Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

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MCFCDarlo3
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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by MCFCDarlo3 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:34 pm

Comfortably_numb wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:00 pm
Darlogramps wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:48 pm
Plans afoot for a salary cap in the National League as well.

900k limit in the National League, 600k at our level is what’s been proposed.
a good idea. wonder how it will be policed though? will some clubs 'get round' this by adding extras to the overall benefits package for players (free houses, cars etc?)
You would think HMRC would want to know about benefits in kind so records should be available.

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by spen666 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:39 pm

Mister e wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:18 pm
Darlopartisan wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:38 pm
The FA have turned down Bury fc application to rejoin the league, they have told them to reapply to join the NLS next season
...... Also looks like Chesterfield have become the latest club to become fan owned definitely the way forward I still think.
That's a big ground for a fan owned club to maintain! The upkeep will be significant

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by LoidLucan » Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:49 pm

Plucky little fairytale club Salford City lost £32,000 a week in getting promoted from National North in 2017-18 and in the National League in 2018/19 they were losing £63,000 a week (total of £3.3m) in getting promoted to the EFL. Their owners Project 92 Ltd had lent the club over £5.4 million by June 2019.


It's amazing what you can achieve with some passion and a big heart :D
Last edited by LoidLucan on Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

spen666
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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by spen666 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:04 pm

LoidLucan wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:49 pm
Plucky little fairytale club Salford City lost £32,000 a week in getting promoted from National North in 2017-18 and in the National League in 2018/19 they were losing £64,000 a week (total of £3.3m) in getting promoted to the EFL. Their owners Project 92 Ltd had lent the club over £5.4 million by June 2019.


It's amazing what you can achieve with some passion and a big heart :D
Be shafted now by the new salary caps for League 1 & League 2 clubs ( £2.5m and £1.5m I think it is)

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by Vokuhila » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:05 pm

LoidLucan wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:49 pm
Plucky little fairytale club Salford City lost £32,000 a week in getting promoted from National North in 2017-18 and in the National League in 2018/19 they were losing £64,000 a week (total of £3.3m) in getting promoted to the EFL. Their owners Project 92 Ltd had lent the club over £5.4 million by June 2019.


It's amazing what you can achieve with some passion and a big heart :D
#againstallodds

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by LoidLucan » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:32 pm

spen666 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:04 pm
LoidLucan wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:49 pm
Plucky little fairytale club Salford City lost £32,000 a week in getting promoted from National North in 2017-18 and in the National League in 2018/19 they were losing £64,000 a week (total of £3.3m) in getting promoted to the EFL. Their owners Project 92 Ltd had lent the club over £5.4 million by June 2019.


It's amazing what you can achieve with some passion and a big heart :D
Be shafted now by the new salary caps for League 1 & League 2 clubs ( £2.5m and £1.5m I think it is)
I'm sure Peter Lim has plenty of masters of creative accounting at his disposal.

norwich darlo
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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by norwich darlo » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:09 pm

Droylsden has withdrawn from the Northern Premier for the coming season and all cup comps.

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by Darlogramps » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:35 pm

Darlopartisan wrote:The FA have turned down Bury fc application to rejoin the league, they have told them to reapply to join the NLS next season
Here’s the take of Steve Dale (Bury FC owner):

https://www.buryfc.co.uk/news/latest-st ... gust-2020/

Answers on a postcard if anyone can decipher that rambling illiterate mess of a statement. The crux seems to be Dale once again blaming everyone else but himself.

An absolute shambles of a human being. Staggering there are still Bury FC fans willing to back him, and not the fan-owned new club.
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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by QUAKERMAN2 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:02 pm

Darlogramps wrote:Plans afoot for a salary cap in the National League as well.

900k limit in the National League, 600k at our level is what’s been proposed.
This is great news if it is applied, more a level playing field and something DJ alluded to in a recent interview with Ray.Not before time and not great news for the big spenders in NLN.
Over to you York, Brackley, Fylde, Gloucester and last but not least The Pride

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by lo36789 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:46 pm

Comfortably_numb wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:00 pm
Darlogramps wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:48 pm
Plans afoot for a salary cap in the National League as well.

900k limit in the National League, 600k at our level is what’s been proposed.
a good idea. wonder how it will be policed though? will some clubs 'get round' this by adding extras to the overall benefits package for players (free houses, cars etc?)
I'd be more concerned about who "pays" the players than free houses etc.

I suspect GAS may get a few more on their headcount if it comes in and really having a second income is to be expected and what rights would the FA have to audit a third party company that isn't affiliated to football.

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by jjljks » Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:19 pm

Finally FA trying to get some sanity into the world of football but as someone already said, the teams with most creative accountants will top their leagues. At least it is a start, but can see all sorts of schemes like teams allowing direct sponsoring of players etc etc

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by LoidLucan » Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:14 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:46 pm
Comfortably_numb wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:00 pm
Darlogramps wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:48 pm
Plans afoot for a salary cap in the National League as well.

900k limit in the National League, 600k at our level is what’s been proposed.
a good idea. wonder how it will be policed though? will some clubs 'get round' this by adding extras to the overall benefits package for players (free houses, cars etc?)
I'd be more concerned about who "pays" the players than free houses etc.

I suspect GAS may get a few more on their headcount if it comes in and really having a second income is to be expected and what rights would the FA have to audit a third party company that isn't affiliated to football.
But it's not a third-party company that isn't affiliated to football. Spennymoor Town FC is effectively owned by GAS. They have the same head office address and Spennymoor Town are described as a "related party" with "common directorship".

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by lo36789 » Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:31 am

I am not sure why you are sticking on that - we all know the relationship between GAS and Spennymoor...

The point I was making was that a wage cap is no exactly hard to get around simply by paying players for "other" servces through another company and that the FA wouldn't have a right to govern that other company.

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by QUAKERMAN2 » Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:56 am

lo36789 wrote:I am not sure why you are sticking on that - we all know the relationship between GAS and Spennymoor...

The point I was making was that a wage cap is no exactly hard to get around simply by paying players for "other" servces through another company and that the FA wouldn't have a right to govern that other company.
Are you saying possibly splitting their wage costs between playing for Spenny and being employed by GAS ?

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by EDJOHNS » Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:11 am

I see the PFA have jumped in and are saying the cap in league 1 and 2 is "illegal" and that the PFA should have been involved with the discussions.

Now I am openly anti unionist, but they really should have either checked their facts or chosen their words better.
While there may be a problem if individual players were aimed at to be capped there is no way for it to be illegal for any group of clubs to say "To join our club the maximum you can spend on player wages is £XYZ.
The clubs can pay any player whatever they like within that and either have a small squad or have a number of amateurs amongst their squads to make up the numbers.

I can actually see a number of league 1 and 2 clubs reverting to the idea of having a number of part time players as it used to be.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53696424

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by lo36789 » Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:23 am

QUAKERMAN2 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:56 am
lo36789 wrote:I am not sure why you are sticking on that - we all know the relationship between GAS and Spennymoor...

The point I was making was that a wage cap is no exactly hard to get around simply by paying players for "other" servces through another company and that the FA wouldn't have a right to govern that other company.
Are you saying possibly splitting their wage costs between playing for Spenny and being employed by GAS ?

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Basically - it was an example it's not the most creative but I am not sure legally much could be done about it.

Employ the players for "work" in a completely separate legal entity from the football club.

The player will only care what their total income is.

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by Footifanreturns » Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:44 pm

Back in the day.
I seem to remember Darlo players like Brian Henderson & Ron Greener " working" for John Neasham the car dealership in Darlington, John Neasham happened to be the club chairman at that time.
I sure that was done by lots of other clubs especially in the days of the maximum wage.
Not because of a wage cap, but a way to supplement a players income.

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by onewayup » Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:27 pm

Very true, other well known companies within darlington also employed players.

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by jjljks » Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:27 am

Professional Footballers Association are now claiming the salary cap to be unenforceable, so we obviously haven't heard the last of this

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by eek » Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:16 am

jjljks wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:27 am
Professional Footballers Association are now claiming the salary cap to be unenforceable, so we obviously haven't heard the last of this
They can claim what they want - both Rugby League and union have caps so I would love to see their argument.

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by onewayup » Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:34 am

They don't have any argument, it's just too much trouble for them ,they won't want the money bags clubs continually blaming them for being unable to move forward when their money bags owners say they want to put money into the clubs albeit by way of loans .
Which is exactly why a cap is needed and why so many clubs fail.

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by lo36789 » Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:52 am

onewayup wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:34 am
They don't have any argument, it's just too much trouble for them
The PFA are just a union. They wouldn't be responsible for enforcing their stance will be to protect their paying members...in reality you wouldn't expect any union to come out and oppose any ceiling to earnings capacity of their members.

The FA equally won't be the enforcers of this - this is very much a potential league / competition directive and rule - so would be their responsibility to enforce.

The EFL don't have a particularly strong record for handing out punishments in a timely manner where there are breaches of their rules observed.

Ultimately for the EFL to put this rule in place it would be up to it's members (ie. the clubs) to vote it through. I suspect by the time it gets to that the clubs will have worked out how they will get around it.

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by onewayup » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:10 pm

Clubs fail,an unscrupulous owner pulls the plug, stops financing and requires his loans back .his overspending forces the issue, that is why the system needs regulatory laws, PFA have got to be involved as it's their players that suffer the indignity of being thrown out of football .as it stands more clubs will endup going to the wall.
Because of an owner's vanity project.
Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture.

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by Darlogramps » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:22 pm

onewayup wrote:Clubs fail,an unscrupulous owner pulls the plug, stops financing and requires his loans back .his overspending forces the issue, that is why the system needs regulatory laws, PFA have got to be involved as it's their players that suffer the indignity of being thrown out of football .as it stands more clubs will endup going to the wall.
Because of an owner's vanity project.
Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture.
A salary cap won’t do anything to help clubs if owners suddenly pull out. You still need money to pay wages, even if they are limited by a cap.

It will however limit the ability of clubs to spend beyond their means and incurring major losses (which some might call cheating).

The big issue with the EFL cap is that the Championship won’t have one, which thereby increases the gulf between the divisions and makes it harder for sides promoted out of League 1 to compete.
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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:28 pm

QUAKERMAN2 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:02 pm
Darlogramps wrote:Plans afoot for a salary cap in the National League as well.

900k limit in the National League, 600k at our level is what’s been proposed.
This is great news if it is applied, more a level playing field and something DJ alluded to in a recent interview with Ray.Not before time and not great news for the big spenders in NLN.
Over to you York, Brackley, Fylde, Gloucester and last but not least The Pride

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I'd be surprised if the Pride's wage bill is above 600k.

As much as they can out pay us for players, we're operating in the region of 300k budget. There's just no need for them to have a budget more than double ours in order to compete, especially as they are also part time. It'd be a very worrying precedent if they were to pay that much for P/T players.

I'd be well happy if a salary cap came in to being in the NL and NLN, if it could be enforced. Although a club in our position could not get near 600k/900k anyway from current funding, it does still cut the gap between the haves and have nots.

And 1.5m in L2 is very sensible given all of the TV and league money available to clubs.

Some will argue that it is not fair on the bigger clubs who in some instances may be able to pay more in wages than the salary caps allow, but in their cases they may make a healthy profit for once. In their cases they still could have a edge on players if they make profit, as there would be money to pay bigger transfer fees.
#Arenaherewecome

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:31 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:22 pm
onewayup wrote:Clubs fail,an unscrupulous owner pulls the plug, stops financing and requires his loans back .his overspending forces the issue, that is why the system needs regulatory laws, PFA have got to be involved as it's their players that suffer the indignity of being thrown out of football .as it stands more clubs will endup going to the wall.
Because of an owner's vanity project.
Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture.
A salary cap won’t do anything to help clubs if owners suddenly pull out. You still need money to pay wages, even if they are limited by a cap.

It will however limit the ability of clubs to spend beyond their means and incurring major losses (which some might call cheating).

The big issue with the EFL cap is that the Championship won’t have one, which thereby increases the gulf between the divisions and makes it harder for sides promoted out of League 1 to compete.
To be fair most lower league clubs would not expect to be able to compete in the Championship where you regularly have clubs with gates of 20,000 and 30,000. Just getting there and surviving a season or two would be a dream scenario.
#Arenaherewecome

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Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by Darlogramps » Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:47 pm

Ghost_Of_1883 wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:22 pm
onewayup wrote:Clubs fail,an unscrupulous owner pulls the plug, stops financing and requires his loans back .his overspending forces the issue, that is why the system needs regulatory laws, PFA have got to be involved as it's their players that suffer the indignity of being thrown out of football .as it stands more clubs will endup going to the wall.
Because of an owner's vanity project.
Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture.
A salary cap won’t do anything to help clubs if owners suddenly pull out. You still need money to pay wages, even if they are limited by a cap.

It will however limit the ability of clubs to spend beyond their means and incurring major losses (which some might call cheating).

The big issue with the EFL cap is that the Championship won’t have one, which thereby increases the gulf between the divisions and makes it harder for sides promoted out of League 1 to compete.
To be fair most lower league clubs would not expect to be able to compete in the Championship where you regularly have clubs with gates of 20,000 and 30,000. Just getting there and surviving a season or two would be a dream scenario.
Don’t agree on that. I would venture the majority of sides would like to establish themselves at that level. That’s the whole point of the league system. Saying clubs would delighted with a season in the Championship is a little patronising in my view.

And that’s before you get into the likes of Sunderland, Portsmouth, Ipswich, Bradford, Bolton, Hull and so on who, if ran properly, should easily be able to compete in the Championship. Yet they would be at a disadvantage.

A salary cap at L1 but a free-for-all in the Championship makes it all but impossible for stories like Bournemouth making the Premier League to happen.

I’d go further and describe the disparity as utterly absurd and grotesquely unfair.
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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by lo36789 » Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:10 pm

There is already a massive gulf between league one and championship salary structure wise not sure the cap will affect it that much.

Bournemouth wasn't exactly a complete fairy tale they were the biggest spending Championship club when they got promoted to the PL and breached Financial Fair Play in doing so. Funded from their Russian owner as I understand it.

There is a difference between wanting to and what is realistic. I'm not sure ghost is saying anything other than it is a very optimistic and unlikely ambition.

I suspect in League One the cap will only really affect the 'big' clubs anyway - Portsmouth, Sunderland etc. I doubt it would have impacted Wycombe - in fact it would have potentially made their job easier (or Rotherham, Luton and Burton in recent years)

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Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by Darlogramps » Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:17 pm

lo36789 wrote:There is already a massive gulf between league one and championship salary structure wise not sure the cap will affect it that much.
Is there? What’s your justification for that statement? I’d venture sides like Sunderland, Portsmouth etc more than match Championship levels of spending.

In terms of affecting abilities to compete - of course it will. A side promoted out of League 1, having been capped at £2.5m will have a big disadvantage against Championship clubs, who have had no restrictions. It’s silly to say otherwise.

All I’m saying is having a cap at one level, but a free-for-all in the other ludicrously stacks the decks in favour of sides in the Championship.

Saying “Yeah but that’s the way it is...” isn’t an answer. All that does is admit a salary cap in this manner won’t work. It shouldn’t be used to justify existing disparities - I think those should be eradicated.

All I’m arguing for is fairness across the board. Given the structure of the EFL, there’s no reason why two of its divisions get a cap, but the other doesn’t.
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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by Vokuhila » Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:30 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:17 pm
lo36789 wrote:There is already a massive gulf between league one and championship salary structure wise not sure the cap will affect it that much.
Is there? What’s your justification for that statement? I’d venture sides like Sunderland, Portsmouth etc more than match Championship levels of spending.

In terms of affecting abilities to compete - of course it will. A side promoted out of League 1, having been capped at £2.5m will have a big disadvantage against Championship clubs, who have had no restrictions. It’s silly to say otherwise.

All I’m saying is having a cap at one level, but a free-for-all in the other ludicrously stacks the decks in favour of sides in the Championship.

Saying “Yeah but that’s the way it is...” isn’t an answer. All that does is admit a salary cap in this manner won’t work. It shouldn’t be used to justify existing disparities - I think those should be eradicated.

All I’m arguing for is fairness across the board. Given the structure of the EFL, there’s no reason why two of its divisions get a cap, but the other doesn’t.
The average player wage in the Championship is something like 5-6 times higher than that in League One. And that's with clubs like Sunlun still massively bumping it up.

The casino that is the Championship probably already needed a salary cap anyway if only to save it from itself, but then presumably you'd ideally have one in the Premier League as well, which the likes of Citeh and Liverpool aren't going to vote for.

Just put Simon Jordan and Kieran Maguire in charge of the whole thing - they'd sort it all out.

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