Season at risk of finishing early

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LoidLucan
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by LoidLucan » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:19 pm

spen666 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:06 pm
This has been posted in reply to an earlier tweet from Oliver Bayliss

https://twitter.com/harrycannon1954/sta ... 6169759746

If true, Number 1 is a non-starter (clubs taking on big, crippling loans for a ridiculous, chaotic season without fans), Number 2 would require the National League to claw it back from the clubs in one way or another if it somehow was able to take on such huge loans for a short-term fix, so that leaves...
Last edited by LoidLucan on Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lo36789
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by lo36789 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:24 pm

Number 2 is basically the same as Number 1 unless you get promoted or relegated.

A reduction in income to the value of the repayment of a debt has the exact same impact.

It's the equivalent of getting my mortgage taken out PAYE. Guess there are tax benefits.

Darlofan97
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by Darlofan97 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:33 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:24 pm
Number 2 is basically the same as Number 1 unless you get promoted or relegated.

A reduction in income to the value of the repayment of a debt has the exact same impact.

It's the equivalent of getting my mortgage taken out PAYE. Guess there are tax benefits.
No, it doesn’t have the same impact.

Taking on loans impacts our balance sheet, our liabilities as a business & our ability to lend in future, this won’t be the case if the National League takes on the loan.

League distribution is worth around c£15k each season for us, that is the maximum which we would be ‘hit’ by each season if the National League reduced this to £0 per season to claim this back to repay their loan.

We won’t be saddled with debt, the National League will be though, which is why I’m surprised they’re offering to take this all on to covert in to grants for clubs. Devil will be in the detail.

spen666
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by spen666 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:39 pm

Image

Posted 30 mins ago by Ollie Bayliss

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by spen666 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:40 pm

Image

shildonlad
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by shildonlad » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:46 pm

If the season does stand a good chance of been canned why on earth bother with the next two games, pointless
I may not live in the north east anymore but i still support the north east teams

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:48 pm

With no fans or no grants, what is the benefit to our club (or any club) of continuing this season?

I can understand the government wanting it to continue as they will clawback tax and N.I. from the money that will have to be borrowed in order to pay out the wages. Primarily the wages of players getting paid to put on a show that no one can see.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

EDJOHNS
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by EDJOHNS » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:26 pm

Darlofan97 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:44 pm
EDJOHNS wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:25 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:39 pm
It’s absolutely shocking from the DCMS & the National League.

Either party may not have specifically said that the funding would not be in the form of loans distributed to clubs, but it is not reasonable to have ever expected this to occur.

If we were to continue to be funded at the same level as October, November & December (in the form of monthly loans) we will find ourselves with an additional £150k of debt plus any interest at the end of the season.

Some clubs will obviously need a lot more to survive the remaining 5 months = more debt owed.

It’s crazy. I don’t know how the National League board have allowed this to happen. The integrity of the league and the footballing pyramid is on the brink of collapse, in addition to any confidence in the governance of the National League board (they haven’t even provided a full copy of the Bernstein report on the funding formula to clubs, for goodness sake).

A u-turn is needed within the next 24/48 hours. Otherwise we should furlough all management & players until the end of the season and not fulfil our fixtures. That is a better option than being saddled with debt long-term, or even worse.
Not a good plan if we are the only 1 doing it as we would be seen to have resigned the club from the league. Back to NL or NPL at best.
We really need all clubs to stick together on this.
We won't be demoted.

Even if we were (which we won't), it would be a better option than putting the future of the club at risk by taking on substantial debt.
I did not say we would be demoted. I said we would be seen to have resigned. (Which by refusing to play we would be doing). If you want to think we would stay in this league if that happened then dream on. We would have to restart as a new club, (which is what we fought against in 2012).
The only way not to risk that scenario is the hope all clubs act in similar manner.

lo36789
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by lo36789 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:31 pm

Darlofan97 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:33 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:24 pm
Number 2 is basically the same as Number 1 unless you get promoted or relegated.

A reduction in income to the value of the repayment of a debt has the exact same impact.

It's the equivalent of getting my mortgage taken out PAYE. Guess there are tax benefits.
No, it doesn’t have the same impact.

Taking on loans impacts our balance sheet, our liabilities as a business & our ability to lend in future, this won’t be the case if the National League takes on the loan.

League distribution is worth around c£15k each season for us, that is the maximum which we would be ‘hit’ by each season if the National League reduced this to £0 per season to claim this back to repay their loan.

We won’t be saddled with debt, the National League will be though, which is why I’m surprised they’re offering to take this all on to covert in to grants for clubs. Devil will be in the detail.
£15k of extra revenue to find every season for probably 10 years. For a club that has made losses or just about broken even for the last 8.

The impact on our P&L will be the same as a loan over the same timescale.

We are just paying back via an intermediary.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by Darlofan97 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:41 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:31 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:33 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:24 pm
Number 2 is basically the same as Number 1 unless you get promoted or relegated.

A reduction in income to the value of the repayment of a debt has the exact same impact.

It's the equivalent of getting my mortgage taken out PAYE. Guess there are tax benefits.
No, it doesn’t have the same impact.

Taking on loans impacts our balance sheet, our liabilities as a business & our ability to lend in future, this won’t be the case if the National League takes on the loan.

League distribution is worth around c£15k each season for us, that is the maximum which we would be ‘hit’ by each season if the National League reduced this to £0 per season to claim this back to repay their loan.

We won’t be saddled with debt, the National League will be though, which is why I’m surprised they’re offering to take this all on to covert in to grants for clubs. Devil will be in the detail.
£15k of extra revenue to find every season for probably 10 years.

The impact on our P&L will be the same as a loan over the same timescale.

We are just paying back via an intermediary.
The impact on our P&L will be the same, but like I said, the impact is not the same on our liabilities and on our ability to lend in future (overdrafts, bank loans etc).

It should also be kinder on cash-flow given the timing of the league distribution payment (or lack of payment if this goes ahead).

We aren’t “just paying back via an intermediary”, as the National League aren’t acting as a broker for the loan. We will just not receive a league distribution payment.

The question for the club is, is sacrificing £15k per year for the next 10 years (or so) worth it to play out the rest of this season? I’m not convinced.

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:45 pm

Darlofan97 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:41 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:31 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:33 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:24 pm
Number 2 is basically the same as Number 1 unless you get promoted or relegated.

A reduction in income to the value of the repayment of a debt has the exact same impact.

It's the equivalent of getting my mortgage taken out PAYE. Guess there are tax benefits.
No, it doesn’t have the same impact.

Taking on loans impacts our balance sheet, our liabilities as a business & our ability to lend in future, this won’t be the case if the National League takes on the loan.

League distribution is worth around c£15k each season for us, that is the maximum which we would be ‘hit’ by each season if the National League reduced this to £0 per season to claim this back to repay their loan.

We won’t be saddled with debt, the National League will be though, which is why I’m surprised they’re offering to take this all on to covert in to grants for clubs. Devil will be in the detail.
£15k of extra revenue to find every season for probably 10 years.

The impact on our P&L will be the same as a loan over the same timescale.

We are just paying back via an intermediary.
The impact on our P&L will be the same, but like I said, the impact is not the same on our liabilities and on our ability to lend in future (overdrafts, bank loans etc).

It should also be kinder on cash-flow given the timing of the league distribution payment (or lack of payment if this goes ahead).

We aren’t “just paying back via an intermediary”, as the National League aren’t acting as a broker for the loan. We will just not receive a league distribution payment.

The question for the club is, is sacrificing £15k per year for the next 10 years (or so) worth it to play out the rest of this season? I’m not convinced.
It would be a loan Darlofan97, you can't tart it up to be anything else.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

LoidLucan
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by LoidLucan » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:49 pm

I still don't get why the league are so keen to crack on with this chaotic, dog's breakfast of a season, with training ground football played out in empty stadiums while this pandemic rages on killing a growing number of people.

Darlofan97
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by Darlofan97 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:50 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:26 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:44 pm
EDJOHNS wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:25 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:39 pm
It’s absolutely shocking from the DCMS & the National League.

Either party may not have specifically said that the funding would not be in the form of loans distributed to clubs, but it is not reasonable to have ever expected this to occur.

If we were to continue to be funded at the same level as October, November & December (in the form of monthly loans) we will find ourselves with an additional £150k of debt plus any interest at the end of the season.

Some clubs will obviously need a lot more to survive the remaining 5 months = more debt owed.

It’s crazy. I don’t know how the National League board have allowed this to happen. The integrity of the league and the footballing pyramid is on the brink of collapse, in addition to any confidence in the governance of the National League board (they haven’t even provided a full copy of the Bernstein report on the funding formula to clubs, for goodness sake).

A u-turn is needed within the next 24/48 hours. Otherwise we should furlough all management & players until the end of the season and not fulfil our fixtures. That is a better option than being saddled with debt long-term, or even worse.
Not a good plan if we are the only 1 doing it as we would be seen to have resigned the club from the league. Back to NL or NPL at best.
We really need all clubs to stick together on this.
We won't be demoted.

Even if we were (which we won't), it would be a better option than putting the future of the club at risk by taking on substantial debt.
I did not say we would be demoted. I said we would be seen to have resigned. (Which by refusing to play we would be doing). If you want to think we would stay in this league if that happened then dream on. We would have to restart as a new club, (which is what we fought against in 2012).
The only way not to risk that scenario is the hope all clubs act in similar manner.
The issue in 2012 was related to the golden share.

We could refuse to play on a number of grounds, namely on the impact on loans putting us in significant financial difficulty.

We won’t be expelled from the league for that. I wouldn’t worry about having to restart as a new club if I were you.

Darlofan97
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by Darlofan97 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:54 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:45 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:41 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:31 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:33 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:24 pm
Number 2 is basically the same as Number 1 unless you get promoted or relegated.

A reduction in income to the value of the repayment of a debt has the exact same impact.

It's the equivalent of getting my mortgage taken out PAYE. Guess there are tax benefits.
No, it doesn’t have the same impact.

Taking on loans impacts our balance sheet, our liabilities as a business & our ability to lend in future, this won’t be the case if the National League takes on the loan.

League distribution is worth around c£15k each season for us, that is the maximum which we would be ‘hit’ by each season if the National League reduced this to £0 per season to claim this back to repay their loan.

We won’t be saddled with debt, the National League will be though, which is why I’m surprised they’re offering to take this all on to covert in to grants for clubs. Devil will be in the detail.
£15k of extra revenue to find every season for probably 10 years.

The impact on our P&L will be the same as a loan over the same timescale.

We are just paying back via an intermediary.
The impact on our P&L will be the same, but like I said, the impact is not the same on our liabilities and on our ability to lend in future (overdrafts, bank loans etc).

It should also be kinder on cash-flow given the timing of the league distribution payment (or lack of payment if this goes ahead).

We aren’t “just paying back via an intermediary”, as the National League aren’t acting as a broker for the loan. We will just not receive a league distribution payment.

The question for the club is, is sacrificing £15k per year for the next 10 years (or so) worth it to play out the rest of this season? I’m not convinced.
It would be a loan Darlofan97, you can't tart it up to be anything else.
Apart from it isn’t a loan.

The National League takes on the loan.

We will, however, have our funding cut in order for the National League to repay the loan to the DCMS.

But it isn’t a loan recorded on the accounts, it isn’t a liability & it doesn’t impact our credit score/ability to lend in future.

I’m not arguing for this point but it’s very basic to understand that it isn’t actually a loan, it’s a funding cut.

Yarblockos
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by Yarblockos » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:57 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:45 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:41 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:31 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:33 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:24 pm
Number 2 is basically the same as Number 1 unless you get promoted or relegated.

A reduction in income to the value of the repayment of a debt has the exact same impact.

It's the equivalent of getting my mortgage taken out PAYE. Guess there are tax benefits.
No, it doesn’t have the same impact.

Taking on loans impacts our balance sheet, our liabilities as a business & our ability to lend in future, this won’t be the case if the National League takes on the loan.

League distribution is worth around c£15k each season for us, that is the maximum which we would be ‘hit’ by each season if the National League reduced this to £0 per season to claim this back to repay their loan.

We won’t be saddled with debt, the National League will be though, which is why I’m surprised they’re offering to take this all on to covert in to grants for clubs. Devil will be in the detail.
£15k of extra revenue to find every season for probably 10 years.

The impact on our P&L will be the same as a loan over the same timescale.

We are just paying back via an intermediary.
The impact on our P&L will be the same, but like I said, the impact is not the same on our liabilities and on our ability to lend in future (overdrafts, bank loans etc).

It should also be kinder on cash-flow given the timing of the league distribution payment (or lack of payment if this goes ahead).

We aren’t “just paying back via an intermediary”, as the National League aren’t acting as a broker for the loan. We will just not receive a league distribution payment.

The question for the club is, is sacrificing £15k per year for the next 10 years (or so) worth it to play out the rest of this season? I’m not convinced.
It would be a loan Darlofan97, you can't tart it up to be anything else.
It's like a loan but it's very defintely not a loan. Yes, we would be getting money that would eventually be clawed back by reduced league payments. As correcty stated, it is sacrificing 15K a year for the next 10 years. Importantly, it's not a loan in that it is not added to the balance sheet, thus clubs would not "owe" the money. Does not really seem worth it though.

Darlofan97
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by Darlofan97 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:00 pm

Yarblockos wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:57 pm
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:45 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:41 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:31 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:33 pm


No, it doesn’t have the same impact.

Taking on loans impacts our balance sheet, our liabilities as a business & our ability to lend in future, this won’t be the case if the National League takes on the loan.

League distribution is worth around c£15k each season for us, that is the maximum which we would be ‘hit’ by each season if the National League reduced this to £0 per season to claim this back to repay their loan.

We won’t be saddled with debt, the National League will be though, which is why I’m surprised they’re offering to take this all on to covert in to grants for clubs. Devil will be in the detail.
£15k of extra revenue to find every season for probably 10 years.

The impact on our P&L will be the same as a loan over the same timescale.

We are just paying back via an intermediary.
The impact on our P&L will be the same, but like I said, the impact is not the same on our liabilities and on our ability to lend in future (overdrafts, bank loans etc).

It should also be kinder on cash-flow given the timing of the league distribution payment (or lack of payment if this goes ahead).

We aren’t “just paying back via an intermediary”, as the National League aren’t acting as a broker for the loan. We will just not receive a league distribution payment.

The question for the club is, is sacrificing £15k per year for the next 10 years (or so) worth it to play out the rest of this season? I’m not convinced.
It would be a loan Darlofan97, you can't tart it up to be anything else.
It's like a loan but it's very defintely not a loan. Yes, we would be getting money that would eventually be clawed back by reduced league payments. As correcty stated, it is sacrificing 15K a year for the next 10 years. Importantly, it's not a loan in that it is not added to the balance sheet, thus clubs would not "owe" the money. Does not really seem worth it though.
Agreed.

Sacrificing £150k+ in revenue over 10 years is a big ask.

Plus, potentially, the National League could hold it against clubs in the event it comes in to any money itself. What would normally be distributed to clubs could get swallowed by all the debt owed that was incurred to finish one season.

dfcdfcdfc
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by dfcdfcdfc » Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:45 pm

In addition - let's say Shields are promoted and Blyth relegated then Blyth will have had the money but Shields would suffer the reduced payouts in years to come

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:07 pm

Yarblockos wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:57 pm
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:45 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:41 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:31 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:33 pm


No, it doesn’t have the same impact.

Taking on loans impacts our balance sheet, our liabilities as a business & our ability to lend in future, this won’t be the case if the National League takes on the loan.

League distribution is worth around c£15k each season for us, that is the maximum which we would be ‘hit’ by each season if the National League reduced this to £0 per season to claim this back to repay their loan.

We won’t be saddled with debt, the National League will be though, which is why I’m surprised they’re offering to take this all on to covert in to grants for clubs. Devil will be in the detail.
£15k of extra revenue to find every season for probably 10 years.

The impact on our P&L will be the same as a loan over the same timescale.

We are just paying back via an intermediary.
The impact on our P&L will be the same, but like I said, the impact is not the same on our liabilities and on our ability to lend in future (overdrafts, bank loans etc).

It should also be kinder on cash-flow given the timing of the league distribution payment (or lack of payment if this goes ahead).

We aren’t “just paying back via an intermediary”, as the National League aren’t acting as a broker for the loan. We will just not receive a league distribution payment.



The question for the club is, is sacrificing £15k per year for the next 10 years (or so) worth it to play out the rest of this season? I’m not convinced.
It would be a loan Darlofan97, you can't tart it up to be anything else.
It's like a loan but it's very defintely not a loan. Yes, we would be getting money that would eventually be clawed back by reduced league payments. As correcty stated, it is sacrificing 15K a year for the next 10 years. Importantly, it's not a loan in that it is not added to the balance sheet, thus clubs would not "owe" the money. Does not really seem worth it though.
It's like a loan in the way that it's money we owe that has to be paid back, and will be paid back. in fact it doesn't matter what it's called really as it's still a debt.

Let's look at it another way. If we go with this idea, for every year that the Boost The Budget campaign operates in the future, the fans will have to gift 15K just to get to the point where we would have been without the loan - oops sorry not loan.

I think as a club we've had enough of paying off others people's follies.


EDIT. Underneath is copied from leagues website where option 2 is referred to as a loan.

"The National League has held meetings with Member Clubs today to discuss further information regarding the Government’s Winter Survival Package.

A presentation was given to Member Clubs at today’s meetings to assess various options. The National League wishes to place on record its gratitude for the approach of Member Clubs at each meeting.

Interim General Manager of The National League, Mark Ives, has requested each Member Club to provide views on three points:


1. The operation of a Club Loan process.
2. The operation of a National League Loan.
3. A suspension to The National League 2020/21 season."
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

LoidLucan
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by LoidLucan » Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:27 pm

To put it into perspective in terms of our fundraising, the Darlo lottery raises around £15,000 every year. So it would be like losing the lottery money for the next 10 years.

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:29 pm

I hope D.J. is switched on at present......
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

onewayup
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by onewayup » Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:35 pm

No 3 for me don't take any type of loan ,as this impacts on future seasons revenues, basically you're in debt every season for the next 10years. It's a loan that we can't service . It's untenable. Stop the season now. Unless they give the monies as grants .

Darlofan97
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by Darlofan97 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:40 pm

onewayup wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:35 pm
No 3 for me don't take any type of loan ,as this impacts on future seasons revenues, basically you're in debt every season for the next 10years. It's a loan that we can't service . It's untenable. Stop the season now. Unless they give the monies as grants .
Option 2 is a grant. ;)

Darlofan97
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by Darlofan97 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:42 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:07 pm
Yarblockos wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:57 pm
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:45 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:41 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:31 pm


£15k of extra revenue to find every season for probably 10 years.

The impact on our P&L will be the same as a loan over the same timescale.

We are just paying back via an intermediary.
The impact on our P&L will be the same, but like I said, the impact is not the same on our liabilities and on our ability to lend in future (overdrafts, bank loans etc).

It should also be kinder on cash-flow given the timing of the league distribution payment (or lack of payment if this goes ahead).

We aren’t “just paying back via an intermediary”, as the National League aren’t acting as a broker for the loan. We will just not receive a league distribution payment.



The question for the club is, is sacrificing £15k per year for the next 10 years (or so) worth it to play out the rest of this season? I’m not convinced.
It would be a loan Darlofan97, you can't tart it up to be anything else.
It's like a loan but it's very defintely not a loan. Yes, we would be getting money that would eventually be clawed back by reduced league payments. As correcty stated, it is sacrificing 15K a year for the next 10 years. Importantly, it's not a loan in that it is not added to the balance sheet, thus clubs would not "owe" the money. Does not really seem worth it though.
It's like a loan in the way that it's money we owe that has to be paid back, and will be paid back. in fact it doesn't matter what it's called really as it's still a debt.

Let's look at it another way. If we go with this idea, for every year that the Boost The Budget campaign operates in the future, the fans will have to gift 15K just to get to the point where we would have been without the loan - oops sorry not loan.

I think as a club we've had enough of paying off others people's follies.


EDIT. Underneath is copied from leagues website where option 2 is referred to as a loan.

"The National League has held meetings with Member Clubs today to discuss further information regarding the Government’s Winter Survival Package.

A presentation was given to Member Clubs at today’s meetings to assess various options. The National League wishes to place on record its gratitude for the approach of Member Clubs at each meeting.

Interim General Manager of The National League, Mark Ives, has requested each Member Club to provide views on three points:


1. The operation of a Club Loan process.
2. The operation of a National League Loan.
3. A suspension to The National League 2020/21 season."
It’s a loan because the National League is proposing to take on the loan themselves. Nobody is disputing that.

But it isn’t a loan to the football club, that is option 1.

There is a difference between a debt, loan, and a funding cut required for the National League to re-pay its loan.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by Yarblockos » Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:57 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:07 pm

It's like a loan in the way that it's money we owe that has to be paid back, and will be paid back. in fact it doesn't matter what it's called really as it's still a debt.

Let's look at it another way. If we go with this idea, for every year that the Boost The Budget campaign operates in the future, the fans will have to gift 15K just to get to the point where we would have been without the loan - oops sorry not loan.

I think as a club we've had enough of paying off others people's follies.


EDIT. Underneath is copied from leagues website where option 2 is referred to as a loan.

"The National League has held meetings with Member Clubs today to discuss further information regarding the Government’s Winter Survival Package.

A presentation was given to Member Clubs at today’s meetings to assess various options. The National League wishes to place on record its gratitude for the approach of Member Clubs at each meeting.

Interim General Manager of The National League, Mark Ives, has requested each Member Club to provide views on three points:


1. The operation of a Club Loan process.
2. The operation of a National League Loan.
3. A suspension to The National League 2020/21 season."
Yes, as clearly stated, option 2 is a loan to the NL and a debt owed by the NL to the government, not a loan to clubs, not a debt owed by clubs, but instead a cut in league funding.
Last edited by Yarblockos on Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

en passant
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by en passant » Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:57 pm

I'm not bright enough to worry about the lengthy nuanced arguments above about what you call the money that will keep this season going, but I am concerned about where that takes us. What is the amount that will be given to each club and how long is it supposed to cover? I think I saw the figure of 11million being mentioned, but if 10 million got us through 3 months, 11 million would not last until the end of this season. And then there is the possibility that next season may have to start with no fans and require a further input of money. And all this to hope that this season can ever be completed in a timely manner, which is looking increasingly unlikely.
An additional concern is that this may split the clubs into two groups. The ones who see some advantage in carrying on, or who have an investor who is prepared to carry the load, and the likes of our club that would be risking its existence to limp on under duress. What if the former are in the majority and we just can't live with that decision?

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:00 pm

Darlofan97 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:42 pm
It’s a loan because the National League is proposing to take on the loan themselves. Nobody is disputing that.

But it isn’t a loan to the football club, that is option 1.

There is a difference between a debt, loan, and a funding cut required for the National League to re-pay its loan.
There is no difference in monetary terms, the end result is the same. Whether we pay back the notational amount of 15K a year or don't receive the notational amount of 15K per year - it makes no difference.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by Darlofan97 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:03 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:00 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:42 pm
It’s a loan because the National League is proposing to take on the loan themselves. Nobody is disputing that.

But it isn’t a loan to the football club, that is option 1.

There is a difference between a debt, loan, and a funding cut required for the National League to re-pay its loan.
There is no difference in monetary terms, the end result is the same. Whether we pay back the notational amount of 15K a year or don't receive the notational amount of 15K per year - it makes no difference.
I agree with that.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by Yarblockos » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:06 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:00 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:42 pm
It’s a loan because the National League is proposing to take on the loan themselves. Nobody is disputing that.

But it isn’t a loan to the football club, that is option 1.

There is a difference between a debt, loan, and a funding cut required for the National League to re-pay its loan.
There is no difference in monetary terms, the end result is the same. Whether we pay back the notational amount of 15K a year or don't receive the notational amount of 15K per year - it makes no difference.
No difference in monetary terms, if it was an interest free loan that is. Option 1 is a loan at 2% interest. It does make a difference because you have no debt on your balance sheet with option 2 and you have nobody demanding a loan payment each month. If you genuinely think there is no difference I assume you would be advising DJ that option 1 is exactly the same as option 2. And you would expect him to agree with you? I don't think you would.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by al_quaker » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:07 pm

According to the DFC statement, option 2 has interest on it too

And both option 1 and 2 are unsuitable for us

https://darlingtonfc.co.uk/news/winter- ... -statement

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by Yarblockos » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:10 pm

al_quaker wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:07 pm
According to the DFC statement, option 2 has interest on it too

And both option 1 and 2 are unsuitable for us

https://darlingtonfc.co.uk/news/winter- ... -statement
That is now how it has been reported elsewhere. A cut in funding does not have an interest rate. Not sure that statement reports the options accurately, but safe to say it sounds like the club are against both options.

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