Sports village

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bga
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Re: Sports village

Post by bga » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:47 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:42 pm
Well they don't get to use their first team pitch for first team games. We have priority use over their pitch and in fact their whole premise when we need it.

That is quite a bit compromise as the owner of an asset.

Well yes I understand that they have members who go their every single week home or away to use their bar didn't they have full time bar staff as well which probably gives some clue as to the demand / usage.

Let's make digs at their attendances. You completely miss the purpose of their club if you think their primary focus is the performance, progression and attendance of first team games. They are more about participation than spectating.

Well actually they lose money from football support as I understand it from a committee member. Their takings and actual profit on DFC matchdays is less than a normal non-playing match day. Obviously they are compensated in the form of the rent payments but that is again pretty reasonable
"Their takings and actual profit on DFC matchdays is less than a normal non-playing match day." Sorry you cannot be serious? The few hours our fans (and away fans) are in the bar, before during and after the game, must generate more profit than rugby games.

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Re: Sports village

Post by bga » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:53 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:45 pm
These figures are completely made up but just as a representation to illustrate 'how'.

When Darlington play at home the rugby club sell 100 pints. For £2.50 of which £2.00 is costs and of the profit that is split 50:50. Therefore they make £25 profit.

Before Darlington used to attend they used to sell 60 pints on a normal Saturday when the bars weren't exclusively for football fans. Making 50p profit on each one so in total £30 of profit.

I'm just basing on a committee member who basically said that effectively they lose out from a bar perspective on us being there...obviously they make money in the long run because per the example about as long as we pay more than £5 in rent there is a net benefit.
"These figures are completely made up but just as a representation to illustrate 'how'" Unless you know the exact deal with have with DRC for bar sales your argument does not stand up. The mark (profit) up on bottled beers/alcohol I always though for example was quite high.

bga
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Re: Sports village

Post by bga » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:54 pm

We must have a Licensee on here who can provide more reliable figures on profit calculations!

Darlo_Pete
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Re: Sports village

Post by Darlo_Pete » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:05 pm

There's certainly more than 100 pints sold on a Saturday when we are home.

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Sports village

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:15 pm

I understand that your example is just an example but on saying that I find it hard to believe.

It gets rammed inside the bar on a match day - there’s food and drink all over, then at about half five it will just revert.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Sports village

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:17 pm

Darlo_Pete wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:05 pm
There's certainly more than 100 pints sold on a Saturday when we are home.
You’ve missed Lo’s point, read it again.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

Emdubya
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Re: Sports village

Post by Emdubya » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:21 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:45 pm
These figures are completely made up but just as a representation to illustrate 'how'.

When Darlington play at home the rugby club sell 100 pints. For £2.50 of which £2.00 is costs and of the profit that is split 50:50. Therefore they make £25 profit.

Before Darlington used to attend they used to sell 60 pints on a normal Saturday when the bars weren't exclusively for football fans. Making 50p profit on each one so in total £30 of profit.

I'm just basing on a committee member who basically said that effectively they lose out from a bar perspective on us being there...obviously they make money in the long run because per the example about as long as we pay more than £5 in rent there is a net benefit.
What an absolute sack of bollocks from start to finish.You don’t seriously believe that any pub or club in the land only makes 50p on a pint.And 100 pints???.Have you actually been in the bar?.
I’m beginning to think this committee man you talk about is a FELLOW committee man the way you keep up this tedious defense of DRFC.No one is asking for the world here,just a bit of give and take which means give and take from both sides.
And before you jump to their defense again,they have taken a bloody lot more than they have given.
.

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Re: Sports village

Post by lo36789 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:31 pm

bga wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:53 pm
Unless you know the exact deal with have with DRC for bar sales your argument does not stand up. The mark (profit) up on bottled beers/alcohol I always though for example was quite high.
As I say this is just what I'm told by a member of RC committee - no I didn't ask him for the breakdown.

So the markup is actually irrelevant to what I said as it was just illustrative. Whatever percentage of the profits are given to DFC they have to sell that % more than they would have otherwise to make the same amount over the bar. Remember that we have the ground from 12:00 - 19:00 (I think) on matchdays but our actual sales will be predominantly from 14:15 to 14:45 and a spike between 17:00 and 17:30.
Last edited by lo36789 on Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

lo36789
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Re: Sports village

Post by lo36789 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:32 pm

Emdubya wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:21 pm
What an absolute sack of bollocks from start to finish.You don’t seriously believe that any pub or club in the land only makes 50p on a pint.And 100 pints???.Have you actually been in the bar?.
I mean I did say exactly that used round numbers so it would be easier to understand...clearly that didn't work.

I mean your response illustrates why it was a good move but clearly needed to be spelled out a lot more slowly and maybe in capital letters.

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Re: Sports village

Post by al_quaker » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:54 pm

From DJ in a netcafe in 2019:

https://darlingtonfc.co.uk/news/tonights-netcafe

'Bar sales – DFC retain 10% of bar sales revenue. Gross sales per game average circa £2k.'

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Re: Sports village

Post by lo36789 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:56 pm

It is plausible by the way it's the opportunity cost.

I know of a similar example near me where a club shares with another with another with a fan base c. 4 times the size. On this case landlord fully operates the bar and takes all proceeds they used to make more money over the bar when the tenants didn't play (the opportunity cost of each matchday is c. two parties and functions which would usually be a more constant stream of purchases).

The rent that is paid is equivalent to 3.5 parties so again there is a net benefit but only because of the rent paid not because of a surge in wet sales.

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Re: Sports village

Post by H1987 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:59 pm

I'd be surprised if there is a huge profit on our matchdays from the bar. Let's say 500 pints sold (possibly a real overestimation) times about 3.20 a pint (they're quite reasonable in there - I usually have Staro which is more but I doubt that's the average on the cheap lager, the ale is about 3.20 I think which I occasionally have). Roughly 1,600-1,700 ish... minus costs... the bar is really not a huge cash cow. They'll make more profit on the food, but not massive figures either (by the standards of a normal bar). Hospitality famously runs on tight margins. 50p may be an understatement but, given the prices in the clubhouse, I doubt they're making an awful lot. Less than a quid per pint I'd be reasonably confident. If anyone works in hospitality these days I'm sure they'll be better informed but I did a bit, way back before I settled into a different career, and it's damned difficult. As I said, more money in food for sure. A bacon butty at two quid will be making them more than a pint at three.

It's an aside but I do worry about small bars in this country in this crisis. I don't see how they're going to operate in this current climate with massively reduced footfall and capacity.

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Re: Sports village

Post by H1987 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:00 pm

al_quaker wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:54 pm
From DJ in a netcafe in 2019:

https://darlingtonfc.co.uk/news/tonights-netcafe

'Bar sales – DFC retain 10% of bar sales revenue. Gross sales per game average circa £2k.'
Good to know I wasn't too far off with 1,700. 2,000 gross ain't a lot at all once costs are removed. Is it more than they'd be making on a sleepy Saturday afternoon - sure... is it making them rich? No, it ain't.

lo36789
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Re: Sports village

Post by lo36789 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:01 pm

al_quaker wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:54 pm
From DJ in a netcafe in 2019:

https://darlingtonfc.co.uk/news/tonights-netcafe

'Bar sales – DFC retain 10% of bar sales revenue. Gross sales per game average circa £2k.'
This stacks up - 10% of revenue so it's a greater percentage of profit once cost of sales are taken into account.

If the Rugby Club would usually turn over more than £1,800 between 12 PM and 7PM on a non-matchday from a function (say two parties) that is the opportunity cost.

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Re: Sports village

Post by al_quaker » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:06 pm

I don't know profit margins so couldn't comment about the beer and whether they do make less on a DFC match than on a non DFC match day from the bar. Of course, there are people who do not go into the bar or buy food from DRFC because of the relationship (perceived or otherwise) between the two clubs. That means there's an active incentive for the rugby club to improve things, as they'd turn over more money, but I struggle to see evidence of attempts by them to woo football fans into the bar. Maybe the revenue we generate for them (circa 140k a year) is enough to keep them happy so they see no need to attempt to lure us into the bar.

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Re: Sports village

Post by Mister e » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:49 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:01 pm
al_quaker wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:54 pm
From DJ in a netcafe in 2019:

https://darlingtonfc.co.uk/news/tonights-netcafe

'Bar sales – DFC retain 10% of bar sales revenue. Gross sales per game average circa £2k.'
This stacks up - 10% of revenue so it's a greater percentage of profit once cost of sales are taken into account.

If the Rugby Club would usually turn over more than £1,800 between 12 PM and 7PM on a non-matchday from a function (say two parties) that is the opportunity cost.
I am sure the agreement is from 1pm to 6pm and I often drink in the bar after the game and more often than not the bar staff pull the shutters down at 5-30 hospitable eh and did they not also do the same thing to our guests and visitors from Nuneaton a few months ago meaning only half the visiting team got fed before returning to the Midlands after the game finished late because of a serious injury to a Nuneaton player.

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Re: Sports village

Post by lo36789 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:55 pm

Be awkward if it is 1PM as match officials are expected to arrive by 12:30 for a 3PM KO on NL.

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Re: Sports village

Post by lo36789 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:03 pm

Mister e wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:49 pm
I am sure the agreement is from 1pm to 6pm and I often drink in the bar after the game and more often than not the bar staff pull the shutters down at 5-30 hospitable eh and did they not also do the same thing to our guests and visitors from Nuneaton a few months ago meaning only half the visiting team got fed before returning to the Midlands after the game finished late because of a serious injury to a Nuneaton player.
Probably / Possibly but if you have staff who are paid to work until whatever time, if it is 6PM, what is the right outcome?

It might feel cold, not hospitable etc..but at the same time we are paying for a booking - there are direct costs incurred from going outside of that - costs we are not contracted to pay so we won't.

It would be great if it's a partnership, one dream, one vision but it isn't. It's a commercial arrangement and you don't get more than what you pay for. The rugby club won't give us more than we pay for for the same reason we won't pay more than we are due to pay.

What one thing has the football club ever done in the other direction to support the rugby club with the exception of paying the money per the contracted agreement. When have we gone above and beyond for nothing and acted purely in the interest of the rugby club and not our own.

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Sports village

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:18 pm

Lo. In my opinion the Rugby Club will not lose money on the bar when we have a match.

They don’t like us under normal circumstances - they’re not going to “take one for the team” 25 times a year. They would take all proceeds or put the prices up or refuse us access.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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lo36789
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Re: Sports village

Post by lo36789 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:24 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:18 pm
Lo. In my opinion the Rugby Club will not lose money on the bar when we have a match.

They don’t like us under normal circumstances - they’re not going to “take one for the team” 25 times a year. They would take all proceeds or put the prices up or refuse us access.
Well they can't because of the agreement that is in place? That is how contracts work.

So lose is just when adding in the opportunity cost and is specific to bar proceeds. They don't physically make a loss.

There is obviously a net financial benefit but that is why we pay for the use of then ground for a matchday.

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Re: Sports village

Post by lo36789 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:41 pm

Look I am not saying attitudes can't be better - but that is 100% not a one sided thing (see above). That I can't disagree with at all in fact there is a bizarre them and us stance that seemed to exist before the groundshare even began.

The thing I disagree with is the belief that we are being taken for a ride and their pricing / what they offer is somehow unfairly priced and that lack of going out of their way to be accomodating is indicative of resentment and simply a desire to take every penny they can't.

They are just abiding to an agreement. Service for payment.

We pay less than teams at North West Counties do over this way and that is purely for use of facility no advertising, no hospitality nothing on top. See Skelmersdale at Prescot Cables, City of Liverpool at Bootle and AFC Liverpool at Marine.

Higher up example in terms of publicised info Everton pay £5,000 a game to Southport just for pitch usage for their u23s and womens teams.

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Sports village

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:06 pm

I take onboard that there are two sides to every story. It’s good that someone is pointing things out - but still, I can’t buy this “Rugby Club losing money on bar takings” theory.

During our games the bar is rammed. I bet on the Saturdays when we are away it’s a lot quieter.

I have in fact called in a handful of times over the years. Even when there’s something on/zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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jjljks
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Re: Sports village

Post by jjljks » Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:49 am

Before we went to BM, the rugby club had a proper steward who was replaced by "volunteers" in an effort to reduce overheads. No doubt the bar was not profitable then.

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Re: Sports village

Post by quakersfan » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:20 am

Let’s hope both clubs are using this time to communicate properly and improve the relationship when things start again. As DJ has said before we make 10% on wet sales not sure on ground food but the best way to support the club is book Hospitality and park in the car park as that’s where we make most money, a full call park pays for the licence.

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Re: Sports village

Post by Old Git » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:27 am

What one thing has the football club ever done in the other direction to support the rugby club with the exception of paying the money per the contracted agreement. When have we gone above and beyond for nothing and acted purely in the interest of the rugby club and not our own.
[/quote]

I’ll give you two things that the Football Club has done.
1.Developed the stadium to include a covered standing terrace and 500 covered seats which can be used by both sets of supporters. I am reliably informed that there are rugby clubs much higher up the leagues that would envy those facilities.
2 Spent a vast some of money on improving the drainage and therefore providing a much better playing surface.

Yes I know that this has been done for our own benefit but you have to admit that we have greatly improved the place and they have a facility they could never have imagined a few years ago. The problem with BM is that the two parties involved want vastly different things. We are ambitious and want to progress they seem happy to be a small community club. It is a relationship with no long term future rather like a marriage where the people don’t share the same aspirations. I am convinced that if the Football Club is ever going to progress to the EFL it won’t be at this stadium. Which brings us back to the debate of what direction are we heading?

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Re: Sports village

Post by lo36789 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:30 am

These two things were entirely for our benefit. They didn't need them and it makes no difference to them that they are there. I thought the drainage was done by the rugby club to be honest.

I personally think needing to have a ground for EFL standard is something which won't be needed beyond the current lease anyway. That is a personal opinion - I appreciate there are contrary opinions here that isn't "good enough".

AFC Fylde with all their resources are being relegated from the NL and we think we are going to get promoted to the EFL some time soon.

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Re: Sports village

Post by al_quaker » Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:37 am

lo36789 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:41 pm

simply a desire to take every penny they can't.
Let's be honest that's what they're after. And that's fine, as this is a business agreement born out of them requiring more money. Of course, it leads to things like them initially charging football fans more than rugby fans for the same product, a decision which helped get things off on the wrong foot no doubt.

The frustration I have is that if they were more flexible, and more willing to make the place feel like a home for us, they would probably make more money. The bar is busy on match days, but with a better atmosphere around the place, a better (perceived) relationship with the rugby club, and, quite frankly, better service, I've no doubt even more people would use the bar and food, providing more money to them (and us).

Gone are the dreams of a cooperative community sports hub where both clubs benefit hugely, and in is a rather tense licencing agreement which has met the initial aims of the ground share but doesnt seem fertile ground for further development. Which is partly why I'm reticient to put more of my money into infastructure at BM - I fear it could be a case of chucking good money after bad.

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Re: Sports village

Post by al_quaker » Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:47 am

lo36789 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:30 am
These two things were entirely for our benefit. They didn't need them and it makes no difference to them that they are there. I thought the drainage was done by the rugby club to be honest.

I personally think needing to have a ground for EFL standard is something which won't be needed beyond the current lease anyway. That is a personal opinion - I appreciate there are contrary opinions here that isn't "good enough".

AFC Fylde with all their resources are being relegated from the NL and we think we are going to get promoted to the EFL some time soon.
Pretty sure it was us who did the pitch work. I remember a DFSCG fundraising pitch for it. The rugby club did the car park and (maybe?) the changing room work.

I suppose it's hard for us to do things that benefit only the rugby club other than the financial side of things - they have all the power and we only rent BM for a few hours on our matchdays. Any improvement to rugby club facilities obviously benefits us too.

I don't think we need an EFL ground for the next decade +. Our level for the forseeable is probably this with the occiasional foray into the National league. But the reason I want to see a plan for a football league ground before putting more money in is the huge restrictions on building at BM. Yes it's easy to see how we get a Cat A ground - put a terrace up at the open end. But how do we go from that to FL standard on the off chance we have a freak season? I struggle to see how we get to that without tearing down existing structures. I want to see forward planning in the next round of infrastructure development (if any) at BM, even if the chances are it's highly unlikely to be needed. I know the DFSCG have been working on plans, so it will be interesting to see what they've been working on. I'd love to see us have a football league standard ground ASAP, as that way I might actually be able to get a view I enjoy of football, but I realise that's not realistic for us. But the plans need to be in place.
Last edited by al_quaker on Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

lo36789
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Re: Sports village

Post by lo36789 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:53 am

al_quaker wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:37 am
Of course, it leads to things like them initially charging football fans more than rugby fans for the same product, a decision which helped get things off on the wrong foot no doubt.
To be fair that one was confirmed as our decision we set the price so that our 10% would be worth more.

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Re: Sports village

Post by al_quaker » Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:54 am

lo36789 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:53 am
al_quaker wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:37 am
Of course, it leads to things like them initially charging football fans more than rugby fans for the same product, a decision which helped get things off on the wrong foot no doubt.
To be fair that one was confirmed as our decision we set the price so that our 10% would be worth more.
Was it? Must have missed that, and stand corrected. Do you have a link for that?

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