Ground share

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lo36789
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Re: Ground share

Post by lo36789 » Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:32 pm

shildonlad wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:15 pm
From what i gather the rules out today on crowd restrictions are just for step 3 and below which would be ok for the bulk of clubs at that level but not for step 2 and above, lets hope common sense prevails for above step 3
They are, but it isn't clear if that cut off is because there will be different rules applied at higher steps or simply because of the need to release this guidance. The government confirmed last night that spectators have always been allowed to attend games at step 3 and below under their rules - it was just the FA who were saying that they couldn't or hadn't clarified it.

The government simply said that fans weren't allowed at "elite" football. I suppose we have York to thank for being categorised as elite as we needed to become elite status in order for the play-offs to be held.

As I put in another thread the edge cases where it looks weird is where a teams ground meets the grading for higher steps of the pyramid. Most prominent example is AFC Bury who are playing at Radcliffe (step 3). AFC Bury will have a max capacity of 300 on Saturday and potentially 3 days later Radcliffe will be allowed to have 600 in the same venue.

I guess just because step 2 isn't covered that doesn't say that it won't be the same principle applied - equally the elite cut off could work in our favour as it would give the FA capacity to determine different requirements above the line to below it. I suppose the trigger will be when the government allow elite football to have fans (the awkward thing for us is that we are in the same bucket as the Premier League and Championship).

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Re: Ground share

Post by m62exile » Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:07 pm

quaker4life wrote:
MB86DFC wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:36 pm

So by your logic all grounds should exactly equal in size post lock down? Just so not to be seen as unfair? This is total stupidity by the league and may be the end of some clubs.
No.

Personally I'd have curtailed the league until such a time it was safe for grounds to reopen at 100% capacity, however allowing teams to play at bigger venues to bypass capacity restrictions to me is nonsensical and contradictory they may as well not be there to begin with and to reiterate once again there can't be one rule for one club and another for the rest.

You have two options essentially

1. Resume the league with restricted capacities
2. Suspend the league indefinitely until such a time spectators are allowed to return unrestricted

In both scenarios clubs will suffer financially it's really a case of choosing your poison.
This makes no sense. Any club could arrange to play at a suitably sized venue for the period of the restrictions if they feel it necessary. The suggestion isn’t just for Darlington. For many (probably most) clubs at our level this won’t be necessary.

Using a %age of the minimum capacity required for grading is nonsensical with such an enormous variety of stadium sizes at non league level.


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Re: Ground share

Post by quaker4life » Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:25 pm

m62exile wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:07 pm

This makes no sense. Any club could arrange to play at a suitably sized venue for the period of the restrictions if they feel it necessary. The suggestion isn’t just for Darlington. For many (probably most) clubs at our level this won’t be necessary.

Using a %age of the minimum capacity required for grading is nonsensical with such an enormous variety of stadium sizes at non league level.


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So it makes sense impose restrictions and then allow clubs to get around said restrictions by moving to bigger venues?
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Re: Ground share

Post by lo36789 » Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:51 pm

The restrictions should be based on available capacity. The purpose of restrictions is after all safety not application of a handicap.

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Re: Ground share

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:59 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:51 pm
The restrictions should be based on available capacity. The purpose of restrictions is after all safety not application of a handicap.
Agreed. Anything else is just daft.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: Ground share

Post by murtonquakerfan » Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:58 pm


quaker4life wrote:
spen666 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:26 pm

If I read your post correctly, even if a club in NLN/NLS were to play home games at say Wembley Stadium they are still limited to 450 spectators

That seems bizarre and illogical.

It also means there is unlikely to be a financial case to play at the Arena until those restrictions are limited
Indeed, regardless of the overall capacity of the stadium the restrictions would be based on the minimum capacity for ground grading at the respective level.

As Unfortunate as it is that many supporters across the country will lose out, I think it is fair as it levels the playing field for all clubs - this is what I meant when I said there couldn't be one standard for Darlington and another for everyone else.
It's not an idea thats meant to look like one rule for us and something else for the rest of the League.

Surely if we got the go-ahead to play at the Arena, then other clubs at our level would be able to take advantage of being able to play at bigger Stadiums to get them through, though Im sure most clubs would be able to adequately Social Distance in there own grounds giving there crowds I.e. Gateshead

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Re: Ground share

Post by m62exile » Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:03 pm

lo36789 wrote:The restrictions should be based on available capacity. The purpose of restrictions is after all safety not application of a handicap.
Exactly right.


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MB86DFC
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Re: Ground share

Post by MB86DFC » Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:37 pm

quaker4life wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:25 pm
m62exile wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:07 pm

This makes no sense. Any club could arrange to play at a suitably sized venue for the period of the restrictions if they feel it necessary. The suggestion isn’t just for Darlington. For many (probably most) clubs at our level this won’t be necessary.

Using a %age of the minimum capacity required for grading is nonsensical with such an enormous variety of stadium sizes at non league level.


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So it makes sense impose restrictions and then allow clubs to get around said restrictions by moving to bigger venues?
Are you intentionally being a moron?

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Re: Ground share

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:01 pm

quaker4life wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:25 pm

So it makes sense impose restrictions and then allow clubs to get around said restrictions by moving to bigger venues?
God, you're tedious AF.

Moving to a bigger stadium is not about "getting around restrictions". It's about maximising income whilst remaining within the restrictions imposed, and remaining safe.

17% of 25,000 capacity gives you a better financial outcome than 17% of 3,300 (using 17% as an example)
#Arenaherewecome

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Re: Ground share

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:07 pm

Ghost_Of_1883 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:01 pm
quaker4life wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:25 pm

So it makes sense impose restrictions and then allow clubs to get around said restrictions by moving to bigger venues?
God, you're tedious AF.

Moving to a bigger stadium is not about "getting around restrictions". It's about maximising income whilst remaining within the restrictions imposed, and remaining safe.

17% of 25,000 capacity gives you a better financial outcome than 17% of 3,300 (using 17% as an example)
A further point to make is that in this division, we will be one of the worst affected, as the capacity at BM wouldn't even be enough for ST holders, never mind anyone to pay on the gate. Capacity of 500 odd, average gates near 1,500?

It's not as bad (but still bad) for other clubs, but most have bigger grounds, and/or smaller crowds than us.
#Arenaherewecome

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Re: Ground share

Post by splinter » Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:36 pm

any news on this yet ?

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Re: Ground share

Post by quaker4life » Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:15 pm

splinter wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:36 pm
any news on this yet ?
Rumour has it, it has been approved by the National League.

Of course it is just that though, a rumour.
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Re: Ground share

Post by quakersfan » Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:01 pm

I’ve seen a couple of twitter posts, has NL deal been done to get DFC back at the Arena?

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Re: Ground share

Post by QUAKERMAN2 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:53 pm

quakersfan wrote:I’ve seen a couple of twitter posts, has NL deal been done to get DFC back at the Arena?
Great news if true....fingers crossed.

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Re: Ground share

Post by lo36789 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:41 pm

QUAKERMAN2 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:53 pm
Great news if true....fingers crossed.
Surely we need to wait on the other important news first ie whether max capacity will be based on certified ground capacity or the minimum capacity of the division.

If we can only have 900 in irrespective of where we play it is a bit pointless.

It does put us in an awkward position mind as we have asked for the move on safety grounds over the potential for further capacity...

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Re: Ground share

Post by m62exile » Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:00 pm

lo36789 wrote:
QUAKERMAN2 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:53 pm
Great news if true....fingers crossed.
Surely we need to wait on the other important news first ie whether max capacity will be based on certified ground capacity or the minimum capacity of the division.

If we can only have 900 in irrespective of where we play it is a bit pointless.

It does put us in an awkward position mind as we have asked for the move on safety grounds over the potential for further capacity...
Well I guess we’ve been classed as elite sport, rightly or wrongly - so I’d hope we are in the same boat as the EFL & PL with regards to how many fans are allowed to attend rather than lumped in with the step 3+ rules.


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Re: Ground share

Post by lo36789 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:02 am

But I thought it was posted the other day the league have asked for the same dispensation as the rest of football.

Effectively our league has asked for us to all be capped at 30% of 3000 regardless if capacity - it may be they were asking for the sake of friendlies mind.

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Re: Ground share

Post by m62exile » Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:03 am

lo36789 wrote:But I thought it was posted the other day the league have asked for the same dispensation as the rest of football.

Effectively our league has asked for us to all be capped at 30% of 3000 regardless if capacity - it may be they were asking for the sake of friendlies mind.
I’d assumed that was for friendlies the time being, until the elite stuff was sorted out. Could be wrong though.


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Re: Ground share

Post by spen666 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:29 am

lo36789 wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:02 am
But I thought it was posted the other day the league have asked for the same dispensation as the rest of football.

Effectively our league has asked for us to all be capped at 30% of 3000 regardless if capacity - it may be they were asking for the sake of friendlies mind.
I thought the league were asking for this as its better than what clubs have at the minute, which is 0 fans allowed in. surely better to have 600 fans than no fans. Once fans are in grounds, then the pressure will be increased on the FA to allow more fans in, assuming there are no problems.

Whilst we all want all fans allowed in, some fans being allowed in must be better than where we are now with no fans allowed in

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Re: Ground share

Post by al_quaker » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:45 am

m62exile wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:03 am
lo36789 wrote:But I thought it was posted the other day the league have asked for the same dispensation as the rest of football.

Effectively our league has asked for us to all be capped at 30% of 3000 regardless if capacity - it may be they were asking for the sake of friendlies mind.
I’d assumed that was for friendlies the time being, until the elite stuff was sorted out. Could be wrong though.


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I assumed this too.

The government has already laid out guidance for the return of spectators to elite sport (https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... afe-rtcsrs), which includes stadia specific reduced capacities. I guess it's under this guidance that we calculated the capacity of BM. There are trial 'elite' events underway currently and presumably if they go OK then elite sport (which seems to include the National League) will get the go ahead from the 1st October to return supporters under these guidelines.

I presume the National League have asked for changes to allow a small % of fans in for friendlies until October. Which makes sense for most clubs, although possibly not for us in terms of home friendlies if there are extra rental costs.

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Re: Ground share

Post by spen666 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:06 am

al_quaker wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:45 am
m62exile wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:03 am
lo36789 wrote:But I thought it was posted the other day the league have asked for the same dispensation as the rest of football.

Effectively our league has asked for us to all be capped at 30% of 3000 regardless if capacity - it may be they were asking for the sake of friendlies mind.
I’d assumed that was for friendlies the time being, until the elite stuff was sorted out. Could be wrong though.


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I assumed this too.

The government has already laid out guidance for the return of spectators to elite sport (https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... afe-rtcsrs), which includes stadia specific reduced capacities. I guess it's under this guidance that we calculated the capacity of BM. There are trial 'elite' events underway currently and presumably if they go OK then elite sport (which seems to include the National League) will get the go ahead from the 1st October to return supporters under these guidelines.

I presume the National League have asked for changes to allow a small % of fans in for friendlies until October. Which makes sense for most clubs, although possibly not for us in terms of home friendlies if there are extra rental costs.

Very helpful that link. One bit that stood out to me in reading that was this line
The revised capacity assessment will be based on the competition venue’s existing safe capacity,...
Seems the guidance is saying safe capacity is to be based on each individual venue, not the minimum capacity for that level of football. So if the FA do with NL what they have done to levels below, it will be the FA to blame, not the Government.

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Re: Ground share

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:43 am

spen666 wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:06 am
Very helpful that link. One bit that stood out to me in reading that was this line
The revised capacity assessment will be based on the competition venue’s existing safe capacity,...
Seems the guidance is saying safe capacity is to be based on each individual venue, not the minimum capacity for that level of football. So if the FA do with NL what they have done to levels below, it will be the FA to blame, not the Government.

Good spot.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

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Re: Ground share

Post by bga » Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:35 pm

Still no decision regards our request to play at the Arena? How long do the League need to make a decision. Clearly the venue cannot be the problem as it must be better (Safer) than most grounds in NLN.

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Re: Ground share

Post by lo36789 » Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:58 am

bga wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:35 pm
Still no decision regards our request to play at the Arena? How long do the League need to make a decision. Clearly the venue cannot be the problem as it must be better (Safer) than most grounds in NLN.
There is no rush until the outcome of the pilots is received and we actually start to plan for ticketing etc. for the first home game.

Until it is confirmed by the FA that elite football may admit a safe proportion of fans based on certified capacity (in line with government guidance) then we don't know if moving to the arena is or isn't worth it - and we don't know what our "safe" capacity is either.

Wouldn't w decision have to be governed correctly also. "The league" isn't one person who just replies to emails with a yes or no, it is a membership who have voting rights and all sign up to and define competition rules. For what we know we might have an indicative response but it just needs to be ratified at the monthly governance meeting.

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Re: Ground share

Post by bga » Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:51 am

lo36789 wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:58 am
bga wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:35 pm
Still no decision regards our request to play at the Arena? How long do the League need to make a decision. Clearly the venue cannot be the problem as it must be better (Safer) than most grounds in NLN.
There is no rush until the outcome of the pilots is received and we actually start to plan for ticketing etc. for the first home game.

Until it is confirmed by the FA that elite football may admit a safe proportion of fans based on certified capacity (in line with government guidance) then we don't know if moving to the arena is or isn't worth it - and we don't know what our "safe" capacity is either.

Wouldn't w decision have to be governed correctly also. "The league" isn't one person who just replies to emails with a yes or no, it is a membership who have voting rights and all sign up to and define competition rules. For what we know we might have an indicative response but it just needs to be ratified at the monthly governance meeting.
I understand some of what you say. However it is clear we made our application to play at the Arena because of the current crisis which may mean we could admit more fans safely and ultimately make more money. Our request should be considered on the basis of the Venue irrespective of any capacity limitations the league subsequently impose. Our Board can then decide whether the move us viable.

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Re: Ground share

Post by jjljks » Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:20 am

Perhaps the NL will make some decision & announcement on 8 Sep to coincide with the new fixture lists?

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Re: Ground share

Post by Fat josh » Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:28 am

bga wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:51 am
lo36789 wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:58 am
bga wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:35 pm
Still no decision regards our request to play at the Arena? How long do the League need to make a decision. Clearly the venue cannot be the problem as it must be better (Safer) than most grounds in NLN.
There is no rush until the outcome of the pilots is received and we actually start to plan for ticketing etc. for the first home game.

Until it is confirmed by the FA that elite football may admit a safe proportion of fans based on certified capacity (in line with government guidance) then we don't know if moving to the arena is or isn't worth it - and we don't know what our "safe" capacity is either.

Wouldn't w decision have to be governed correctly also. "The league" isn't one person who just replies to emails with a yes or no, it is a membership who have voting rights and all sign up to and define competition rules. For what we know we might have an indicative response but it just needs to be ratified at the monthly governance meeting.
I understand some of what you say. However it is clear we made our application to play at the Arena because of the current crisis which may mean we could admit more fans safely and ultimately make more money. Our request should be considered on the basis of the Venue irrespective of any capacity limitations the league subsequently impose. Our Board can then decide whether the move us viable.
And that proves my point
Arena worshippers don't care if we can get more fans in the Arena than Blackwell meadows they just want to go back.This has been planned by shady characters for years.
The Arena will not pass a safety inspection as its a rusting shithole I have already informed the relevant authorities about this and am canvassing support from other teams as we should not be allowed to swap grounds just for the hell of it.
I think whoever provided the grants for the stands at Blackwell should be informed as well as we are taking the piss with getting them in the first place with no intentions of staying.
Anyone who supports this shambolic idea is frankly a disgrace.
I call for a no confidence vote in the clown in charge.
I'm out fuck this club its dead.

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Re: Ground share

Post by spen666 » Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:37 am

jjljks wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:20 am
Perhaps the NL will make some decision & announcement on 8 Sep to coincide with the new fixture lists?
Until the FA/ Government clarify the rules around crowd limits at the Elite Football, the issue of a move to the Arena is a moot point.

so far clubs who are allowed fans into grounds ( Step 3 and below) are only allowed 30% of the minimum capacity required for that level, irrespective of the ground capacity. So it doesn't matter the size of the ground you play in.

Ironically, it would mean Manchester United could only have 1200 fans in the 75,000 capacity Old Trafford as minimum attendance to get into Football League ( and the Premier League) is 4000. So 30% of 4000 is 1200! Stupid isn't it. Manchester United / Spurs etc being limited to the same crowd level as say Harrogate or Barrow.

If the rule is changed to a % of the actual ground capacity, then a move to the Arena makes sense, financially and in all the circumstances I have yet to hear a good reason not to allow it

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Re: Ground share

Post by biccynana » Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:46 am

Fat josh wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:28 am
bga wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:51 am
lo36789 wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:58 am
bga wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:35 pm
Still no decision regards our request to play at the Arena? How long do the League need to make a decision. Clearly the venue cannot be the problem as it must be better (Safer) than most grounds in NLN.
There is no rush until the outcome of the pilots is received and we actually start to plan for ticketing etc. for the first home game.

Until it is confirmed by the FA that elite football may admit a safe proportion of fans based on certified capacity (in line with government guidance) then we don't know if moving to the arena is or isn't worth it - and we don't know what our "safe" capacity is either.

Wouldn't w decision have to be governed correctly also. "The league" isn't one person who just replies to emails with a yes or no, it is a membership who have voting rights and all sign up to and define competition rules. For what we know we might have an indicative response but it just needs to be ratified at the monthly governance meeting.
I understand some of what you say. However it is clear we made our application to play at the Arena because of the current crisis which may mean we could admit more fans safely and ultimately make more money. Our request should be considered on the basis of the Venue irrespective of any capacity limitations the league subsequently impose. Our Board can then decide whether the move us viable.
And that proves my point
Arena worshippers don't care if we can get more fans in the Arena than Blackwell meadows they just want to go back.This has been planned by shady characters for years.
The Arena will not pass a safety inspection as its a rusting shithole I have already informed the relevant authorities about this and am canvassing support from other teams as we should not be allowed to swap grounds just for the hell of it.
I think whoever provided the grants for the stands at Blackwell should be informed as well as we are taking the piss with getting them in the first place with no intentions of staying.
Anyone who supports this shambolic idea is frankly a disgrace.
I call for a no confidence vote in the clown in charge.
I'm out fuck this club its dead.
:wave:
Don't let the door hit you on the way out

bga
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Re: Ground share

Post by bga » Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:10 am

biccynana wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:46 am
Fat josh wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:28 am
bga wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:51 am
lo36789 wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:58 am
bga wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:35 pm
Still no decision regards our request to play at the Arena? How long do the League need to make a decision. Clearly the venue cannot be the problem as it must be better (Safer) than most grounds in NLN.
There is no rush until the outcome of the pilots is received and we actually start to plan for ticketing etc. for the first home game.

Until it is confirmed by the FA that elite football may admit a safe proportion of fans based on certified capacity (in line with government guidance) then we don't know if moving to the arena is or isn't worth it - and we don't know what our "safe" capacity is either.

Wouldn't w decision have to be governed correctly also. "The league" isn't one person who just replies to emails with a yes or no, it is a membership who have voting rights and all sign up to and define competition rules. For what we know we might have an indicative response but it just needs to be ratified at the monthly governance meeting.
I understand some of what you say. However it is clear we made our application to play at the Arena because of the current crisis which may mean we could admit more fans safely and ultimately make more money. Our request should be considered on the basis of the Venue irrespective of any capacity limitations the league subsequently impose. Our Board can then decide whether the move us viable.
And that proves my point
Arena worshippers don't care if we can get more fans in the Arena than Blackwell meadows they just want to go back.This has been planned by shady characters for years.
The Arena will not pass a safety inspection as its a rusting shithole I have already informed the relevant authorities about this and am canvassing support from other teams as we should not be allowed to swap grounds just for the hell of it.
I think whoever provided the grants for the stands at Blackwell should be informed as well as we are taking the piss with getting them in the first place with no intentions of staying.
Anyone who supports this shambolic idea is frankly a disgrace.
I call for a no confidence vote in the clown in charge.
I'm out fuck this club its dead.
:wave:
Don't let the door hit you on the way out
GOODBYE FAT JOSH YOU WILL NOT BE MISSED AT ALL. YOU ARE A DISGRACE.

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