Cartman +Burn

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HarrytheQuaker
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Cartman +Burn

Post by HarrytheQuaker » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:30 pm

See he has signed for Scarborough
And Jonny Burn to whitby also

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Re: Cartman +Burn

Post by QUAKERMAN2 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:29 pm

HarrytheQuaker wrote:See he has signed for Scarborough
And Jonny Burn to whitby also

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Good move for Nathan, they seem pretty ambitious, get good crowds and have a new ground.As for Burn, from Bristol Rovers to Whitby in the space of a couple of seasons speaks for itself.


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Re: Cartman +Burn

Post by Darlo_Pete » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:15 pm

I remember Cartman scoring against Scarborough when they played at Bridlington. Was that the occasion when Cartman turned up with his family at a fish & chip shop after the game & all the Darlo fans in the shop insisted on paying for Cartman's fish & chips?

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Re: Cartman +Burn

Post by lo36789 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:27 pm

QUAKERMAN2 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:29 pm
HarrytheQuaker wrote:See he has signed for Scarborough
And Jonny Burn to whitby also

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Good move for Nathan, they seem pretty ambitious, get good crowds and have a new ground.As for Burn, from Bristol Rovers to Whitby in the space of a couple of seasons speaks for itself.

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Don't know why people always want to have a dig based on whether they like someone or not. Burn dropped to us from the FL and it didn't work out. He was slated him for then being happy to take money in the NL. Ultimately Whitby are a competitive side in the National League Premier, only one division below us.

If anything it suggests Burn has sorted his head out and is wanting to make a go of it in the highest level he possibly can, and maybe just maybe rather than sticking a knife in he deserves credit and some well wishing. Pretty sure he is a Darlington fan when all said and done.

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Re: Cartman +Burn

Post by Vodka_Vic » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:42 pm

Sorry, but I for one am not defending him. He had a very poor attitude for us when he played and took up a big chunk of the budget for 2 years when this should have been a chance for him to reignite his career. Apparently didn't want to know when AA came in and was happy to sit on a wage rather than go out on loan.

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Re: Cartman +Burn

Post by QUAKERMAN2 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:58 pm

lo36789 wrote:
QUAKERMAN2 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:29 pm
HarrytheQuaker wrote:See he has signed for Scarborough
And Jonny Burn to whitby also

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Good move for Nathan, they seem pretty ambitious, get good crowds and have a new ground.As for Burn, from Bristol Rovers to Whitby in the space of a couple of seasons speaks for itself.

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Don't know why people always want to have a dig based on whether they like someone or not. Burn dropped to us from the FL and it didn't work out. He was slated him for then being happy to take money in the NL. Ultimately Whitby are a competitive side in the National League Premier, only one division below us.

If anything it suggests Burn has sorted his head out and is wanting to make a go of it in the highest level he possibly can, and maybe just maybe rather than sticking a knife in he deserves credit and some well wishing. Pretty sure he is a Darlington fan when all said and done.
If he is a Darlo fan like you suggest then why did he rip us off, was not interested in pulling his weight and playing for his home town club, and even after AA joined us he showed zero desire to sort himself out.How can you defend him for gods sake.


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Cartman +Burn

Post by Darlogramps » Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:01 pm

Vodka_Vic wrote:Sorry, but I for one am not defending him. He had a very poor attitude for us when he played and took up a big chunk of the budget for 2 years when this should have been a chance for him to reignite his career. Apparently didn't want to know when AA came in and was happy to sit on a wage rather than go out on loan.
Agree with this. There was more to it than “didn’t work out”.

AA’s interviews spoke volumes last year shortly after he took over. On several occasions he referenced “one or two from the last season (I.E. 2018-19) not pulling their weight” and having a bad attitude.

Burn never appeared in the pre-season squads, or indeed in the squad during the early part of the season (including when we had an injury crisis) while he was still taking a wage from us, so it’s fairly clear who AA was referring to.

If he’s got his head sorted then fair play. But it doesn’t mean we should start rewriting history by saying his spell here “just didn’t work out”.
Last edited by Darlogramps on Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cartman +Burn

Post by Old Git » Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:04 pm

Very thin argument for defending Burn. If he is a Darlo fan I hope we don’t get any more fans like him.

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Re: Cartman +Burn

Post by Darlofan97 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:28 pm

Always makes me laugh when Darlo fans slate Burn for not ripping up his contract or moving on when WE offered him a 2-year deal.

Don’t get me wrong, he was awful for us. I honestly don’t know why Whitby have signed him but contracts protect both the player & club and give either, or both, some security.

You can’t have it both ways - the club made a mistake ever giving him a 2-year deal on a good money yet we all point the finger to Burn as the villain.

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Re: Cartman +Burn

Post by lo36789 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:38 pm

It's more does anyone really know what was going on in the lads head at the time? Why he was so lacking in motivation after dropping down through levels so significantly.

I do think in an age when people are more aware of mental health maybe just maybe there isn't the need to still go after someone.

It may have been entirely mercenary behaviour but the one thing I took from Liam Hughes last season is never assume what is going on in someone else's head.

Equally I wouldn't condemn a players ability based on a fleeting spell with us. Nathan Thomas and Lewis Wing didn't exactly set the world a light with us...

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Re: Cartman +Burn

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:41 pm

Darlo_Pete wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:15 pm
I remember Cartman scoring against Scarborough when they played at Bridlington. Was that the occasion when Cartman turned up with his family at a fish & chip shop after the game & all the Darlo fans in the shop insisted on paying for Cartman's fish & chips?
God what a bunch of arse lickers.

No one buys me fish and chips when I do something good.
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Re: Cartman +Burn

Post by Darlogramps » Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:45 pm

Darlofan97 wrote:Always makes me laugh when Darlo fans slate Burn for not ripping up his contract or moving on when WE offered him a 2-year deal.

Don’t get me wrong, he was awful for us. I honestly don’t know why Whitby have signed him but contracts protect both the player & club and give either, or both, some security.

You can’t have it both ways - the club made a mistake ever giving him a 2-year deal on a good money yet we all point the finger to Burn as the villain.
Surely the issue is more his poor attitude, despite being given two years of stability.

If he no longer wanted to play for the club, legally he’s within his rights to take the money. But morally, is it particularly right to take money when you no longer want to play for the club which has invested in you for two years? I’d argue it isn’t.

We’ve made mistakes on players before, but at least they’ve shown a willingness to at least try. The fact AA didn’t feel he could put a senior player, on a good wage, even into the matchday squad in the midst of an injury crisis in the opening weeks of the season speaks volumes.

In that context, I think it’s perfectly fine to “point the finger to Burn as the villain”, as you put it. In the end, he moved on which was the best for all parties.
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Re: Cartman +Burn

Post by QUAKERMAN2 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:55 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Darlofan97 wrote:Always makes me laugh when Darlo fans slate Burn for not ripping up his contract or moving on when WE offered him a 2-year deal.

Don’t get me wrong, he was awful for us. I honestly don’t know why Whitby have signed him but contracts protect both the player & club and give either, or both, some security.

You can’t have it both ways - the club made a mistake ever giving him a 2-year deal on a good money yet we all point the finger to Burn as the villain.
Surely the issue is more his poor attitude, despite being given two years of stability.

If he no longer wanted to play for the club, legally he’s within his rights to take the money. But morally, is it particularly right to take money when you no longer want to play for the club which has invested in you for two years? I’d argue it isn’t.

We’ve made mistakes on players before, but at least they’ve shown a willingness to at least try. The fact AA didn’t feel he could put a senior player, on a good wage, even into the matchday squad in the midst of an injury crisis in the opening weeks of the season speaks volumes.

In that context, I think it’s perfectly fine to “point the finger to Burn as the villain”, as you put it. In the end, he moved on which was the best for all parties.
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Re: Cartman +Burn

Post by Darlofan97 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:08 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:45 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:Always makes me laugh when Darlo fans slate Burn for not ripping up his contract or moving on when WE offered him a 2-year deal.

Don’t get me wrong, he was awful for us. I honestly don’t know why Whitby have signed him but contracts protect both the player & club and give either, or both, some security.

You can’t have it both ways - the club made a mistake ever giving him a 2-year deal on a good money yet we all point the finger to Burn as the villain.
Surely the issue is more his poor attitude, despite being given two years of stability.

If he no longer wanted to play for the club, legally he’s within his rights to take the money. But morally, is it particularly right to take money when you no longer want to play for the club which has invested in you for two years? I’d argue it isn’t.

We’ve made mistakes on players before, but at least they’ve shown a willingness to at least try. The fact AA didn’t feel he could put a senior player, on a good wage, even into the matchday squad in the midst of an injury crisis in the opening weeks of the season speaks volumes.

In that context, I think it’s perfectly fine to “point the finger to Burn as the villain”, as you put it. In the end, he moved on which was the best for all parties.
Yes, Burn did have a poor attitude, but he also did at York prior to signing for us. His career had also snowballed prior. Due diligence?

I’d also dispute the “is it morally right to take money when you no longer want to play for the club” point that you make because there was no concrete evidence suggesting this. He had a poor attitude by all accounts but never expressed a desire to not play for the club or refuse to attend training. That would, obviously, be a breach of contract.

I’m not hiding behind the fact Burn was poor on the pitch and had a bad attitude, but upon reflection you have to equally question the decision making behind awarding him a 2 year contract. Especially when, reportedly, he approached us to sign.

I always think it’s important to think of these situations outside the football bubble we as fans have, and compare the situation to employment that me, you or many others on this board are involved in. If my employer told me to leave before my contract end date and join another business for less money, I’d tell them to get stuffed unless I received a pay-off.

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Re: Cartman +Burn

Post by Vodka_Vic » Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:32 pm

In a standard job if you were not pulling your weight and doing the bare minimum whilst having a bad attitude then you would be on competence procedures.

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Cartman +Burn

Post by Darlogramps » Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:35 pm

Darlofan97 wrote: Yes, Burn did have a poor attitude, but he also did at York prior to signing for us. His career had also snowballed prior. Due diligence?
Well it was TW who made the signing, and no one can say I never questioned his judgement or ability. I was one of TW’s biggest critics (and got significant abuse on here because of it).

But then again, scouts and managers can’t see into the future. No one can ever 100% predict if a player will be a success.

All ifs and buts, but if Burn had a storming time with us, we’d be saying how brilliant and shrewd it was to put him on a two-year contract. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

But to me, it’s not relevant to the criticisms of his attitude. Even if the club have made a mistake, it doesn’t excuse a lack of commitment, lack of motivation or bad attitude.
Darlofan97 wrote: I’d also dispute the “is it morally right to take money when you no longer want to play for the club” point that you make because there was no concrete evidence suggesting this. He had a poor attitude by all accounts but never expressed a desire to not play for the club or refuse to attend training. That would, obviously, be a breach of contract.
I think there’s plenty of evidence suggesting he didn’t want to play for the club (want being the operative word).Obviously he couldn’t out and out refuse, as that would be breach of contract. But was he fully motivated to go out and do the best he could, every single game? Evidently not, so I think all the criticisms of him are perfectly fair. Compare Burn and Hatfield in terms of attitude and motivation, and that explains fans’ annoyance with Burn.

As I said, AA’s comments in pre-season, and the fact Burn didn’t appear for us, even during an injury crisis, demonstrates AA didn’t feel he could play Burn. That’s a damning indictment of a supposed boyhood fan who only a short time previously was playing in EFL.

I’m happy to grant you it was a bad signing, and the two-year contract was a mistake. It’s not the first one either (remember James Caton). After previous indulgences, it seems the club have learned from mistakes and are implementing a more effective model for ourselves. Making mistakes is no bad thing, provided you learn from it, which the club seemingly are.

Reading through, there’s actually quite a lot we agree on.

But for me Burn getting a two-year contract doesn’t change the fact fans have every right to be annoyed at Burn’s lack of commitment, motivation and poor attitude.
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Re: Cartman +Burn

Post by Darlofan97 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:02 pm

There is certainly a lot which we agree on. The ability, commitment & attitude were all lacking.

Criticisms of him are absolutely fair in regards to his ability/attitude.

The issue I take is the fans who just wanted him to rip up his contract. We can’t blame him for not doing this - he didn’t force the club in to giving him a lucrative 2-year contract. We need to look closer to home to avoid this happening again and, to be fair, the club have actually done this recently.

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Re: Cartman +Burn

Post by Darlofan97 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:04 pm

Vodka_Vic wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:32 pm
In a standard job if you were not pulling your weight and doing the bare minimum whilst having a bad attitude then you would be on competence procedures.
Of course, but as we know this isn’t an option for players contracts.

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Re: Cartman +Burn

Post by lo36789 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:05 pm

Tbh my only thing on it is fair enough be frustrated with how it turned out but all of the things called out that were up with Burn are to some extent clinical signs of depression (diminished commitment, motivation, attitude and more broadly performance).

I have no evidence he was. It's a very personal thing and we'd have no right to know. That said I have fortunately identified this before in colleagues and managed to get them the help they needed when they were struggling.

Given what we all learnt from Hughes last year maybe just maybe we shouldn't always be so quick to judge and certainly continue to hold a grudge when can anyone really say they know for sure?

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Re: Cartman +Burn

Post by loan_star » Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:01 pm

From what I understand Burn was offered loan moves to get some game time and he turned them down. If a player is struggling and not playing any football at all then a loan move is the best thing to do, yet he didn't take them up on it.
So despite being a massive disappointment on the pitch, he made the situation worse by giving the impression he wasn't bothered about sorting his game out.
Compare that to Caton who did want to play and sort his game out by going on loan.

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Cartman +Burn

Post by Darlogramps » Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:32 pm

lo36789 wrote: I have no evidence he was.
That resolves that then.

Speaking as someone who has had mental health issues, I’m going to politely ask you stop speculating about someone else you’ve never met on a public forum when you admit yourself you have no evidence.

If I was being particularly uncharitable, I’d say you were using mental health as a means of shutting down debate, which would be cynical and wrong.

By all means disagree, but hypothetically speculating about the mental health of a person you’ve never met on an open forum can be as damaging as being critical of their footballing abilities.

So don’t do it.
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Re: Cartman +Burn

Post by lo36789 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:44 pm

The point is "be kind" costs nowt and if you don't know either way maybe it's a good starting point.

I was clear I don't know either way but maybe if more people thought to be kind first might be beneficial to many others in the long run...

But no...Blue eyes Cartman drops a division to join Scarborough 8th in NPLPD (1.42 PPG) and its a good move showing ambition. Burn moves up two divisions to join Whitby 7th in NPLPD (1.61 PPG) and it "speaks for itself" in comparison

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Cartman +Burn

Post by Darlogramps » Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:31 pm

Speculating openly that a stranger has had clinical depression without any knowledge is not “being kind”.
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Re: Cartman +Burn

Post by lo36789 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:12 am

You didn't seem to pick up on more subtle suggestions that if you don't know the facts or situation then maybe being kind should be the starting point until you know otherwise.

And not even just being kind - just not being unnecessarily vindictive in a straight comparison between two people.

The point was to emphasise that you can never know what is in someone's head. The exact behaviours that people are calling out as what makes someone such a bad individual that they deserve to be called out on it repeatedly can be a lot more complex.

I reiterated , and you quoted me on it helpfully, that I am not diagnosing anything or speculating either way as I "do not know". I am simply saying if you don't know why would you make your starting position one of vindictiveness?

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Re: Cartman +Burn

Post by Darlogramps » Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:01 am

lo36789 wrote:Tbh my only thing on it is fair enough be frustrated with how it turned out but all of the things called out that were up with Burn are to some extent clinical signs of depression (diminished commitment, motivation, attitude and more broadly performance).

I have no evidence he was. It's a very personal thing and we'd have no right to know. That said I have fortunately identified this before in colleagues and managed to get them the help they needed when they were struggling.

Given what we all learnt from Hughes last year maybe just maybe we shouldn't always be so quick to judge and certainly continue to hold a grudge when can anyone really say they know for sure?

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Cartman +Burn

Post by Darlogramps » Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:36 am

lo36789 wrote:You didn't seem to pick up on more subtle suggestions that if you don't know the facts or situation then maybe being kind should be the starting point until you know otherwise.

And not even just being kind - just not being unnecessarily vindictive in a straight comparison between two people.

The point was to emphasise that you can never know what is in someone's head. The exact behaviours that people are calling out as what makes someone such a bad individual that they deserve to be called out on it repeatedly can be a lot more complex.

I reiterated , and you quoted me on it helpfully, that I am not diagnosing anything or speculating either way as I "do not know". I am simply saying if you don't know why would you make your starting position one of vindictiveness?
Errr, if you’re not speculating on his mental health, what is this that you posted?

“All of the things called out that were up with Burn are to some extent clinical signs of depression (diminished commitment, motivation, attitude and more broadly performance).”

That is clear, blatant linking of Burn and clinical depression, right there. And this is the very definition of speculation, linking two separate things with no evidence to support it. You’re saying very much it might have been a possibility. Deny it all you like, but it’s right there.

You’ve don’t seem to understand that linking Burn to mental health in the way you’ve done is speculation. And that’s just as damaging. If you have no evidence, why even bring up the suggestion?

If you’re going to flat out deny your own actions, despite it being blatantly obvious what you’ve done, then it’s pointless discussing anything with you. And to be fair, you have a history of this, denying the obviously true.

Also, I don’t see why you’ve conflated criticism with vindictiveness, when the two are very different. I didn’t read Quakerman2’s post as being particularly vindictive. It was his honestly held opinion. Nor is there anything in this thread I’d judge as being vindictive really.

Your questioning of his logic, (why is a drop down to Step 4 good, but a move up to Step 3 bad?) is perfectly legitimate. But now you’ve tied yourself in a speculative mental health discussion too, which is frankly ridiculous.

Personally, I find the whole “Be Kind” stuff to be hypocritical nonsense, usually perpetuated by people who are quite willing to be unkind when it suits them (I include you in that btw).

As long as the criticism is fair, based on fact and is honestly held, I see no issue with it. And all the criticisms of Burn are perfectly fair. Otherwise you’re going down the route of using mental health to shut down all player criticism, which actually is very dangerous.
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Re: Cartman +Burn

Post by lo36789 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:33 am

The original remark was quite clearly a dig at the person not the move - as I have pointed out it is a little illogical otherwise.

Anyway I've already over explained the point trying to be made. Why have your default position as having a dig when default could be to wish the lad well and not hold a grudge when you never know the full story.

If you still think my point was something else then that's your prerogative I guess.

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Re: Cartman +Burn

Post by Darlogramps » Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:55 am

lo36789 wrote:The original remark was quite clearly a dig at the person not the move - as I have pointed out it is a little illogical otherwise.

Anyway I've already over explained the point trying to be made. Why have your default position as having a dig when default could be to wish the lad well and not hold a grudge when you never know the full story.

If you still think my point was something else then that's your prerogative I guess.
And again, you openly linked a stranger with mental health problems.

You invented the suggestion he might have had depression (your words) to support your own argument, despite not knowing anything about him.

Using mental health as a tool to try and win an argument is cynical and wrong.

I see the point you were trying to make, but you’ve done so very badly and clumsily, and in a way which makes you look cynical and desperate.
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Re: Cartman +Burn

Post by Vodka_Vic » Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:01 pm

People here I think have been very fair. They're not having a dig at the person, they're having a dig at his attitude.

And if I can add something else to the debate here. If he had been so low in confidence that he couldn't face playing fooball, and that's why he refused loan moves, then he wouldnt have moved to Whickham even before the pieces of his torn up contract had been placed in recycling.

Nor do I believe that it was being at Darlington that was particularly toxic for him. Look at the support given to Liam Hughes with his issues by the club. He has gone on record as saying how supportive the club is to its players. From what I hear the club tried everything to motivate him and the ill-feeling was instigated by him. Under these circumstances I think people have a right to question his behaviour.

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Re: Cartman +Burn

Post by LoidLucan » Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:21 pm

This is what Tommy Wright had to say after sidelining Burn and calling on him to show some fight:

“The reality is that Jonny has not done well enough to stay in the team. He knows my thoughts on that and he agrees with me. He will have to be patient, he will have to work hard in training and it’s up to him to react, I want to see a bit of fight from him. He came to this club as a local lad and I want to see him fighting for it.”

It's clear as a bell that he thought he wasn't putting enough into it and a bit scary that he had to issue a public reminder to work hard in training.

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