have had a tougher schedule than others. Any team in a relegation/ promotion position is there for a good reason. A few positions could change if the season was concluded but not many. It does not look good in a serious situation like this teams whinging about being hard done by when hundreds of people are dying daily in UK alone.
Eh? In a relegation fight, one game changes everything.

Fictional scenario using teams from our league:

Team A is 3 points behind Team B in the relegation fight, but have played the same number of games (33)

Team A has 5 home games (4 away) remaining including Bradford and Kettering

Team B has 4 home games (5 away) including York and Kings Lynn

This is a fictional scenario, but quite obviously, ending the season arbitrarily has different impacts on teams. In that scenario (which I am damned sure will be representative of a case in some divisions) the current table will not be a fair reflection, if one team has played the top sides more often.

Honestly, I’m having a very difficult time with not thinking negative thoughts about every single football fan demanding the season be ended at any cost, and refusing to think of the multiple factors at play (particularly at this level).

Let’s be clear - there is absolutely no fair way this season ends now. None at all. It is now just about the best way to protect clubs and the integrity of the game going forward, on which opinions are going to differ, but the perfect solution simply doesn’t exist. The only perfect one was getting the season going again within a month, but that’s not going to happen and we need to accept that.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by spen666 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:14 am

H1987 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:57 am
Old Git wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:59 pm
H1987 wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:28 pm
Well, evidently points per game isn't perfect, because some teams will have played a harder schedule than others.

Honestly, my concerns lie less with the teams set to be promoted, but more with the teams you are condemning to relegation. South Shields will be very upset, but also, they're quite obviously going to waltz the league next season anyway. You can't just condemn clubs to relegation without playing the games out, because they will all (quite rightly) argue they could've gotten out of it, or "X has played easier games than we have".... etc etc... and you can't just play the games out with different squads, as the impact is uneven.

There is no fair way to do this - it perhaps highlights the future need to have, within the rules of football in this country, to have a sort of Duckworth lewis method (for football) and applying it. If the rule is there and established, there is no argument to be had. As it doesn't exist... I don't really see a fair way of concluding this.

I don't think any outcome is satisfactory, but the *most* unsatisfactory to me is relegating teams and the financial consequences that can have to the respective clubs involved.

Abandonment and using PPG for prize money, European spaces at the top et al could work and reach a reasonable consensus, but to me, you can't relegate teams fairly on that basis. If you can't relegate teams fairly, you can't really promote teams either. The possible exception being that you could maybe elect a team to the football league because it's currently a team down. Alternatively, maybe Bury could be back, but I'm not sure the club exists anymore as an entity (I'll admit I've not been following it terribly closely).
Disagree strongly with you.
3/4 of the season played so quite ridiculous to say some teams have had a tougher schedule than others. Any team in a relegation/ promotion position is there for a good reason. A few positions could change if the season was concluded but not many. It does not look good in a serious situation like this teams whinging about being hard done by when hundreds of people are dying daily in UK alone.
Eh? In a relegation fight, one game changes everything.

Fictional scenario using teams from our league:

Team A is 3 points behind Team B in the relegation fight, but have played the same number of games (33)

Team A has 5 home games (4 away) remaining including Bradford and Kettering

Team B has 4 home games (5 away) including York and Kings Lynn

This is a fictional scenario, but quite obviously, ending the season arbitrarily has different impacts on teams. In that scenario (which I am damned sure will be representative of a case in some divisions) the current table will not be a fair reflection, if one team has played the top sides more often.

Honestly, I’m having a very difficult time with not thinking negative thoughts about every single football fan demanding the season be ended at any cost, and refusing to think of the multiple factors at play (particularly at this level).

Let’s be clear - there is absolutely no fair way this season ends now. None at all. It is now just about the best way to protect clubs and the integrity of the game going forward, on which opinions are going to differ, but the perfect solution simply doesn’t exist. The only perfect one was getting the season going again within a month, but that’s not going to happen and we need to accept that.


Honestly, I’m having a very difficult time with not thinking negative thoughts about every single football fan demanding the season be continued to a conclusion at some undetermined time in the future at any cost, and refusing to think of the multiple factors at play (particularly at this level)



Changing the words end to continue and you get an equally silly position.
Last edited by spen666 on Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

Old Git
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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Old Git » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:15 am

After 30+ games the league table does not lie and is as good an indication of teams ability as you could hope to have in these circumstances. If only a small number of games had been played it would be much less so. PPG would be the fairest way to decide things rather than voiding the season I believe.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Quaker85 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:21 am

Old Git wrote:After 30+ games the league table does not lie and is as good an indication of teams ability as you could hope to have in these circumstances. If only a small number of games had been played it would be much less so. PPG would be the fairest way to decide things rather than voiding the season I believe.
There are so many flaws with this argument. They’ve all been discussed at length already on this forum.


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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:47 am

Old Git wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:15 am
After 30+ games the league table does not lie and is as good an indication of teams ability as you could hope to have in these circumstances. If only a small number of games had been played it would be much less so. PPG would be the fairest way to decide things rather than voiding the season I believe.
I disagree with the above too.

If the season ends now, goals, results and bookings etc remain but no one goes up or down.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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comeondarlo
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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by comeondarlo » Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:04 am

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:47 am
Old Git wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:15 am
After 30+ games the league table does not lie and is as good an indication of teams ability as you could hope to have in these circumstances. If only a small number of games had been played it would be much less so. PPG would be the fairest way to decide things rather than voiding the season I believe.
I disagree with the above too.

If the season ends now, goals, results and bookings etc remain but no one goes up or down.
Probably the worst solution yet......
Wanting your cake and eating it!

Oh and Thommo would have 100 goals, forget self interest!

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:20 am

What cake would that be?

A final league table represents who goes up or down from that particular league. That's by far the most important thing, that's what every team in every league are playing for.

Stephen Thompson never entered into my mind, however seeing as you mentioned goals - all goals in the league happened, you can't deny that, so let them stand, even if they don't mean anything.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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H1987
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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by H1987 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:32 am

I’m with you on this one theoriginalfatcat

The current table is a fair reflection of the season up until this point. It is not however, a reflection of a season, which contains multiple variables. Particularly in regard to relegation.

It is not fair if one team in the relegation zone has played the top team twice and has winnable games remaining, and the other team they are just behind hasn’t.

There is *no* fair solution. I can see a merit to handing out things like financial awards, European places etc on this basis, but not relegating teams. This doesn’t affect us, but that isn’t fair.

By the way - I do think that voiding is an absurdity as well - at the very least you abandon it so what has happened has... you know. Officially happened. There’s no real good reason, that I can see, to void it.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by lo36789 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:02 pm

H1987 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:32 am
I’m with you on this one theoriginalfatcat

The current table is a fair reflection of the season up until this point. It is not however, a reflection of a season, which contains multiple variables. Particularly in regard to relegation.

It is not fair if one team in the relegation zone has played the top team twice and has winnable games remaining, and the other team they are just behind hasn’t.

There is *no* fair solution. I can see a merit to handing out things like financial awards, European places etc on this basis, but not relegating teams. This doesn’t affect us, but that isn’t fair.

By the way - I do think that voiding is an absurdity as well - at the very least you abandon it so what has happened has... you know. Officially happened. There’s no real good reason, that I can see, to void it.
I think I agree with this.

No solution is more fair than any other really - teams who are impacted will feel different.

Voiding is bizarre though. Surely the results stand they just don't less to relegation / promotion.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Shed7 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:44 pm

So if PPG is used how do they determine who goes up with kings Lynn? There won’t be any play offs so 2nd on PPG is york. Can you promote york based on this? Altrincham Chester brackley will have other ideas.
Same in the league above, can you relegate fylde on PPG who believe they would have survived had the season not stopped. There’s no right or wrong way but something needs deciding ASAP. As the leagues below have being null and voided it would be so much easier and make it across the non league platform everything is null and void.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Mister e » Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:50 pm

Everything else apart we must be one of the unluckiest clubs in the world for the first time in a generation we have cup runs which look like they've sorted our finances out and then this tragedy develops. I also wonder how many of our fans were looking forward to a last away day of the season weekend ln Southport now I really worry many of our loyal supporters might not even have livelihoods when this lockdown comes to an end. I also wonder whtever the outcome of the government or league put some kind of curfew on supporters traveling to away games.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by spen666 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:28 pm

Mister e wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:50 pm
Everything else apart we must be one of the unluckiest clubs in the world for the first time in a generation we have cup runs which look like they've sorted our finances out and then this tragedy develops.




Darlington had a great cup run, got the money and they keep it ( rightly so). Darlington are mid table and lose nothing compared to clubs missing out on promotion or possibly facing relegation as a result are the unlucky clubs.

Darlington have got off lightly compared to clubs like Barrow, South Shields Vauxhall Motors, Jersey Bulls who had all but won promotion by time of close down ?

Not sure how you can claim Darlington have been unlucky compared to other clubs
I also wonder how many of our fans were looking forward to a last away day of the season weekend ln Southport now I really worry many of our loyal supporters might not even have livelihoods when this lockdown comes to an end. I also wonder whtever the outcome of the government or league put some kind of curfew on supporters traveling to away games.
Last edited by spen666 on Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Emdubya » Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:35 pm

Mister e wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:50 pm
Everything else apart we must be one of the unluckiest clubs in the world for the first time in a generation we have cup runs which look like they've sorted our finances out and then this tragedy develops. I also wonder how many of our fans were looking forward to a last away day of the season weekend ln Southport now I really worry many of our loyal supporters might not even have livelihoods when this lockdown comes to an end. I also wonder whtever the outcome of the government or league put some kind of curfew on supporters traveling to away games.
Why would there be a curfew on travel?.No one is going anywhere until this virus is well and truly behind us and then we will be back to business as usual and able to go where we want.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Mister e » Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:41 pm

I am not so sure on that I'm sure the government said social distancing could be in place for up to a year.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by spen666 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:42 pm

Mister e wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:41 pm
I am not so sure on that I'm sure the government said social distancing could be in place for up to a year.
If social distancing is in place, then how can you play football?

Not get within 6 feet of an opponent is not going to make for a decent game


Without gate income, most ( if not all) NLN sides could not afford to play games

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Mister e » Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:00 pm

Fair point spen also hope when all this is over clubs are going to improve hygiene the bucks head at Telford is a disgrace the terraces absolutely littered with pigeon droppings I can't believe they haven't been roped in by health and safety officers.

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by Old Git » Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:06 pm

spen666 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:42 pm
Mister e wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:41 pm
I am not so sure on that I'm sure the government said social distancing could be in place for up to a year.
If social distancing is in place, then how can you play football?

Not get within 6 feet of an opponent is not going to make for a decent game


Without gate income, most ( if not all) NLN sides could not afford to play games
If you had seen me play I was following social distancing before it became a recommendation. Never could catch those speedy opponents!

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by comeondarlo » Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:08 pm

Sorry, I’ve never encountered Mister e before; is he having a laugh?

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Re: Season VOIDED

Post by jjljks » Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:16 pm

There were a couple of games when I suspected our defence were already doing social distancing as they were at least 2m from the opposition😉😷

banktopp
Posts: 686
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:59 pm
Team Supported: Darlington
Location: Hereford

Re: Season VOIDED

Post by banktopp » Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:10 am

Mister e wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:00 pm
Fair point spen also hope when all this is over clubs are going to improve hygiene the bucks head at Telford is a disgrace the terraces absolutely littered with pigeon droppings I can't believe they haven't been roped in by health and safety officers.
To be honest I was more interested in the superb display by our team, rather than looking down at pigeon s***.
It is a new ground with good facilities and acceptably clean toilets. The fact there are some pigeon droppings is neither here nor there, unless you drop your chips.

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