Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

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lo36789
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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by lo36789 » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:36 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:17 pm
Is there? What’s your justification for that statement? I’d venture sides like Sunderland, Portsmouth etc more than match Championship levels of spending.
Conversations with a few people who have family operating between PL and League One.

But those conversations effectively reflected this https://www.eadt.co.uk/sport/huge-wage- ... -1-6630284

I suspect the northern club mentioned is Sunderland. I would also class Sunderland as a bit of an anomaly - last season they were a League One club still receiving PL parachute payments.
Last edited by lo36789 on Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:59 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by Darlogramps » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:12 pm

Trouble is, that article you cite uses averages which is practically useless when comparing divisions.

Top end League 1 clubs (I.E. those challenging for promotion) will pay vastly more than bottom end League 1 clubs. And it’ll be a similar story in the Championship.

So the averages argument you’re using is actually pretty meaningless.

Indeed, that article shows the highest earning players in League One can earn up to 15k a week, more than a lot of players in the Championship. That would actually back up my point about top end League 1 clubs being financially competitive with bottom to mid-ranking Championship clubs.

Also, for Sunderland you’re taking a leap that the club is them and have nothing but your own assumptions. It’s a point that can be discounted as it is assumption-based.

And unless you’re willing to name the people you allege to have spoken to, I’ve no idea whether you’re just making them up for the purposes of this discussion. Going off your past form (e.g. denying Northern League dominance in the Vase, denying the FIFA executive committee was corrupt and the whole Fylde Coast debacle), I’d say you would make things up to prove your point.

Yes, in general, the Championship will pay more in salaries than League One. But my assertion is that top end League 1 clubs would be unfairly restricted by a salary cap, if the Championship doesn’t have one.

That article essentially confirms this, as it demonstrates League 1 clubs most likely to earn promotion can currently compete, in salary terms, in the Championship. Yet a salary cap would inhibit this, if not also applied in the Championship.
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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by lo36789 » Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:48 am

The son of a current league one assistant manager, the brother of a recently retired PL player and the cousin of a current league one player (who has recently been linked with the SPL).

Alright the highlighted top earner in League One from a northern club isn't Sunderland...is that really a massive leap come on. A "massive" leap.

You have already cited them as probably having a big budget, heck they publicly bemoan their high salaries that they have maintained from their relegations on a TV show relative to other clubs, and the alternatives are Accrington Stanley, Blackpool, Bolton, Tranmere, Rotherham, Doncaster and Rochdale but you think suggesting that the top paid player in League One, from a "northern club", is probably Sunderland is a "massive leap".

Here is another link then...

https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/statu ... 79874?s=19
The smallest budget in the Championship from a team who survived relegation was Millwall at £16.9m.

Remember a cap has to be voted through by members, so members of EFL1 felt that £2.5m was a reasonable cap - there are some reported anomalies where when contracts expire they will need to be brought in line but that it is.

Where are you proposing to set he Championship cap? £50m would mean 4 clubs changing their ways. £15m would mean every single club in the division being above the cap...does that not already show an existing gap between the two regardless of a cap?

Let's also go back to what you disputed which was for most clubs being able to survive in the Championship is beyond them and just getting there for a season would be a dream. 75% of clubs voted to cap salaries at 2.5million (that is a comfortable majority, most is greater in amount so majority is most), 75% is the required vote in EFL for a change in rules. Thee data shows that the smallest budget needed to survive in Championship is £15m. You dispute the original statement, by that do you mean to suggest that creating capacity to increase salary expense more than 6 fold is "realistic" for most clubs.

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by jjljks » Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:26 pm

TBH even the " fit & proper owners" test doesnt appear to work, so how they intend to enforce the salary cap remains to be seen.
PS Just seen Adam Nowakowski has àgreed a salary of £1 to help out BPA. Respect :thumbup:

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by shildonlad » Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:57 pm

Charlton could be chucked out of the efl if they are not taken over within the next month or so. The owners have failed the fit and proper test, so if they failed how were they allowed to take over in the 1st place?
https://talksport.com/football/efl/7431 ... ners-test/
I may not live in the north east anymore but i still support the north east teams

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by jjljks » Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:25 pm

Exactly, Shildonlad. The only ones who will suffer are the Addicks fans. How on earth did the previous owner get to keep The Valley and the training ground when it was "taken over". Some crap lawyers involved!

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by shildonlad » Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:37 pm

jjljks wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:25 pm
Exactly, Shildonlad. The only ones who will suffer are the Addicks fans. How on earth did the previous owner get to keep The Valley and the training ground when it was "taken over". Some crap lawyers involved!
Something sure amis, seems another bury situation
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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by Darlogramps » Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:32 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:48 am
The son of a current league one assistant manager, the brother of a recently retired PL player and the cousin of a current league one player (who has recently been linked with the SPL).
I said names, not job positions. Anyone can type out a job position. Doesn't you've actually spoken to them, or that they even exist. Names please. Moreover, this is second-hand, anecdotal testimony from people whose specialisms aren't the field of finance. Why would the brother of a recently retired Premier League player have great insight into the salary expenditure of League One clubs?
lo36789 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:48 am
Alright the highlighted top earner in League One from a northern club isn't Sunderland...is that really a massive leap come on. A "massive" leap.

You have already cited them as probably having a big budget, heck they publicly bemoan their high salaries that they have maintained from their relegations on a TV show relative to other clubs, and the alternatives are Accrington Stanley, Blackpool, Bolton, Tranmere, Rotherham, Doncaster and Rochdale but you think suggesting that the top paid player in League One, from a "northern club", is probably Sunderland is a "massive leap".
I didn't say "massive leap", I merely said leap. Which is what it is because it was an assumption. And to assume will make an ass out of U and Me, as the saying goes.
I didn't use the word "massive". You're putting words in my mouth, which is poor form. Why are you mis-quoting? Is it to exaggerate your own point? Either way it's poor form and suggests you're not here to discuss in good faith.

lo36789 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:48 am
Here is another link then...

https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/statu ... 79874?s=19
The smallest budget in the Championship from a team who survived relegation was Millwall at £16.9m.
That figure refers to wage expenditure, not budget as you've stated. Happy to explain the difference between a salary and a budget, but it would be patronising and embarrassing to most on here.

lo36789 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:48 am
Where are you proposing to set he Championship cap? £50m would mean 4 clubs changing their ways. £15m would mean every single club in the division being above the cap...does that not already show an existing gap between the two regardless of a cap?
I don't have to propose a specific figure. There are people with better economic brains than myself who would do that. I'm not even arguing the Championship HAS to have one. Only that there needs to be consistency across the entire EFL. I'm struggling to see why you find that so objectionable.

lo36789 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:48 am
Let's also go back to what you disputed which was for most clubs being able to survive in the Championship is beyond them and just getting there for a season would be a dream. 75% of clubs voted to cap salaries at 2.5million (that is a comfortable majority, most is greater in amount so majority is most), 75% is the required vote in EFL for a change in rules. Thee data shows that the smallest budget needed to survive in Championship is £15m. You dispute the original statement, by that do you mean to suggest that creating capacity to increase salary expense more than 6 fold is "realistic" for most clubs.
This is a bit of a word soup (not untypical for yourself). For example: "that is a comfortable majority, most is greater in amount so majority is most". That makes no sense as a sentence.

And the above paragraph is also meaningless as you've again conflated budget and salary. It's hard to have a serious discussion with someone who gets basic facts wrong. You seem to think you're an intellectual, yet make really simple and basic errors.

Another error - you've taken the above list and applied it to all Championship seasons. That's not enough be drawing those type of conclusions. It's one season's figures, but it doesn't demonstrate a causal link, as you are implying.

I'll repeat my arguments in simple, easy-to-understand terms for you. It's patronising to suggest League One clubs can't compete in the Championship for more than a season or two (which is what Ghost said). There are many teams in the third tier who could easily compete at that level, but their ability to do so will be restricted because of the salary cap in previous seasons. Without a salary cap, Championship clubs will be able to pay more and more as wage inflation attracts the better players to that level. Meanwhile, the promotion-chasing League One clubs will be restricted as their salary budgets will be capped. This therefore makes it harder for clubs promoted out of League One to compete.

This isn't an argument for or against a salary cap, merely that if you have one at one level, it damages competitive integrity by not having one at the next, particularly in divisions run by the same organisation.

Now, because you've deliberately mis-quoted me and got basic information wrong, I'm struggling to see any further valuing in maintaining this discussion.
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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by jjljks » Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:09 am

According to the Echo, DMP RUFC have a salary budget of £350,000 & also need funds to maintain and repair the Arena.

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by shildonlad » Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:37 am

jjljks wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:09 am
According to the Echo, DMP RUFC have a salary budget of £350,000 & also need funds to maintain and repair the Arena.
Surely the arena needs a overhaul i.e steel work painted and that to get a safety certificate, would be costly i can imagine
I may not live in the north east anymore but i still support the north east teams

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:07 am

jjljks wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:09 am
According to the Echo, DMP RUFC have a salary budget of £350,000 & also need funds to maintain and repair the Arena.
How do they have a salary budget that high on gates in the hundreds?
#Arenaherewecome

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by lo36789 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:21 am

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by lo36789 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:26 am

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by LoidLucan » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:27 am

jjljks wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:09 am
According to the Echo, DMP RUFC have a salary budget of £350,000 & also need funds to maintain and repair the Arena.

Maybe someone will be waiting in the wings at tonight's emergency meeting of struggling Mowden Park....

"Members said speculation was mounting that an anonymous benefactor who had effectively taken over the club’s liabilities from the council could make a move to take control of the club at the meeting."

Not saying it's definitely him but hasn't RS loaned them a big pot of money before?

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by lo36789 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:41 am

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by lo36789 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:48 am

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by Old Git » Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:23 am

Slightly off topic but I see Macclesfield have been relegated from the EFL and Stevenage reprieved. Seems very late in the day but Mac seem to be a club that lurches from one crisis to another bit like we used to.

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by lo36789 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:35 am

Darlogramps wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:32 pm
I'm struggling to see any further valuing in maintaining this discussion.
Meh you know what I get to the same outcome.

I put forward why I think there is already significant financial disparity between the two divisions as part of the conversation about that.

You put your input in and I guess that is what a forum is and other readers will take or leave it based on that.

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Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by Darlogramps » Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:38 am

lo36789 wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:32 pm
I'm struggling to see any further valuing in maintaining this discussion.
Meh you know what I get to the same outcome.

I put forward why I think there is already significant financial disparity between the two divisions as part of the conversation about that.

You put your input in and I guess that is what a forum is and other readers will take or leave it based on that.
And your input is to be confused about the difference between salary and budget, and to deliberately mis-quote.

Some people’s input is more worthwhile than others.
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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by lo36789 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:57 am

Yep ok.

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by Darlogramps » Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:46 am

lo36789 wrote:Yep ok.
Cracking response that.
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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by lo36789 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:49 am

👍

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by Darlogramps » Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:52 am

lo36789 wrote:Image
Bless
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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:18 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:38 am
Some people’s input is more worthwhile than others.
Personally I like reading what lo posts.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by biccynana » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:39 pm

jjljks wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:26 pm
TBH even the " fit & proper owners" test doesnt appear to work, so how they intend to enforce the salary cap remains to be seen.
PS Just seen Adam Nowakowski has àgreed a salary of £1 to help out BPA. Respect :thumbup:
And gets himself a mention in the Guardian's Fiver column https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... on-of-hope :thumbup:

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by jjljks » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:52 am

FA need to get off their Fat Arses & take action to redistribute the wealth away from Premier League in order to save lower league & grass roots clubs. By halving the FA Cup prize money across the board, they damage the incomes of small clubs disproportionally. Prize money for FA final & semis amount to 25% of the total and is "only" £3,6M which is 1 mediocre midfielder transfer fee for a PL team but an entire year revenue stream for L1 or 2 team or a new ground for non-league teams. It could do more to help save a lot of clubs if they took some radical action nòw.
DJ must be applauded for his suggestion to allow smaller clubs to groundshare with bigger teams on a temporary basis in order to allow social distancing. The crisis we are in calls for radical measures & FA need to get their act together quickly.

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by joejaques » Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:39 am

jjljks wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:52 am
FA need to get off their Fat Arses & take action to redistribute the wealth away from Premier League in order to save lower league & grass roots clubs. By halving the FA Cup prize money across the board, they damage the incomes of small clubs disproportionally. Prize money for FA final & semis amount to 25% of the total and is "only" £3,6M which is 1 mediocre midfielder transfer fee for a PL team but an entire year revenue stream for L1 or 2 team or a new ground for non-league teams. It could do more to help save a lot of clubs if they took some radical action nòw.
DJ must be applauded for his suggestion to allow smaller clubs to groundshare with bigger teams on a temporary basis in order to allow social distancing. The crisis we are in calls for radical measures & FA need to get their act together quickly.
And the chances of that happening are.............? :roll:
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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by spen666 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:02 am

jjljks wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:52 am
FA need to get off their Fat Arses & take action to redistribute the wealth away from Premier League in order to save lower league & grass roots clubs. By halving the FA Cup prize money across the board, they damage the incomes of small clubs disproportionally. Prize money for FA final & semis amount to 25% of the total and is "only" £3,6M which is 1 mediocre midfielder transfer fee for a PL team but an entire year revenue stream for L1 or 2 team or a new ground for non-league teams. It could do more to help save a lot of clubs if they took some radical action nòw.
DJ must be applauded for his suggestion to allow smaller clubs to groundshare with bigger teams on a temporary basis in order to allow social distancing. The crisis we are in calls for radical measures & FA need to get their act together quickly.
The Premier League clubs have "earned" their incomes, so why should their be a communist style redistribution of wealth.

Would you be happy to have all your earnings shared with the local druggie or dosser?

Football fans have a strange blind eye to real life at times.

I do agree with you re prize money though. For the FA Cup I would change rules so that ( and I use figures purely for example) win 1 tie ( whether extra preliminary or 3rd round proper) and you earn say £10k
Win 2 ties £20k
Win 3 ties £40k
Win 4 ties £80k
Win 5 ties £160k
Win 6 ties £320k

All cumulative, so if you won 6 ties you would get ££620k. That would be Man City winning FA Cup or say Billingham Synthonia getting to 1st round of FA Cup.

That would hugely boost all the littler clubs, but treat everyone equally for same success in a competition

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by don'tbuythesun » Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:39 am

Not quite following your "logic". Arsenal received £5.4 million for the semi and final.

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Re: Who will follow Wigan Athletic into administration?

Post by jjljks » Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:52 am

joejaques wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:39 am
jjljks wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:52 am
FA need to get off their Fat Arses & take action to redistribute the wealth away from Premier League in order to save lower league & grass roots clubs. By halving the FA Cup prize money across the board, they damage the incomes of small clubs disproportionally. Prize money for FA final & semis amount to 25% of the total and is "only" £3,6M which is 1 mediocre midfielder transfer fee for a PL team but an entire year revenue stream for L1 or 2 team or a new ground for non-league teams. It could do more to help save a lot of clubs if they took some radical action nòw.
DJ must be applauded for his suggestion to allow smaller clubs to groundshare with bigger teams on a temporary basis in order to allow social distancing. The crisis we are in calls for radical measures & FA need to get their act together quickly.
And the chances of that happening are.............? :roll:
Practically nil Joejaques, but being a Darlo fan there is always a glimmer of hope even in the darkest 90 minutes!

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