Ground share

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RonJeremy
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Re: Ground share

Post by RonJeremy » Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:44 pm

We have some petulant fans. Do they want consulting when a player goes for a s***? They want to know the ins and outs of a fart and it’s EMBARRASSING. Just because you put a few quid in it doesn’t give you the right to know everything, if you want to get more involved then put yourself forward!

quakerste
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Re: Ground share

Post by quakerste » Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:46 pm

So theoretically the options are;
a) play at BM with no crowd - possibility of streaming the game
b) play at BM with 17% capacity 550 supporters or 33% 1056 supporters and streaming the game
c) play at the Arena 17% capacity 4590 or 33% 8910 supporters.

I have no doubt DJ will have consulted with both rugby club's regarding the options and will be well aware of cost implications.

As a Darlo fan I couldn't give a flying .. where we are playing I will support the team. All I want is to go and watch the lads playing again, I dread the thought of not seeing another game this year, however there is a great likelihood that this will be the case.

Regarding all those supporters who are throwing their dummies out saying they will not go and see us play at the Arena, jog on. Go and support Spennymoor or Hartlepool we don't need you.

Darlo_Rob
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Re: Ground share

Post by Darlo_Rob » Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:47 pm

H1987 as you’ve stated you won’t go to the Arena, I’m assuming you want us to play at BLackwell, I asked this question before, but how would you make it viable it the present situation? How would you make up the shortfall in revenue?

H1987
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Re: Ground share

Post by H1987 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:48 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:36 pm
LoidLucan wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:33 pm
I'd also like to know Darlington Rugby Club's view and the financial implications.
Tbf the rugby club have already said we only have a license to play. Which we just happen to not be taking them up on - so we will still pay for the license but we just won't play there.
H1987 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:01 pm
I think as a fan owned club we should be consulted and I think the finances should be laid bare (within reason, I understand we can’t and shouldn’t see minutiae, but an overview is reasonable)
I think they have been laid pretty bare. If we play at Blackwell Meadows we have to hand back money in refunds to 100 season ticket holders - how we choose them who knows - and we have zero gate receipts coming in.
It isn't really though. We haven't seen any concrete legislation which says what will and won't be allowed. So what is the club basing this on? Where have the national league confirmed what will and won't be allowed?

I do not like the phrasing expecting higher crowds either. I'm far from the only person who hates the arena, lets be honest, and a global pandemic combined with an incoming recession isn't exactly a recipe to make people go out and do something new.

I'll be honest, I'm really very disappointed. Not just at the decision but in how this has been done.

quakerste
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Re: Ground share

Post by quakerste » Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:53 pm

On the northern echo site now the club have made an official approach to the league to go back to the Arena.

H1987
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Re: Ground share

Post by H1987 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:59 pm

Darlo_Rob wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:47 pm
H1987 as you’ve stated you won’t go to the Arena, I’m assuming you want us to play at BLackwell, I asked this question before, but how would you make it viable it the present situation? How would you make up the shortfall in revenue?
I'd wait to see what the restrictions are, when they are decided upon, then make a decision based on concrete facts while communicating the process with the fans. I'd also weigh up all of the options, including other potential ground shares, if that was the necessity, and make a decision while communicating evidence that the fans can look at. All of that has been absent in this process. I also note that the word 'temporary' is not accompanied by any further details.

I appreciate there are difficulties but I simply don't trust the way this has been done. I feel like it's using an emergency to bypass fan consent.
Last edited by H1987 on Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

50 years
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Re: Ground share

Post by 50 years » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:00 pm

Appreciate individuals views on the arena, but from memory I am sure that DJ explained earlier that we have the funds to cover us till end of Dec then finances have gone, with no income by staying at BM (I assume even with 30% capacity it will be small amounts, and we lose money on normal crowds at BM without cup runs etc), I assume we will be facing administration again. That's not for me, I would go and watch them at a duck pond if that was the alternative.
We need to understand that we are not a rich club, with limited income other than fans.

I would love to know what the alternatives are that those who would not attend to keep us viable. There may be a good solution out there, I cant think of any to be honest.

Some of the comments against remind me of a fan who sits near me who is a season ticket holder but still pays every game to get in to support the team, seems we have fans at both ends of the spectrum.

Personally after finally all these years of being close to financial nightmare to being in a reasonable position for once I will go with the people at the top who got us into a fairly good position.

Darlo_Rob
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Re: Ground share

Post by Darlo_Rob » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:02 pm

So in essence you’ve got nothing. Serious question would you prefer the club to go under then go to the arena?

H1987
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Re: Ground share

Post by H1987 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:07 pm

Darlo_Rob wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:02 pm
So in essence you’ve got nothing. Serious question would you prefer the club to go under then go to the arena?
Remind me, which stadium was it that created a financial millstone that nearly killed the club three times over?

MB86DFC
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Re: Ground share

Post by MB86DFC » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:14 pm

H1987 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:07 pm
Darlo_Rob wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:02 pm
So in essence you’ve got nothing. Serious question would you prefer the club to go under then go to the arena?
Remind me, which stadium was it that created a financial millstone that nearly killed the club three times over?
This is a totally different scenario. It is a temporary move that will earn us more money than Blackwell IF it is needed. I’m sure if the government allow crowds as normal then we will be at BM, if they don’t and it’s financially beneficial to be at the arena then going there is the best decision for the club.

We’ve also got to consider infrastructure, the arena has more turnstiles, toilets, catering facilities etc, which will make the match day experience better than it would be at Blackwell with some form of social distancing in place.

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Ground share

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:20 pm

You simply can’t ostracise a large proportion of your fan base by only allowing about a third of them in. And you cant kick off a football season knowing that every game you play at home will lose you money, and added to that, some of the fan base will feel unsafe standing around at Blackwell Meadows.


I think it’s a good plan - and those that object need to get real and realise that we are living through exceptional circumstances.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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H1987
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Re: Ground share

Post by H1987 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:24 pm

MB86DFC wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:14 pm
H1987 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:07 pm
Darlo_Rob wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:02 pm
So in essence you’ve got nothing. Serious question would you prefer the club to go under then go to the arena?
Remind me, which stadium was it that created a financial millstone that nearly killed the club three times over?
This is a totally different scenario. It is a temporary move that will earn us more money than Blackwell IF it is needed. I’m sure if the government allow crowds as normal then we will be at BM, if they don’t and it’s financially beneficial to be at the arena then going there is the best decision for the club.

We’ve also got to consider infrastructure, the arena has more turnstiles, toilets, catering facilities etc, which will make the match day experience better than it would be at Blackwell with some form of social distancing in place.
You're right, it was different then. We were further up the pyramid, we weren't paying rent on another stadium at the same time and we were averaging much higher crowds than we are now.

It'll end in tears.

H1987
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Re: Ground share

Post by H1987 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:29 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:20 pm
You simply can’t ostracise a large proportion of your fan base by only allowing about a third of them in. And you cant kick off a football season knowing that every game you play at home will lose you money, and added to that, some of the fan base will feel unsafe standing around at Blackwell Meadows.


I think it’s a good plan - and those that object need to get real and realise that we are living through exceptional circumstances.
Exceptional circumstances won't last forever. If it is truly temporary, let us know what the details are.

I think this has been on the agenda for some time. The pandemic has created a get-out to bypass fan scrutiny.

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Ground share

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:30 pm

H1987, it’s a short term fix in exceptional circumstances - I think you’re overthinking it.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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BUSHEAD
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Re: Ground share

Post by BUSHEAD » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:32 pm

:D
H1987 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:07 pm
Darlo_Rob wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:02 pm
So in essence you’ve got nothing. Serious question would you prefer the club to go under then go to the arena?
Remind me, which stadium was it that created a financial millstone that nearly killed the club three times over?
Erm Feethams several times
#BeKind

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Re: Ground share

Post by quaker4life » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:40 pm

BUSHEAD wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:32 pm

Erm Feethams several times
The new East Stand aside, list them.

I'm intrigued.
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MB86DFC
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Re: Ground share

Post by MB86DFC » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:54 pm

H1987 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:24 pm
MB86DFC wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:14 pm
H1987 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:07 pm
Darlo_Rob wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:02 pm
So in essence you’ve got nothing. Serious question would you prefer the club to go under then go to the arena?
Remind me, which stadium was it that created a financial millstone that nearly killed the club three times over?
This is a totally different scenario. It is a temporary move that will earn us more money than Blackwell IF it is needed. I’m sure if the government allow crowds as normal then we will be at BM, if they don’t and it’s financially beneficial to be at the arena then going there is the best decision for the club.

We’ve also got to consider infrastructure, the arena has more turnstiles, toilets, catering facilities etc, which will make the match day experience better than it would be at Blackwell with some form of social distancing in place.
You're right, it was different then. We were further up the pyramid, we weren't paying rent on another stadium at the same time and we were averaging much higher crowds than we are now.

It'll end in tears.
The top and bottom of it is that if being at the arena equals more money taken than could be at Blackwell, with that difference being greater than the cost of being at the arena, then it makes sense.

It won’t make sense when restrictions are lifted and the money taken wouldn’t be more than that taken at Blackwell, in which case we go back.


Take your tinfoil hat off

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Ground share

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:03 pm

I agree, but there’s more than just money at stake here.

Let’s consider the sizeable amount of fans that wouldn’t be allowed in at B.M if the restrictions were placed at 650. Wouldn’t be much of a football club.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Vokuhila
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Re: Ground share

Post by Vokuhila » Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:16 pm

'Darlington require a stadium to increase crowds' - someone really needs to come up with some sort of catchy acronym for this, I reckon :think:

QUAKERMAN2
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Re: Ground share

Post by QUAKERMAN2 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:18 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:H1987, it’s a short term fix in exceptional circumstances - I think you’re overthinking it.
Absolute no brainer, DJ is spot on with this and it has to be the Arena whilst this pandemic restricts the capacity at BM to uneconomical proportions.

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darlo_baron
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Re: Ground share

Post by darlo_baron » Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:21 pm

H1987 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:29 pm
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:20 pm
You simply can’t ostracise a large proportion of your fan base by only allowing about a third of them in. And you cant kick off a football season knowing that every game you play at home will lose you money, and added to that, some of the fan base will feel unsafe standing around at Blackwell Meadows.


I think it’s a good plan - and those that object need to get real and realise that we are living through exceptional circumstances.
Exceptional circumstances won't last forever. If it is truly temporary, let us know what the details are.

I think this has been on the agenda for some time. The pandemic has created a get-out to bypass fan scrutiny.
I'm glad you think this club can survive on its season ticket revenue for the season, of which 100 wouldn't even be able to attend home games and would be well within their rights to request a refund.

The Arena was brutal, but given the current circumstances alternative options must be pursued. To say you'll only attend away games, which might not even be possible given Covid, is bizarre and harmful to the club.

If the Arena was to be considered as a future home again, I'm sure it would be put to the fan base. I'm not sure what you expect the club to do when we'd be one of the worst affected in the division, if a 17% capacity was imposed. Even 33% would be disastrous.
Last edited by darlo_baron on Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ground share

Post by Fatty eats roadkill » Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:36 pm

Don’t like the Arena, spent most of my time there sleeping off Friday nights sesh, but If it’s what’s needed to raise enough money to keep us going AND is temporary, then hey ho, it’s what it is. A necessary evil.
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en passant
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Re: Ground share

Post by en passant » Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:47 pm

I don't see many who do not understand the sense of going to the Arena if it makes the club more money than staying at BM, and would have the additional benefit of keeping faith with all fans who wish to see the team play, rather than excluding them at the risk of alienating the many pay on the gate members who are vital to the clubs finances.
Whilst some clearly have an aversion to the Arena, I have never quite understood what that might be in the current circumstances. Sure it is associated with one of the darker periods in the club's history, but it is just a building. It has no evil memory against us, and does not contain demons that would tie us in knots once again and drag us under. It is just a building that posesses some qualities that, under present conditions and constraints, provide for a better financial outcome than crossing our fingers and hoping for a covid miracle at BM. If DJ has done the maths and it looks viable to him, then why fight against it?

Alfie
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Re: Ground share

Post by Alfie » Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:02 pm

I wonder what continuing financial commitment we will still have to the BM rugby club. I don't know what the terms of our matchday lease are, but would there be some sort of compensation payment if we don't play home fixtures there?

Darlofan97
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Re: Ground share

Post by Darlofan97 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:09 pm

H1987 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:07 pm
Darlo_Rob wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:02 pm
So in essence you’ve got nothing. Serious question would you prefer the club to go under then go to the arena?
Remind me, which stadium was it that created a financial millstone that nearly killed the club three times over?
I *only* have experience of our administration in 2012, but the Arena was not the reason for nearly going bust.

Years of financial mis-management, poor recruitment & big budgets was.

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Re: Ground share

Post by Darlogramps » Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:13 pm

Alfie wrote:I wonder what continuing financial commitment we will still have to the BM rugby club. I don't know what the terms of our matchday lease are, but would there be some sort of compensation payment if we don't play home fixtures there?
The default will be we pay as normal for the next season (so we’d be paying for two grounds), unless we reach agreement with the rugby club.

Depending on the terms of our license, we could approach the rugby club and ask for a season-long break. However if they tell us to get lost, there’s be very little we could do. Or indeed we could arrange for some sort of compensation, but again you’re still paying compensation + however much it costs to rent the Arena.

That’s my understanding anyway - happy to be corrected if others know better.
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Re: Ground share

Post by Darlofan97 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:16 pm

H1987 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:28 pm
I’m not going to any games at the arena. It would be nice for the fans to be consulted on this before it comes out in this manner. We’re supposed to be a fan owned club. I have real trust issues regarding just how temporary this move would be.
The Board MUST have the autonomy to make these decisions. Especially when these decisions relate to the financial well-being & future of the club.

Not everything needs consulting on, especially when we have fan representation on the Board.

Right move by the football club to request this temporary move & absolutely right to not have to go through a consultation process prior. That would waste time & the outcomes of remaining at BM based on reduced capacity etc are very challenging.

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Ground share

Post by Darlogramps » Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:18 pm

Darlofan97 wrote:
H1987 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:07 pm
Darlo_Rob wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:02 pm
So in essence you’ve got nothing. Serious question would you prefer the club to go under then go to the arena?
Remind me, which stadium was it that created a financial millstone that nearly killed the club three times over?
I *only* have experience of our administration in 2012, but the Arena was not the reason for nearly going bust.

Years of financial mis-management, poor recruitment & big budgets was.
But was part of the overspending not to ensure we went up the leagues, thereby earning more money, making it easier to pay for the increased running costs of the Arena?

I’d have to do a bit of digging but I’m sure George Houghton said something to that effect. We needed to invest in order to make playing at the Arena more viable. I could be making that up but I’m sure he said something like that.

Either way, three administrations in nine years after moving to a vastly over-sized stadium with big running costs for a League Two club seems an awfully big coincidence.


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Darlofan97
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Re: Ground share

Post by Darlofan97 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:33 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:18 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
H1987 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:07 pm
Darlo_Rob wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:02 pm
So in essence you’ve got nothing. Serious question would you prefer the club to go under then go to the arena?
Remind me, which stadium was it that created a financial millstone that nearly killed the club three times over?
I *only* have experience of our administration in 2012, but the Arena was not the reason for nearly going bust.

Years of financial mis-management, poor recruitment & big budgets was.
But was part of the overspending not to ensure we went up the leagues, thereby earning more money, making it easier to pay for the increased running costs of the Arena?

I’d have to do a bit of digging but I’m sure George Houghton said something to that effect. We needed to invest in order to make playing at the Arena more viable. I could be making that up but I’m sure he said something like that.

Either way, three administrations in nine years after moving to a vastly over-sized stadium with big running costs for a League Two club seems an awfully big coincidence.


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You could be right regarding previous administrations, however I seem to remember around 2012 it came out somewhere that the running costs for the Arena were £270k per annum (part of this was also peppercorn rent). That is manageable on FL turnover and possibly could stretch to top-end National League getting gates of 2,000+.

I’m fairly certain in 10/11 we turned over close to £2m but ended up in administration not long after.

I think certainly for the 2012 administration the Arena was a bit of a red-herring & more down to the failures of Singh & poor recruitment on the pitch.

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Ground share

Post by Darlogramps » Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:51 pm

Yeah I’m pretty sure that’s right for 2012, although the Arena was a factor.

Singh spent a lot, realised he was losing money with little prospect of getting it back (ownership of the stadium and land had gone to Scott and Sizer, meaning Singh couldn’t get a cut of any development) and it was exacerbated by the fact we weren’t performing well. So Singh pulled the plug.

But still, I know we weren’t always a picture of financial stability at Feethams, but we had three administrations within less than a decade at the Arena.
Last edited by Darlogramps on Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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