Big decision for Chester fans to make.

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Vodka_Vic
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Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by Vodka_Vic » Fri May 08, 2020 12:15 pm

http://www.chesterfc.com/2020/05/07/cfu ... d-members/

Interesting developments at Chester who, like ourselves, are fan owned. Their 'benefactor' who has put in 1 million pounds over 3 years now wants control which the Supporters Trust now have to vote on. Quite rightly they want a lot of written guarantees. This is a position we may find ourselves in one day.

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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by Darlofan97 » Fri May 08, 2020 12:38 pm

Chester fans should err on the side of caution.

By the sounds of it he wants to use the football club as part of a Sporting Village development for Hotels, Spas etc.

Where have been heard that one before?

It is also convenient that he has submitted his proposal now, when the club is facing losses due to the Coronavirus. Essentially, the club is now at its most vulnerable and requires some kind of financial support. It’s very strategic.

A little bit like what Singh did in May 2017 when we required funding for the playing surface, seated stand & playing budget. Strike when the club is at its most vulnerable - not when it is doing well for itself.

For us, we may come across this type of decision in the future, but I don’t believe we have hit our ceiling under the fan ownership model just yet.

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Fri May 08, 2020 12:56 pm

I can’t see D.J. putting us into this position.

If he leaves however......
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by Darlofan97 » Fri May 08, 2020 1:07 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 12:56 pm
I can’t see D.J. putting us into this position.

If he leaves however......
DJ wouldn’t have the final say.

Any proposal would have to be voted for by the DFCSG members. Requiring a 75% majority vote to pass I believe.

That’s as far as I understand it anyway.

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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by GrassrootsMatt » Fri May 08, 2020 1:08 pm

Darlofan97 wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 12:38 pm
Chester fans should err on the side of caution.

By the sounds of it he wants to use the football club as part of a Sporting Village development for Hotels, Spas etc.

Where have been heard that one before?

It is also convenient that he has submitted his proposal now, when the club is facing losses due to the Coronavirus. Essentially, the club is now at its most vulnerable and requires some kind of financial support. It’s very strategic.

A little bit like what Singh did in May 2017 when we required funding for the playing surface, seated stand & playing budget. Strike when the club is at its most vulnerable - not when it is doing well for itself.

For us, we may come across this type of decision in the future, but I don’t believe we have hit our ceiling under the fan ownership model just yet.
Whilst I don't disagree fully, surely if you're a businessman then these are the best times to buy into something?

I'm not business savvy, so I don't fully understand the ins and outs of the story so I may be way off here.

Whilst on the subject of Chester, wasn't their former owner Stephen Vaughan linked with us about fifteen years ago?
Come on Darlo!

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Fri May 08, 2020 1:16 pm

Darlofan97 wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 1:07 pm
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 12:56 pm
I can’t see D.J. putting us into this position.

If he leaves however......
DJ wouldn’t have the final say.

Any proposal would have to be voted for by the DFCSG members. Requiring a 75% majority vote to pass I believe.

That’s as far as I understand it anyway.
The story here seems to be the present chairman trying to take control. Something that I think wouldn’t happen with us with D.J.

If someone else turned up out of the woodwork to try to take a controlling interest then personally I would be suspicious. For instance Singh wanted to buy in and get a controlling percentage, whilst at the same time enjoying the benefits of our fan owned model, as in fundraising and volunteers etc.

Alarm bells!
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

Darlofan97
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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by Darlofan97 » Fri May 08, 2020 1:24 pm

GrassrootsMatt wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 1:08 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 12:38 pm
Chester fans should err on the side of caution.

By the sounds of it he wants to use the football club as part of a Sporting Village development for Hotels, Spas etc.

Where have been heard that one before?

It is also convenient that he has submitted his proposal now, when the club is facing losses due to the Coronavirus. Essentially, the club is now at its most vulnerable and requires some kind of financial support. It’s very strategic.

A little bit like what Singh did in May 2017 when we required funding for the playing surface, seated stand & playing budget. Strike when the club is at its most vulnerable - not when it is doing well for itself.

For us, we may come across this type of decision in the future, but I don’t believe we have hit our ceiling under the fan ownership model just yet.
Whilst I don't disagree fully, surely if you're a businessman then these are the best times to buy into something?

I'm not business savvy, so I don't fully understand the ins and outs of the story so I may be way off here.

Whilst on the subject of Chester, wasn't their former owner Stephen Vaughan linked with us about fifteen years ago?
The impending recession and high levels of uncertainty suggests that any investment would be high risk.

However, it's clear that he's seen an opportunity to strike when the club is desperate for the help, subsequently increasing the chances of the proposal passing.

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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by Darlofan97 » Fri May 08, 2020 1:43 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 1:16 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 1:07 pm
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 12:56 pm
I can’t see D.J. putting us into this position.

If he leaves however......
DJ wouldn’t have the final say.

Any proposal would have to be voted for by the DFCSG members. Requiring a 75% majority vote to pass I believe.

That’s as far as I understand it anyway.
The story here seems to be the present chairman trying to take control. Something that I think wouldn’t happen with us with D.J.

If someone else turned up out of the woodwork to try to take a controlling interest then personally I would be suspicious. For instance Singh wanted to buy in and get a controlling percentage, whilst at the same time enjoying the benefits of our fan owned model, as in fundraising and volunteers etc.

Alarm bells!
He isn't the present chairman.

He is a benefactor that has provided significant amounts of money over the recent 2 years to support the football club, however even the own football club described the new investment approach as a "sudden and radical change to the previously negotiated relationship between the investor and the club". That would set off alarm bells first & foremost.

If you remember, Raj initially approached us with a £40k investment for a percentage of ownership of the football club. This wouldn't have got a "controlling percentage" as you put it, but more around 10%/11%. DFCSG would have retained the controlling ownership, for that present moment anyway.

I think the general consensus was that, once Raj got his foot through the door, he would have put forward a further investment proposal for a controlling share of 51% or more. Martin Gray went on record at the Fans Forum and said that the 'mystery investor' wanted a 51% share.

The initial £40k investment was a way of Singh testing the water, seeing what the appetite was. The timing of the announcement was very strategic considering the fundraising pressures on the fans at the time. I think it was over £100k+ for the new seated stand, pitch drainage and Boost the Budget.

Of course Singh then saw the resistance and withdrew his proposal within 48 hours of it being made public. We raised the money for the seated stand & pitch drainage ourselves and then put £40k+ in to the playing budget.

We can now say we are in a much better position for it. If we had accepted the proposal then I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest we would be in a similar position - financially - to Hartlepool right now. A lot of debt racked up via loans and worrying if we would have a club.

It's a testament to the football club Board, DFCSG (particularly Chris & Wayne - although all do a great job), the fans etc (look at one of our fans running a virtual 50:50 to provide revenue), that we in a position now to navigate through these difficult times. There is still an awful lot of hard work to go in, but I am confident that us fans can pull together to support our football club and come out of the other side.

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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by onewayup » Fri May 08, 2020 1:49 pm

I really hope that the Chester supporters group get the proper advice and leadership that they are going to need to come to a sensible decision as it's their football club .if the wrong decision is made they could end up with nothing and no way back.

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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by Beano » Fri May 08, 2020 3:01 pm

Even if the benefactor pumps in serious cash, it is by no means a guarantee of success.

It'll be very interesting to watch this unfold from afar.

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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by Vodka_Vic » Fri May 08, 2020 3:13 pm

As Divas has said before, once you lose control, it's out of your hands. The guy taking over might be wonderful. However, it's when he comes to sell it. Your 3rd owner down the line might be an absolute asset stripper and it's game over.

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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by JE93 » Sat May 09, 2020 8:51 am

Open letter from Stuart Murphy to Chester fans makes for pretty grim reading. 2 years ago he earmarked £1m for infrastructure projects to provide additional revenue for the club. To date £625k has gone in to suring up the playing side over the last 2 seasons. The remaining £375k was to be spent on infrastructure improvements but he states Corona virus has changed that and the majority of money will now just be seeing the club alright through these times.

https://twitter.com/ShanePinnington/sta ... 40385?s=19

Truth is if they are spending £300k a season over and above what they can generate they are already living outside of the fan funded model, just for this period they've been able to achieve that through donations from a third party. It's been pretty well publicised that Murphy is funding the wages of players like Asante. Now Murphy sees just how much will have to be spent to achieve his goals and he quite rightly wants control of the club to secure his investment.

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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by eddie-rowles » Sat May 09, 2020 8:58 am

AS DJ mentioned in his recent interview there needs to be a cap or budget limit at our level, buying your way out of the league is short term and not what the NL & FA should be promoting. They need to grip the bull by the horns and take positive action. Unfortunately we know it is not going to happen without ALL fans demanding change.

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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by spen666 » Sat May 09, 2020 1:17 pm

eddie-rowles wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 8:58 am
AS DJ mentioned in his recent interview there needs to be a cap or budget limit at our level, buying your way out of the league is short term and not what the NL & FA should be promoting. They need to grip the bull by the horns and take positive action. Unfortunately we know it is not going to happen without ALL fans demanding change.
I am not sure a budget limit or salary cap would be easy to do without breaching laws on restraint of trade either of players or of clubs.

It would be great if there was something, but it's not easy. That is why the Financial Fair Play rules are like they are. ( And pretty ineffective)

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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by onewayup » Sat May 09, 2020 1:56 pm

Financial fair play rules where is the fair play never ever were good enough to act as a fair play rule it has never been used properly it always was open to misuse by whichever club had more MONIES.

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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by Quaker85 » Sat May 09, 2020 2:41 pm

spen666 wrote:
eddie-rowles wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 8:58 am
AS DJ mentioned in his recent interview there needs to be a cap or budget limit at our level, buying your way out of the league is short term and not what the NL & FA should be promoting. They need to grip the bull by the horns and take positive action. Unfortunately we know it is not going to happen without ALL fans demanding change.
I am not sure a budget limit or salary cap would be easy to do without breaching laws on restraint of trade either of players or of clubs.

It would be great if there was something, but it's not easy. That is why the Financial Fair Play rules are like they are. ( And pretty ineffective)
Super League has a salary cap doesn’t it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

EDJOHNS
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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by EDJOHNS » Sat May 09, 2020 4:07 pm

Quaker85 wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 2:41 pm
spen666 wrote:
eddie-rowles wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 8:58 am
AS DJ mentioned in his recent interview there needs to be a cap or budget limit at our level, buying your way out of the league is short term and not what the NL & FA should be promoting. They need to grip the bull by the horns and take positive action. Unfortunately we know it is not going to happen without ALL fans demanding change.
I am not sure a budget limit or salary cap would be easy to do without breaching laws on restraint of trade either of players or of clubs.

It would be great if there was something, but it's not easy. That is why the Financial Fair Play rules are like they are. ( And pretty ineffective)
Super League has a salary cap doesn’t it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes, but it is across the club, ie 1.8mil.(Theoretically increasing to 2.2 next season), in SL, with a minimum player wage of 100000 per season.
Different from a "wage cap" as clubs can pay players what they like within that figure, and may also have 2 "marquee" players on any figure that only 333,000 counts on the cap.

So simple to work out :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by spen666 » Sat May 09, 2020 6:32 pm

Quaker85 wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 2:41 pm
spen666 wrote:
eddie-rowles wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 8:58 am
AS DJ mentioned in his recent interview there needs to be a cap or budget limit at our level, buying your way out of the league is short term and not what the NL & FA should be promoting. They need to grip the bull by the horns and take positive action. Unfortunately we know it is not going to happen without ALL fans demanding change.
I am not sure a budget limit or salary cap would be easy to do without breaching laws on restraint of trade either of players or of clubs.

It would be great if there was something, but it's not easy. That is why the Financial Fair Play rules are like they are. ( And pretty ineffective)
Super League has a salary cap doesn’t it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
They do, but it has a number of limitations and was by no means easy to introduce and comply with existing law.

It can be done, but it's not easy & it will potentially have unexpected consequences

The PFA have the financial muscle to be able to mount strong legal challenges to any attempts to introduce a salary cap or wage limits.. I am not sure there is the stomach at the FA for such a fight.

I personally would love there to be some way of limiting the wages of a football club, but I struggle to see a satisfactory way of doing this and complying with the law.

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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by Darlo Dodger » Sun May 10, 2020 6:44 am


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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by EDJOHNS » Sun May 10, 2020 7:52 am

spen666 wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 6:32 pm
Quaker85 wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 2:41 pm
spen666 wrote:
eddie-rowles wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 8:58 am
AS DJ mentioned in his recent interview there needs to be a cap or budget limit at our level, buying your way out of the league is short term and not what the NL & FA should be promoting. They need to grip the bull by the horns and take positive action. Unfortunately we know it is not going to happen without ALL fans demanding change.
I am not sure a budget limit or salary cap would be easy to do without breaching laws on restraint of trade either of players or of clubs.

It would be great if there was something, but it's not easy. That is why the Financial Fair Play rules are like they are. ( And pretty ineffective)
Super League has a salary cap doesn’t it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
They do, but it has a number of limitations and was by no means easy to introduce and comply with existing law.

It can be done, but it's not easy & it will potentially have unexpected consequences

The PFA have the financial muscle to be able to mount strong legal challenges to any attempts to introduce a salary cap or wage limits.. I am not sure there is the stomach at the FA for such a fight.

I personally would love there to be some way of limiting the wages of a football club, but I struggle to see a satisfactory way of doing this and complying with the law.
Again proving you know sweet FA about law. The way RL does it works fine and in no way can be said to breach any employment laws.
Some clubs choose to pay higher wages and have a smaller squad. Others pay less and have a bigger squad. The only boundaries are those I stated. The only SET rule on wages is a MINIMUM of £100,000 per year to any player on a SL contract.
What we did see last winter with the setting up of the new compulsory reserve league was a number of players at the higher end of the wage table not offered the same when offered new contracts. Both Toronto and Catalan picked up a couple of surprise signings because of this as they are not covered by the salary cap.

The way SL do it could be adopted for next season and no-one could take it to law and win because NO players wage is limited.

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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by spen666 » Sun May 10, 2020 9:29 am

EDJOHNS wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 7:52 am
spen666 wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 6:32 pm
Quaker85 wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 2:41 pm
spen666 wrote:
eddie-rowles wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 8:58 am
AS DJ mentioned in his recent interview there needs to be a cap or budget limit at our level, buying your way out of the league is short term and not what the NL & FA should be promoting. They need to grip the bull by the horns and take positive action. Unfortunately we know it is not going to happen without ALL fans demanding change.
I am not sure a budget limit or salary cap would be easy to do without breaching laws on restraint of trade either of players or of clubs.

It would be great if there was something, but it's not easy. That is why the Financial Fair Play rules are like they are. ( And pretty ineffective)
Super League has a salary cap doesn’t it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
They do, but it has a number of limitations and was by no means easy to introduce and comply with existing law.

It can be done, but it's not easy & it will potentially have unexpected consequences

The PFA have the financial muscle to be able to mount strong legal challenges to any attempts to introduce a salary cap or wage limits.. I am not sure there is the stomach at the FA for such a fight.

I personally would love there to be some way of limiting the wages of a football club, but I struggle to see a satisfactory way of doing this and complying with the law.
Again proving you know sweet FA about law. The way RL does it works fine and in no way can be said to breach any employment laws.
Some clubs choose to pay higher wages and have a smaller squad. Others pay less and have a bigger squad. The only boundaries are those I stated. The only SET rule on wages is a MINIMUM of £100,000 per year to any player on a SL contract.
What we did see last winter with the setting up of the new compulsory reserve league was a number of players at the higher end of the wage table not offered the same when offered new contracts. Both Toronto and Catalan picked up a couple of surprise signings because of this as they are not covered by the salary cap.

The way SL do it could be adopted for next season and no-one could take it to law and win because NO players wage is limited.

Proving you can't read it understand English Language.

I started by saying Employment Law was not my speciality.

Don't let that truth step in the way



Not have I suggested that the RL scheme breaches any law

Again, dont let that truth step in your way


As for your claim that no player in RL had his salary limited. That has to be untrue. If there is no limit, then there is no salary cap. The whole point of a salary cap is that it is a cap on .....salary.


Dont let the facts get in the way of your rants against me.

Also, don't let the fact that I support the idea of financial controls and have repeatedly stated this get in the way of your rants.

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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by EDJOHNS » Sun May 10, 2020 3:39 pm

Did you not post this?
"They do, but it has a number of limitations and was by no means easy to introduce and comply with existing law".

As for, "I started by saying Employment Law was not my speciality. Don't let that truth step in the way"
why say later that
"It can be done, BUT IT'S NOT EASY & IT WILL POTENTIALLY HAVE UNEXPECTED CONSEQUENCES. Saying it will not be easy suggests some form of knowledge on the subject.

NO single player has any salary cap imposed. The club have a maximum they can spend on wages, but are then allowed 2 players who do not count on the cap.
The highest paid player in the world is Sonny Bill Williams who Toronto pay £3 million per season. Only £330,000 of his wage goes towards the cap so if they want to pay him £10,000,000 or £100,000,000 they are allowed to.
I would suggest that says there is no cap on players wages. Would you not agree?
If a club want to pay say 5 players £2 million each there is nothing whatever to stop them, they have to find the rest of their squad with little money remaining so would have to use accademy and amature players.
Do please let me know how and why this would be, as you state," by no means easy to introduce and comply with existing law", and also How it was, " "by no means easy to introduce" for RL.

For your information, 12 chairmen sit round a table every November and set out what is to happen going forward. In November 18 they stated that as of 2021 season the club cap will raise from £1.8 million to £2.2 million in SL. There will be NO raising of the money to count towards the cap in players wages.
Likewise, the Championship chairmen met and agreed a raise from £1.2 million to £1.6 million from 2021.

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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by biccynana » Sun May 10, 2020 7:01 pm

spen666 wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 9:29 am

Proving you can't read it understand English Language.
I think my ironyometer just broke.

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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by jjljks » Mon May 11, 2020 6:59 am

Boris will lend you his next Wednesday after you have had time to read the 50 page guide that goes with it.

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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by lo36789 » Mon May 11, 2020 5:03 pm

I think the bigger issue in football is how they distinguish salary payments from other expenses. That is the obvious way that clubs will circumvent and potential cap that is put in place.

Back in the day Brad Groves was employing a proportion of the Spennymoor team in his businesses how does that work in a semi-pro environment as in theory they may not pick up much of a salary from Spennymoor FC but what if "not-spennymoor FC limited" a completely independent entity happen to be paying them a salary.

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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by loan_star » Tue May 12, 2020 11:42 am


LoidLucan
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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by LoidLucan » Tue May 12, 2020 11:49 am

Looks like he's taken his bat and ball - and his money - home with him. They could be in a big financial hole, particularly if he hasn't fulfilled last season's financial commitments. So much for the altruistic fan handing over pots of cash to his beloved football club with no strings attached.

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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Tue May 12, 2020 12:53 pm

It would be interesting to get a take on what has happened from that Chester fan who did that vlog when we played them last season. Hope they pull through, but they may not have the financial clout that they've had previously.

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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by Darlo Dodger » Tue May 12, 2020 7:27 pm


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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Big decision for Chester fans to make.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Tue May 12, 2020 9:48 pm

This whole affair sounds a little "Raj like' to my ears.

That famous comedy double act Morley and johnson, I wonder if they are getting a little concerned?
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

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