Diego Maradona

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Old Git
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Diego Maradona

Post by Old Git » Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:54 pm

Am I the only one who finds all the hero worship of this little prick a bit sickening. He was a cheating drug addled little s*** in my opinion. Sure he was a great footballer but not a good human being.

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Re: Diego Maradona

Post by Darlo_Pete » Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:36 am

No I'm with you OG, never liked the man & I also find the adulation he has been given is completely over the top.

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Re: Diego Maradona

Post by Vodka_Vic » Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:59 am

I think though that to be fair the comments have all said "Flawed genius". The praise has been for him as a footballer but not necessarily as a person.

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Diego Maradona

Post by Darlogramps » Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:15 am

The trouble is, I think calling him a “cheating drug-addled little s***” is unfair because he was way more complex than that.

For instance, in 1984 he asked Napoli and FIFA to stage a charity match for a sick child. They refused so he did it anyway, raising a substantial amount of money. Many of his friends have described as being incredibly generous and caring.

He is also unquestionably one of the greatest to ever play the game. His ability and achievements were extraordinary. He was more than just a great footballer.

But it’s correct too to say absolutely he could be horrendous as a person too. For about 30 years, he denied even having a son to a woman in Napoli, even though he was the father.

And then there was drugs and the lifestyle, although again, we won’t necessarily know to what extent his addictions were brought on by struggling to cope with the circus that existed around him. And he certainly had plenty of hangers-on who were only interested in exploiting him for money.

So the truth around him is way more complex. You can’t boil it down to a few words because there were so many facets to him. Because of that, people will remember him how they want to, be that for good or bad.
Last edited by Darlogramps on Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Diego Maradona

Post by Spyman » Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:25 am

People who bang on about his cheating, and the handball against England, would do well to watch that game back and remind themselves if the thuggery he was subjected to by the England team.

Incredible player who was brilliant to watch.

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Re: Diego Maradona

Post by Old Git » Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:13 am

Spyman wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:25 am
People who bang on about his cheating, and the handball against England, would do well to watch that game back and remind themselves if the thuggery he was subjected to by the England team.

Incredible player who was brilliant to watch.

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Sorry “the thuggery he was subjected to by the England team “. Don’t remember that are you trying to impose 2020 standards on to the 1980s ? Of course we had our share of tough players but don’t think Bobby Robson ever sent out a team of thugs.
You might as well argue that England clogged their way to the 1966 World Cup because Jackie Charlton and Nobby Stiles could dish it out. By the way if you want to talk about thuggery on a football pitch take a look back to the Quarter Final in 1966 between England and Argentina. Even the normally reserved Sir Alf Ramsey referred to the Argentinians as animals and refused to allow our players to swap shirts with them at the end of the match.

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Diego Maradona

Post by Darlogramps » Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:31 am

Old Git wrote:
Spyman wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:25 am
People who bang on about his cheating, and the handball against England, would do well to watch that game back and remind themselves if the thuggery he was subjected to by the England team.

Incredible player who was brilliant to watch.

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Sorry “the thuggery he was subjected to by the England team “. Don’t remember that are you trying to impose 2020 standards on to the 1980s ? Of course we had our share of tough players but don’t think Bobby Robson ever sent out a team of thugs.
You might as well argue that England clogged their way to the 1966 World Cup because Jackie Charlton and Nobby Stiles could dish it out. By the way if you want to talk about thuggery on a football pitch take a look back to the Quarter Final in 1966 between England and Argentina. Even the normally reserved Sir Alf Ramsey referred to the Argentinians as animals and refused to allow our players to swap shirts with them at the end of the match.
In fairness Spyman is generally correct. I think “thuggery” is a bit strong but if you watch the game, England do target Maradona by fouling him (just about every side did).

Terry Fenwick smashed him with an elbow off-the-ball too, which the referee missed. The idea that England were the perfect gentlemen done over by Maradona isn’t quite true. We were happy to dish it out.

Don’t understand the relevancy of 1966. Feels like whataboutery to me.
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Re: Diego Maradona

Post by Old Git » Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:37 am

Just that it shows the Argentinians were masters of thuggery and cheating. Part of their culture and Maradona was another example of that. Sorry don’t understand whataboutary ?

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Re: Diego Maradona

Post by Darlogramps » Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:55 am

Old Git wrote:Just that it shows the Argentinians were masters of thuggery and cheating. Part of their culture and Maradona was another example of that. Sorry don’t understand whataboutary ?
Part of their culture? Just straying into silly stereotypical territory now. Seems a bit over the top to me based on one quarter final. It was clear their gameplan was to disrupt England, and it nearly worked. One match isn’t indicative of an entire culture.

This is also a nation that’s produced two of the greatest players who’ve ever lived in Maradona and Messi, plus many, many fabulously talented players below them.

And like I say, England and English players were more than happy to play rough and ready. Chopper Harris, Norman Hunter etc. Terry Fenwick smacking Maradona one with an elbow is evidence of that.
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Re: Diego Maradona

Post by lo36789 » Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:50 am

I don't think he should be held up as an idol or role model on how to live your life. He should be respected for his footballing talent - his talent wouldn't look out of place in the modern game and when you watch old clips that is rare.

I find the whole "cheat" accusation to be unfair. Two sides to this committing fouls in football is not cheating. Is the line between cheating and not cheating whether the offence is spotted by a referee?

The other side with regard drugs. I dont think his drug taking was performance enhancing - if anything you have to wonder how good he would have been sober.

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Re: Diego Maradona

Post by don'tbuythesun » Sun Nov 29, 2020 12:08 pm

I agree the adulation is over the top but if you look at him in purely football terms surely he's up there in most people's top five best ever players? Sadly with the hero worship there's often a downside and George Best certainly falls into that bracket for me. It's unfair to label more recent teams with the rough house Estudiantes and international team of the late 60's? As for the hand of God thing-get over it. I'm sure there's many times when people have cheated and to carry this on for so long summarising him over that one incident seems churlish.

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Re: Diego Maradona

Post by Old Git » Sun Nov 29, 2020 12:09 pm

In my mind his Hand of God goal was as clear an act of cheating as you will ever see. Perhaps made worse by his pathetic attempt to justify it as some sort of devine intervention.
How would we feel if a Bristol Rovers player does something similar today?
If a Darlington player does it would our fans celebrate or condone it ?
We are all judged by our actions and how we react to others. Personally I don’t mind being thought of as a very average footballer but I would like to think people know I try to be honest.

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Re: Diego Maradona

Post by jjljks » Sun Nov 29, 2020 12:23 pm

Everyone has to agree that the Hand of God incident was just not cricket.

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Re: Diego Maradona

Post by Mister e » Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:33 pm

I have to laugh at comments that England targeted him Peter Reid was so fat and slow he couldn't catch him trailing him all the way back from the half way line..As for Argentinian legends the player I always admired rarely gets mentioned Mario kempes.

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Re: Diego Maradona

Post by StevieMardenboro » Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:26 pm

In nearly 40 years watching football I have not seen a player dominate a world cup or ignite and inspire a city like Maradona did in Mexico and Naples. I can't think of anyone who comes close to him in terms of what he could do on a pitch or the impact off it. If I was older I might be saying Pele or Best or Cruyff were the greatest, if I was younger it might be Messi and Ronaldo or maybe even Ronaldo. But I grew up in the 80s and Maradona was untouchably brilliant. Best ever.

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Re: Diego Maradona

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:33 pm

jjljks wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 12:23 pm
Everyone has to agree that the Hand of God incident was just not cricket.
Too right. I watched this game at the time and bloody hell.

Lo thinks to call him a cheat is unfair, and he’s a ref!
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Diego Maradona

Post by Darlogramps » Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:53 pm

Old Git wrote:In my mind his Hand of God goal was as clear an act of cheating as you will ever see. Perhaps made worse by his pathetic attempt to justify it as some sort of devine intervention.
How would we feel if a Bristol Rovers player does something similar today?
If a Darlington player does it would our fans celebrate or condone it ?
We are all judged by our actions and how we react to others. Personally I don’t mind being thought of as a very average footballer but I would like to think people know I try to be honest.
Has anyone condoned it? Not that I can see.

But the fact he cheated doesn’t change the fact he’s one of the best footballers ever to grace this planet.

It just means he’s a brilliant footballer who cheated blatantly on that occasion.
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Re: Diego Maradona

Post by Darlogramps » Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:56 pm

Mister e wrote:I have to laugh at comments that England targeted him Peter Reid was so fat and slow he couldn't catch him trailing him all the way back from the half way line..As for Argentinian legends the player I always admired rarely gets mentioned Mario kempes.
You need to watch the game properly then. I have to laugh at your ignorance.

Terry Fenwick certainly caught Maradona. Or rather his elbow did.
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Re: Diego Maradona

Post by H1987 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:40 am

Anyone who is suggesting Maradona was on the receiving end of thuggery in that game would do well to watch that game back. The Argentinians gave every bit as much the other way.

If anything it made Maradona’s brilliance all the more remarkable, because that sort of kicking was just the norm at the time.

As for the hand of god thing, I blame two parties ahead of Maradona for that. 1) the officials and 2) Peter Shilton. The first because it’s your job to see that, the second because you were out-jumped by a midget (excuse the un-pc term). Players have done stuff in the heat of the moment to get away with it for time immemorial. I don’t care for the moralising aspect of it.

No, he wasn’t a great human being off the field. A product of his environment, of his fame and of the time, I think. Some of the people insulting him after his death though... Not needed.

He’s already revered with an almost god-like status in Argentina anyway. I saw a statue of him alongside the pope when I was in Buenos Aires. God knows what they’ll plan next.

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Re: Diego Maradona

Post by lo36789 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:47 am

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:33 pm
jjljks wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 12:23 pm
Everyone has to agree that the Hand of God incident was just not cricket.
Too right. I watched this game at the time and bloody hell.

Lo thinks to call him a cheat is unfair, and he’s a ref!
I just think that it's an interesting path to take to call committing fouls cheating. Especially when it seems to primarily depend on whether or not the referee gives them.

When defender deliberately bring down a player who is advancing is that cheating (https://youtu.be/Dmp1fpKkDXk)?

When a defender commits a handball on the goal-line stopping a goal is that cheating (https://youtu.be/vl3HnU0HOhk)? Were all these players cheating (https://youtu.be/52YhAcSK8As)?

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Diego Maradona

Post by Darlogramps » Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:08 am

Yes, those are all examples of cheating.

Deliberately fouling someone clean through on goal, or a goalkeeper handling the ball deliberately outside the area, or deliberately handling the ball to prevent a goal bound shot (Suarez in 2010 World Cup), are all cheating.

That’s why they’re punished with red cards. And it’s still cheating if a ref spots it or not. The referee didn’t spot the Hand of God, but it’s still cheating.

Not all fouls are cheating (50/50 challenges, genuine attempts at playing the ball). But cynically cutting someone down who otherwise would be clean away from you is.
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Re: Diego Maradona

Post by don'tbuythesun » Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:13 am

I don't think anyone's condoning cheating and this obviously was. My point is that to focus on one act is unfair to an obvious footballing genius. Peter Shilton said he was undoubtedly the greatest player he ever played against! Of course if he hadn't used his hand Shilton would have saved it. I was surprised to find Peter Shilton holds the world record for competitive matches 1,390.

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Re: Diego Maradona

Post by al_quaker » Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:36 am

Darlogramps wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:08 am
Yes, those are all examples of cheating.

Deliberately fouling someone clean through on goal, or a goalkeeper handling the ball deliberately outside the area, or deliberately handling the ball to prevent a goal bound shot (Suarez in 2010 World Cup), are all cheating.

That’s why they’re punished with red cards. And it’s still cheating if a ref spots it or not. The referee didn’t spot the Hand of God, but it’s still cheating.

Not all fouls are cheating (50/50 challenges, genuine attempts at playing the ball). But cynically cutting someone down who otherwise would be clean away from you is.
Agreed. The definition of cheat (from google) is to "act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage." So, deliberate fouls, dives, deliberate handballs - all cheating. Maradona punching the ball into the net is one of the most egregious examples of cheating in the history of football. But he can simultaneously have been a cheat and one of the greatest footballers of all time.

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Re: Diego Maradona

Post by H1987 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:32 am

don'tbuythesun wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:13 am
I don't think anyone's condoning cheating and this obviously was. My point is that to focus on one act is unfair to an obvious footballing genius. Peter Shilton said he was undoubtedly the greatest player he ever played against! Of course if he hadn't used his hand Shilton would have saved it. I was surprised to find Peter Shilton holds the world record for competitive matches 1,390.
Shilton should save it anyway, hand or not. He didn’t punch it out of his hands. It was a pathetic, timid attempt at a save.

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Re: Diego Maradona

Post by lo36789 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:33 am

al_quaker wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:36 am
Agreed. The definition of cheat (from google) is to "act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage." So, deliberate fouls, dives, deliberate handballs - all cheating.
Happy as long as we are consistent.

If that is the definition we are using appealing for a decision you know to be incorrect is acting dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.

By that token I would suggest all players are cheats.

Seems weird to hold it against Maradona then, just because he got away with a particularly high profile example.

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Diego Maradona

Post by Darlogramps » Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:49 am

lo36789 wrote:
al_quaker wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:36 am
Agreed. The definition of cheat (from google) is to "act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage." So, deliberate fouls, dives, deliberate handballs - all cheating.
Happy as long as we are consistent.

If that is the definition we are using appealing for a decision you know to be incorrect is acting dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.

By that token I would suggest all players are cheats.

Seems weird to hold it against Maradona then, just because he got away with a particularly high profile example.
But that’s too simplistic and generalised a way of looking at it.

There’s an obvious difference between appealing for a throw-in you know you touched last, and unashamedly punching the ball into the net for a goal.

It’s not inconsistent to say there’s a difference between the two, and to argue the two are comparable is silly.

I’m with you on those holding it against Maradona. It absolutely would be a different reaction had it been Lineker punching it in at the other end. Maradona cheated, got away with it and was pretty brazen about it. I don’t particularly like that but at the same time it’s churlish to hold that against him when it certainly wasn’t the only facet to him, a very complicated man.
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Re: Diego Maradona

Post by al_quaker » Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:54 am

lo36789 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:33 am
al_quaker wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:36 am
Agreed. The definition of cheat (from google) is to "act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage." So, deliberate fouls, dives, deliberate handballs - all cheating.
Happy as long as we are consistent.

If that is the definition we are using appealing for a decision you know to be incorrect is acting dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.

By that token I would suggest all players are cheats.

Seems weird to hold it against Maradona then, just because he got away with a particularly high profile example.
Yes I think that is cheating. I don't like it when it happens. I think it's cheating for a player to pretend he's injured when he's not. And so on.

For what it's worth, I think some people do need to get over the outrage over the Maradona handball incident. Still being outraged nearly 35 years later seems a little over the top in my book. But I think it's entirely factual to say he performed one of the biggest acts of cheating football has ever seen.

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Re: Diego Maradona

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:33 pm

I don't like cheating in football. I don't like it when our players do it, but to me there is a difference between cheating and fouling.

A foul can quite often be a mistimed or dirty tackle. So either making a mistake or going in too hard, Wheatley is an example here because he has a tendency to do both, but he's not a cheat.

A cheat is someone who dives to win a penalty, and yes, I've seen our players sometimes do this - one Darlo player I have in mind here was theatrical on certain occasions - and I don't like this.

Maradona - well, to purposefully score a goal with your hand is undoubtably cheating, and let's not forget he had previous in this department. He'd scored this way before in other games.

And before anyone chips in here and says something like "Ohhh let it go" - I would say, I have - however we can discuss the handball incident and remember the handball incident. Like we can discuss other things from history.

Anyone who says this particular incident wasn't cheating is nuts.
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Re: Diego Maradona

Post by Wiseacre » Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:55 pm

''But I think it's entirely factual to say he performed one of the biggest acts of cheating football has ever seen.''

I would disagree with this point, nobody was hurt - unlike the French lad so brutally assaulted by the German keeper at the previous World Cup, who also, incredibly, got away with it. Both incidents make the case for VAR and isn't the continued controversy about Maradona around the issue that it was entirely and brazenly apparent, and against us. My point is that one event in his career gets remembered because it was done in plain site whereas most of the 'cheating' comes from players canny enough to disguise it as they stretch the rules as far as they can. Graham Souness, who was in a position to know, once said that 'referees don't know half of what goes in a football match'. Can you imagine the stick Maradona was subject to? Gentille kept the boot he broke DM's leg with in a glass case at home, one of the biggest acts of fouling/cheating they wheel out for disapproval was a Spanish player who 'tackled' our man and almost left him in bits. Compared to this the 'hand of god' stuff seems like the kind of cheek you can almost admire - you have to concede it was well done.
Any serious football fan has to be glad the guy lasted as well as he did and left us so much more to talk about.

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Re: Diego Maradona

Post by don'tbuythesun » Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:53 pm

I think in the normal run of play the ball was going into Shilton's arms and he didn't expect "god's" hand to tip it over him. Timid and pathetic unfair words to use about a very good, brave and reliable keeper who has 50 more caps than the next keeper.

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