The Team 20/21 season

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JE93
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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by JE93 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:09 pm

Darlofan97 wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:29 pm
MB86DFC wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:24 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:42 pm
The rent is calculated on a match basis, not per annum.

As far as I understand it, no games played at BM equals no rent due to DRFC to stage football matches.
It’s obviously not that as if it was we could walk away at any time with no cost. I expect it’s a match fee with a minimum guaranteed matches per year
See my previously reply to Divas.

Obviously, I am not implying we can walk away for nothing, we have a tenancy agreement to play our football matches there for xx years, we couldn’t just up-sticks and play elsewhere without compensating DRFC.

I am just explaining that we pay rent calculated on a match basis (i.e not a fixed amount per annum).

There will be additional costs shared I am sure, and a hefty termination fee if ever we wanted to leave prior to the tenancy agreement being up.

You’re misinterpreting what I am saying.
Other important point. We do not have a tenancy agreement. We have a licence agreement.

Darlo Dodger
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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by Darlo Dodger » Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:07 am

I think that it would be helpful if anyone commenting on the actual or potential liabilities under the agreement / contact / lease/ license with DRFC could mention whether or not they have seen, or have a copy of, the actual signed agreement.

On a somewhat tangential point while I am no contract / commercial property lawyer I do seem to remember from the dim, and increasingly distant, past that there is a doctrine of frustration in contract law and I have from time to time found myself wondering whether, and to what extent if any, it is applicable to many contractual issues after the onset of Covid-19 in the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frustrati ... nglish_law

JE93
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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by JE93 » Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:31 am

Darlo Dodger wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:07 am
I think that it would be helpful if anyone commenting on the actual or potential liabilities under the agreement / contact / lease/ license with DRFC could mention whether or not they have seen, or have a copy of, the actual signed agreement.

On a somewhat tangential point while I am no contract / commercial property lawyer I do seem to remember from the dim, and increasingly distant, past that there is a doctrine of frustration in contract law and I have from time to time found myself wondering whether, and to what extent if any, it is applicable to many contractual issues after the onset of Covid-19 in the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frustrati ... nglish_law
From memory of a slightly less distant past. Couple of things might apply.

Like you say the contract doctrine of frustration would require an event which renders the contract impossible to perform the contractual obligations of the party. Or it radically alters the performance obligations of the parties to the contract from those which were initially intended. My interpretation is that, as we are currently unable to play football there is no frustration of the license agreement to play there because 1) we're not allowed to play and 2) we have no games. When things change DRFC will be required to provide us an 'x' standard pitch and surroundings on which to play football. If they were unable to do that there may be potential for frustration, but until that point there is nothing to frustrate.

In addition, most contracts include 'forced majeure' clauses around exceptional circumstances. Which if applicable give the parties rights to vary or suspend the initial terms. I'd imagine these are the things that will come into effect first if they can be proved they were intended to apply to circumstances including pandemics/epidemics. Would potentially include things like rent payments in relation to the final unplayed home games of the season not being due as they were unable to be completed in exceptional circumstances.

As you say, I haven't seen the licence agreement so have no idea of the full terms etc.

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dfc4me
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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by dfc4me » Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:38 am

Ultimately it will be the government not the NL that decides when football at our level can return and how many spectators, if any, can attend. To start competitive football in September pre season needs to begin early August which is only 6 weeks away and I am not convinced the government will go for that. For me starting the league in October is much more realistic.
As for social distancing, with the fuss that both the hospitality industry and schools are making it is only a matter of time before it is reduced to 1 metre, which should allow for more than 25% capacity.
And what about face coverings being compulsory inside grounds. If it works for public transport and hospital visitors then it should work for watching sport. Admittedly it would look weird but at least we could watch football again.

Darlofan97
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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by Darlofan97 » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:10 am

Darlo Dodger wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:07 am
I think that it would be helpful if anyone commenting on the actual or potential liabilities under the agreement / contact / lease/ license with DRFC could mention whether or not they have seen, or have a copy of, the actual signed agreement.

On a somewhat tangential point while I am no contract / commercial property lawyer I do seem to remember from the dim, and increasingly distant, past that there is a doctrine of frustration in contract law and I have from time to time found myself wondering whether, and to what extent if any, it is applicable to many contractual issues after the onset of Covid-19 in the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frustrati ... nglish_law
No, I am just working off what I know or has been released over the recent 4 years.

I don’t think I have said anything that isn’t common knowledge or already confirmed over the recent 4 years. DJ confirmed in the Netcafe we pay DRFC on a game basis, so we won’t start paying until the football starts.

It’s also reasonable to assume that if we break the licence/tenancy that we would have to pay DRFC compensation, like we had to Shildon in 2012.

I never actually said we could walk away penny free, nor have I said anything that isn’t common knowledge or unreasonable.

Old Git
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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by Old Git » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:33 am

dfc4me wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:38 am
Ultimately it will be the government not the NL that decides when football at our level can return and how many spectators, if any, can attend. To start competitive football in September pre season needs to begin early August which is only 6 weeks away and I am not convinced the government will go for that. For me starting the league in October is much more realistic.
As for social distancing, with the fuss that both the hospitality industry and schools are making it is only a matter of time before it is reduced to 1 metre, which should allow for more than 25% capacity.
And what about face coverings being compulsory inside grounds. If it works for public transport and hospital visitors then it should work for watching sport. Admittedly it would look weird but at least we could watch football again.
Yes I was thinking that if the 2 metre rule was relaxed to 1 metre it may be possible to open grounds at our level with reduced capacity. Obviously people would have to be prepared to cooperate by coming in good time and showing common sense inside the ground. Also they would have to be prepared to be patient and leave in a controlled manner. Games would need to be restricted to season ticket holders and people buying tickets in advance. That would make admission easier and reduce queues. More stewards would be needed to police it and very few would be allowed in the bar area but it would be a price worth paying for the return of football. One difficulty would be toilets and not sure if that can be overcome satisfactorily.
Face masks could be worn although not sure if that is necessary for an outdoor activity. Of course it is ultimately the Government’s decision and I doubt they will see the return of non league as a massive priority.

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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by Spratts corner » Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:13 pm

Millwall fans used to wear surgical face coverings in the 70s

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don'tbuythesun
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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by don'tbuythesun » Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:19 pm

Only so they could get close up and give out "treatment"!

H1987
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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by H1987 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:07 pm

Is there anything the Arena fanboys won't seize upon as a reason to take us back to that dreadful old dive?

The capacity of Blackwell is 3,300... so even in such a situation where that 25 percent rule was enforced that's 825, not 750... the idea that walking away from Blackwell to play in the Arena would even make financial sense for the sake of 400 people doesn't even add up as we are quite obviously financially liable in some way for Blackwell. If it came to it, I'd assume 825 would cover our season ticket holders.

It'd probably make more sense to stick a concrete terrace in at the open end and get the capacity up at Blackwell than pay for two venues, so it's not even a good financial argument.

Quite honestly, I suspect we see a delayed season. I think the first steps will be generic guidance of 'crowds no bigger than X' which is what is going on in other European countries with less shambolic governments right now. We'll likely be absolutely fine when that comes around.

I think there's a harsh reality that football below the championship isn't viable without paying crowds and until crowds at those levels can attend games as normal then football may not happen. Even if Darlington fans have proven they will dig deep to save our club time and time again, it isn't a lot of good if we have no one to play because half of the league is in financial trouble, can't pay their players or afford to host games under abnormal circumstances.

I'm not personally expecting any football in September as things stand.

Darlofan97
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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by Darlofan97 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:18 pm

I'm not an Arena fan boy. I don't mind the Arena or BM.

I am however, being realistic to the situation which we are in and the proposed limits to both fan and hospitality capacity. This makes up a significant percentage of our turnover.

I'm intrigued at your point of the concrete terrace at Blackwell, given we would never get the financing, planning approval and construction in place prior to September (not even close), so it's a fairly invalid point.

We would be silly for not even considering it, or asking the question of the possibility of a temporary one season stay at the Arena if the terms are correct.

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Spyman
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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by Spyman » Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:43 pm

H1987 wrote:Is there anything the Arena fanboys won't seize upon as a reason to take us back to that dreadful old dive?

The capacity of Blackwell is 3,300... so even in such a situation where that 25 percent rule was enforced that's 825, not 750... the idea that walking away from Blackwell to play in the Arena would even make financial sense for the sake of 400 people doesn't even add up as we are quite obviously financially liable in some way for Blackwell. If it came to it, I'd assume 825 would cover our season ticket holders.

It'd probably make more sense to stick a concrete terrace in at the open end and get the capacity up at Blackwell than pay for two venues, so it's not even a good financial argument.

Quite honestly, I suspect we see a delayed season. I think the first steps will be generic guidance of 'crowds no bigger than X' which is what is going on in other European countries with less shambolic governments right now. We'll likely be absolutely fine when that comes around.

I think there's a harsh reality that football below the championship isn't viable without paying crowds and until crowds at those levels can attend games as normal then football may not happen. Even if Darlington fans have proven they will dig deep to save our club time and time again, it isn't a lot of good if we have no one to play because half of the league is in financial trouble, can't pay their players or afford to host games under abnormal circumstances.

I'm not personally expecting any football in September as things stand.
I would think the major plus for the arena in this situation over BM would he the infrastructure, rather than capacity.

The number of turnstiles, the number of toilets - far more suited to the current situation than BM where there are very limited facilities in that regard.

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On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

DC

EDJOHNS
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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by EDJOHNS » Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:03 am

H1987 wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:07 pm
Is there anything the Arena fanboys won't seize upon as a reason to take us back to that dreadful old dive?

The capacity of Blackwell is 3,300... so even in such a situation where that 25 percent rule was enforced that's 825, not 750... the idea that walking away from Blackwell to play in the Arena would even make financial sense for the sake of 400 people doesn't even add up as we are quite obviously financially liable in some way for Blackwell. If it came to it, I'd assume 825 would cover our season ticket holders.

It'd probably make more sense to stick a concrete terrace in at the open end and get the capacity up at Blackwell than pay for two venues, so it's not even a good financial argument.

Quite honestly, I suspect we see a delayed season. I think the first steps will be generic guidance of 'crowds no bigger than X' which is what is going on in other European countries with less shambolic governments right now. We'll likely be absolutely fine when that comes around.

I think there's a harsh reality that football below the championship isn't viable without paying crowds and until crowds at those levels can attend games as normal then football may not happen. Even if Darlington fans have proven they will dig deep to save our club time and time again, it isn't a lot of good if we have no one to play because half of the league is in financial trouble, can't pay their players or afford to host games under abnormal circumstances.

I'm not personally expecting any football in September as things stand.
I am not an arena fan, nor do I suggest returning for the short term. Your argument however has 1 rather large flaw.

The 25% rule would be to ensure social distancing. Moving to the arena, put our 2000 attendees in and social distancing would be no problem.

lo36789
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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by lo36789 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:28 am

EDJOHNS wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:03 am
put our 2000 attendees in and social distancing would be no problem.
2,000 attendees? I thought we were averaging about 1,300 these days.

al_quaker
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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by al_quaker » Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:33 am

lo36789 wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:28 am
EDJOHNS wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:03 am
put our 2000 attendees in and social distancing would be no problem.
2,000 attendees? I thought we were averaging about 1,300 these days.
1471 last season

lo36789
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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by lo36789 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:37 am

al_quaker wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:33 am
lo36789 wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:28 am
EDJOHNS wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:03 am
put our 2000 attendees in and social distancing would be no problem.
2,000 attendees? I thought we were averaging about 1,300 these days.
1471 last season
Cool. So as called out at 25% we are c. 825 in BM. I guess the Arena is by definition a best option if the cost to hire is < 600 attendees (minus VAT). In reality though I am just not sure that football below the Championship will restart.

In the FL and NL because of potential to have to restart behind closed doors will make the clubs unsustainable.

I think there is a much broader issue with semi-professional football though and it boils down to the contact tracing rules. If one of our players were to become ill then the whole squad plus any teams that we played in the past 7 days and any match officials would need to go into self-isolation for 2 weeks and would be unable to work for that time.

How many match officials are going to risk 2 weeks off work for £60?

H1987
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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by H1987 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:10 pm

Yep. I just don't see how clubs at our level or even the levels above can possibly afford to pay players / staff what they are being paid now when their income is being shredded. The Premier League and Championship would be fine because of TV rights and large fanbases.... but even in League 1 there are a lot of quite small clubs in there who would probably be driven to the wall if they have to keep paying players a full salary, even if the FA was going to absorb costs for testing and hosting matchdays etc.

I suspect the season may just be suspended until 2021. I don't see that the lower leagues playing in the summer for a year is too problematic, even if it clashes with the Euros. Leagues below the Championship play through the international break ordinarily. If I had to guess, I would expect a shortened season to take place between March - July 2021, with some semblance of normality hopefully returning in September 2021.

I think we have been coming to a natural breaking point in terms of costs in the game anyway, but I increasingly think the level above us being national scale is totally crazy. One logical way to save on costs is to regionalise the leagues, and maybe this might bring about some impetus to effect change. Far too many clubs in the lower echelons of the football league even, let alone in non-league football are going pop. I would fully back a restructuring of how the English leagues are set up, and I think now would be a great time to sit down and do that.

Vodka_Vic
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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by Vodka_Vic » Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:31 pm

Most other countries are regionalised to some degree from the 3rd tier down. As you say, to have that down to tier 5 is mad.

EDJOHNS
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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by EDJOHNS » Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:04 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:28 am
EDJOHNS wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:03 am
put our 2000 attendees in and social distancing would be no problem.
2,000 attendees? I thought we were averaging about 1,300 these days.
Can't win. If I had said 1300 someone would have said we get 2000 on a good day.

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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by EDJOHNS » Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:08 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:37 am
al_quaker wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:33 am
lo36789 wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:28 am
EDJOHNS wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:03 am
put our 2000 attendees in and social distancing would be no problem.
2,000 attendees? I thought we were averaging about 1,300 these days.
1471 last season
Cool. So as called out at 25% we are c. 825 in BM. I guess the Arena is by definition a best option if the cost to hire is < 600 attendees (minus VAT). In reality though I am just not sure that football below the Championship will restart.

In the FL and NL because of potential to have to restart behind closed doors will make the clubs unsustainable.

I think there is a much broader issue with semi-professional football though and it boils down to the contact tracing rules. If one of our players were to become ill then the whole squad plus any teams that we played in the past 7 days and any match officials would need to go into self-isolation for 2 weeks and would be unable to work for that time.

How many match officials are going to risk 2 weeks off work for £60?
Totally agree and further, I doubt leagues 1 and 2 will start any earlier than us.
I also expect to see either North south divides or to see some part time players playing in league 2 and possibly league 1 over the next 2-3 seasons as I simply do not think the financial hit will be finished after just 1 season.

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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by Vodka_Vic » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:05 pm

Adam Wrightson offered a new deal at Blyth

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HarrytheQuaker
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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by HarrytheQuaker » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:09 pm

Vodka_Vic wrote:Adam Wrightson offered a new deal at Blyth
Has he signed it??

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Vodka_Vic
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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by Vodka_Vic » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:27 pm

HarrytheQuaker wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:09 pm
Vodka_Vic wrote:Adam Wrightson offered a new deal at Blyth
Has he signed it??

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http://www.blythspartans.com/news-blyth ... list-2020/

Not sure.

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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by Darlogramps » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:57 pm

Vodka_Vic wrote:
HarrytheQuaker wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:09 pm
Vodka_Vic wrote:Adam Wrightson offered a new deal at Blyth
Has he signed it??

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

http://www.blythspartans.com/news-blyth ... list-2020/

Not sure.
From what Blyth have said, he’s been offered a new deal but not yet signed it.
If ever you're bored or miserable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlZohZoadGY

Old Git
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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by Old Git » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:36 am

Tough times ahead at Blyth by the looks of it. Budget cut for next season and remember that is on top of cuts that were made for this season and led AA to move on. Big job for Nelson in his new managerial career and its going to be a difficult task for him.

LoidLucan
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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by LoidLucan » Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:22 am

Looks like Chorley are also having major cutbacks. Most of the established names are leaving as spending is pared back following their ill-fated stint in the National League.

JE93
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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by JE93 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:19 pm

See Adam Boyes has signed for Marske. Great signing at that level for them. Would have been very nervous signing him that, depending on any kick back on those betting charges he got back in January/February time.

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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by QUAKERMAN2 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:37 pm

JE93 wrote:See Adam Boyes has signed for Marske. Great signing at that level for them. Would have been very nervous signing him that, depending on any kick back on those betting charges he got back in January/February time.
That is a major shock, nothing against Marske but this guy was scoring goals for fun prior to signing for The Pride.Cannot believe he has opted for Marske at this stage of his career.


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JE93
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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by JE93 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:48 pm

QUAKERMAN2 wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:37 pm
JE93 wrote:See Adam Boyes has signed for Marske. Great signing at that level for them. Would have been very nervous signing him that, depending on any kick back on those betting charges he got back in January/February time.
That is a major shock, nothing against Marske but this guy was scoring goals for fun prior to signing for The Pride.Cannot believe he has opted for Marske at this stage of his career.


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Agreed. Not sure how old he is, but was very much expecting him to turn back up at BPA now Bower and Boshell are back in charge. Should score for fun in that league.

lo36789
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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by lo36789 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:16 pm

Wonder how long he is contracted for and how easy it would be to move if things were resolved around the betting offences.

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Re: The Team 20/21 season

Post by Darlo_Pete » Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:51 pm

JE93 wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:48 pm
QUAKERMAN2 wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:37 pm
JE93 wrote:See Adam Boyes has signed for Marske. Great signing at that level for them. Would have been very nervous signing him that, depending on any kick back on those betting charges he got back in January/February time.
That is a major shock, nothing against Marske but this guy was scoring goals for fun prior to signing for The Pride.Cannot believe he has opted for Marske at this stage of his career.


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Agreed. Not sure how old he is, but was very much expecting him to turn back up at BPA now Bower and Boshell are back in charge. Should score for fun in that league.
Apparently he's 38, so I can understand why clubs further up the pyramid wouldn't want to take a risk on him. But he could be a great signing for Marske.

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