Season at risk of finishing early

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:14 pm

Yarblockos wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:57 pm
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:07 pm

It's like a loan in the way that it's money we owe that has to be paid back, and will be paid back. in fact it doesn't matter what it's called really as it's still a debt.

Let's look at it another way. If we go with this idea, for every year that the Boost The Budget campaign operates in the future, the fans will have to gift 15K just to get to the point where we would have been without the loan - oops sorry not loan.

I think as a club we've had enough of paying off others people's follies.


EDIT. Underneath is copied from leagues website where option 2 is referred to as a loan.

"The National League has held meetings with Member Clubs today to discuss further information regarding the Government’s Winter Survival Package.

A presentation was given to Member Clubs at today’s meetings to assess various options. The National League wishes to place on record its gratitude for the approach of Member Clubs at each meeting.

Interim General Manager of The National League, Mark Ives, has requested each Member Club to provide views on three points:


1. The operation of a Club Loan process.
2. The operation of a National League Loan.
3. A suspension to The National League 2020/21 season."
Yes, as clearly stated, option 2 is a loan to the NL and a debt owed by the NL to the government, not a loan to clubs, not a debt owed by clubs, but instead a cut in league funding.

This is semantics. If you look up "loan" in a dictionary it says the following...

'loan 1 |ləʊn|
noun
a thing that is borrowed, especially a sum of money that is expected to be paid back with interest: borrowers can take out a loan for £84,000.'

So my point is this.
This money is a loan because it has to be paid back.
It gets paid back in the manner of us losing an income that we would otherwise have had if we hadn't taken the money.
We lose this income from the league until (wait for it) the money gets paid back.
= LOAN.

I'm checking out now. I'm really surprised that some people can't understand this.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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loan_star
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by loan_star » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:16 pm

Pull the season. Its the only sensible option if there are no grants.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by lo36789 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:17 pm

It has been reported that the money would be clawed back. The NL would have to pay interest so they would claw back the interest from the clubs.

Ultimately we'd just be losing revenue for longer to cover the interest charge.

Old Git
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by Old Git » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:19 pm

What a bloody mess. What worries me is if we lose the vote and the NL wants to carry on will we be faced with the stark choice of carrying on and possibly putting the clubs financial position at risk or stop playing and face punishment from the NL.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by JasonDeVos » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:22 pm

Yarblockos wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:10 pm
al_quaker wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:07 pm
According to the DFC statement, option 2 has interest on it too

And both option 1 and 2 are unsuitable for us

https://darlingtonfc.co.uk/news/winter- ... -statement
That is now how it has been reported elsewhere. A cut in funding does not have an interest rate. Not sure that statement reports the options accurately, but safe to say it sounds like the club are against both options.
Not worth risking the future of the club. Bank the cup money and start again whenever that might be.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by en passant » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:25 pm

Old Git wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:19 pm
What a bloody mess. What worries me is if we lose the vote and the NL wants to carry on will we be faced with the stark choice of carrying on and possibly putting the clubs financial position at risk or stop playing and face punishment from the NL.
See my post above. This still worries me. If the majority vote to continue the League would surely not countenance some clubs refusing to continue without some consequences. It would, however, be a way to shorten the season and get all the remaining games completed, and would additionally appeal to those clubs who think they can live with the loss of money if it gives them a better chance to get promoted.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by onewayup » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:29 pm

It's money that has to be paid back tart it up however you like ,it's borrowed money, I. E. A loan with or without interest it still a loan, its money clubs won't get in future seasons impacting on a clubs revenue. STOP THE SEASON NOW, unless they guarantee a grant. We don't want to be in administration after all the good work that has been done over the last 9 years.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by tdk1 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:37 pm

Yeah, the season has to end. I'll be gutted as frankly, we all need a few things to look forward to at the moment and watching the odd match was mine. But we can't be trying to service a debt like that for however long for a season with no consequences, in grounds without fans, while putting players at risk of contracting covid and spreading it within their other workplaces.

The national league has genuinely disgraced itself with its handling of this crisis. There was no reason to force clubs into starting the season, and it has done almost nothing to make playing feasible.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by tdk1 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:39 pm

Also, i once again find myself grateful that David Johnson is in charge of darlo.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by Quaker85 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:47 pm

What happens if the NL clubs vote to carry on but N&S clubs decide they can’t play without putting their club in jeopardy? The directors would be breaking the law continuing to trade in those circumstances. The NL would be unable to enforce their decision and the season would descend into total farce.


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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by tdk1 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:54 pm

My concern is that clubs who are either generously backed or who have rolled the dice on this season will be wanting to play on, which could leave others being forced into extremely difficult decisions. It's appalling really that the national league has put us in this position.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:12 pm

tdk1 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:39 pm
Also, i once again find myself grateful that David Johnson is in charge of darlo.
Me too. I'm glad he can recognise the difference between a loan and a loan. Unlike some people on here. :wtf:
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

Darlofan97
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by Darlofan97 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:15 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:12 pm
tdk1 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:39 pm
Also, i once again find myself grateful that David Johnson is in charge of darlo.
Me too. I'm glad he can recognise the difference between a loan and a loan. Unlike some people on here. :wtf:
In accounting terms, it isn’t a loan or a debt for the club. It is a grant (or grants) provided from the National League.

It is, however, a cut to funding in order to enable the National League to repay their loan to the DCMS.

DJ knows this, he is simply trying to do the best for DFC and I totally agree with his stance. We shouldn’t face being c£15k down each season for the next 10 years, just for the next 20 weeks of football.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:18 pm

Yarblockos wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:06 pm
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:00 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:42 pm
It’s a loan because the National League is proposing to take on the loan themselves. Nobody is disputing that.

But it isn’t a loan to the football club, that is option 1.

There is a difference between a debt, loan, and a funding cut required for the National League to re-pay its loan.
There is no difference in monetary terms, the end result is the same. Whether we pay back the notational amount of 15K a year or don't receive the notational amount of 15K per year - it makes no difference.
No difference in monetary terms, if it was an interest free loan that is. Option 1 is a loan at 2% interest. It does make a difference because you have no debt on your balance sheet with option 2 and you have nobody demanding a loan payment each month. If you genuinely think there is no difference I assume you would be advising DJ that option 1 is exactly the same as option 2. And you would expect him to agree with you? I don't think you would.
VERY FUNNY - LOOK AT DJ's STATEMENT. HA HA.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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dfc4me
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by dfc4me » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:29 pm

Looking at option 3, the NL use the word suspend rather than end or cancel the season. Hopefully they don’t intend to try and restart at a later date.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by spen666 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:36 pm

dfc4me wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:29 pm
Looking at option 3, the NL use the word suspend rather than end or cancel the season. Hopefully they don’t intend to try and restart at a later date.
I was interested in the conditions in the club statement re option 3 - ie that a grant alone is not enough to carry on . It must be
a) Grant
b) Covid Testing
c) Promotion to NL still being available

item b) appears to be a new demand and will cost a significant amount of money that I am not sure the clubs or the NL have. I don't oppose the idea and it is crazy the games have been allowed to continue without it

Item c) is most interesting to me. Has it been suggested this will not happen if the season continues?

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by Darlo Dodger » Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:33 pm

Chester & Romford MPs have both written to Oliver Dowden on the issue.
Don’t know if the sport loving MP for Darlington will be doing likewise but it shouldn’t be too much to expect.
https://twitter.com/thomasfeaheny/statu ... 20290?s=21

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by jjljks » Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:20 am

Having read DJ's official club response to the 3 options proposed at the Wednesday meeting of NL, I am grateful we have have such a level headed business man in charge. Would not swap that man for some egomaniac with millions to throw away. As fans we should stick together & back DJ 100%

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by eek » Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:26 am

spen666 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:36 pm

Item c) is most interesting to me. Has it been suggested this will not happen if the season continues?
It wouldn't surprise me if the NL clubs facing relegation decided to pull a trick like that so it's better to make it an explicit requirement

After all it is a detail (the fact most people thought the money was a grant not a loan) that seems to have created this mess in the first place.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by EDJOHNS » Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:33 am

Darlofan97 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:50 pm
EDJOHNS wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:26 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:44 pm
EDJOHNS wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:25 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:39 pm
It’s absolutely shocking from the DCMS & the National League.

Either party may not have specifically said that the funding would not be in the form of loans distributed to clubs, but it is not reasonable to have ever expected this to occur.

If we were to continue to be funded at the same level as October, November & December (in the form of monthly loans) we will find ourselves with an additional £150k of debt plus any interest at the end of the season.

Some clubs will obviously need a lot more to survive the remaining 5 months = more debt owed.

It’s crazy. I don’t know how the National League board have allowed this to happen. The integrity of the league and the footballing pyramid is on the brink of collapse, in addition to any confidence in the governance of the National League board (they haven’t even provided a full copy of the Bernstein report on the funding formula to clubs, for goodness sake).

A u-turn is needed within the next 24/48 hours. Otherwise we should furlough all management & players until the end of the season and not fulfil our fixtures. That is a better option than being saddled with debt long-term, or even worse.
Not a good plan if we are the only 1 doing it as we would be seen to have resigned the club from the league. Back to NL or NPL at best.
We really need all clubs to stick together on this.
We won't be demoted.

Even if we were (which we won't), it would be a better option than putting the future of the club at risk by taking on substantial debt.
I did not say we would be demoted. I said we would be seen to have resigned. (Which by refusing to play we would be doing). If you want to think we would stay in this league if that happened then dream on. We would have to restart as a new club, (which is what we fought against in 2012).
The only way not to risk that scenario is the hope all clubs act in similar manner.
The issue in 2012 was related to the golden share.

We could refuse to play on a number of grounds, namely on the impact on loans putting us in significant financial difficulty.

We won’t be expelled from the league for that. I wouldn’t worry about having to restart as a new club if I were you.
Like Gramps, you think you are always correct. If we pull the plug and all others play on you think nothing would happen about it? That really is dreaming, and if you are prepared to risk it then I very much doubt many others would.
Quite simply, if you withdraw from a league that is still playing your record will be expunged. You will have withdrawn. Go check up the dictionary if you do not understand that.
We need at least multiple teams refusing to play on and force the issue to be safe of that happening.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by al_quaker » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:05 am

https://www.chesterfc.com/2021/01/20/cl ... n-2020-21/

Interesting statement by Chester - I can understand clubs being wary of 2 give the way that the National League handled the distribution of the initial grant

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:09 am

EDJOHNS wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:33 am
[quote=Darlofan97 post_id=472619 time=<a href="tel:1611168645">1611168645</a> user_id=1798]
[quote=EDJOHNS post_id=472612 time=<a href="tel:1611167174">1611167174</a> user_id=21498]
[quote=Darlofan97 post_id=472600 time=<a href="tel:1611161056">1611161056</a> user_id=1798]
[quote=EDJOHNS post_id=472597 time=<a href="tel:1611159918">1611159918</a> user_id=21498]
[quote=Darlofan97 post_id=472514 time=<a href="tel:1611092365">1611092365</a> user_id=1798]
It’s absolutely shocking from the DCMS & the National League.

Either party may not have specifically said that the funding would not be in the form of loans distributed to clubs, but it is not reasonable to have ever expected this to occur.

If we were to continue to be funded at the same level as October, November & December (in the form of monthly loans) we will find ourselves with an additional £150k of debt plus any interest at the end of the season.

Some clubs will obviously need a lot more to survive the remaining 5 months = more debt owed.

It’s crazy. I don’t know how the National League board have allowed this to happen. The integrity of the league and the footballing pyramid is on the brink of collapse, in addition to any confidence in the governance of the National League board (they haven’t even provided a full copy of the Bernstein report on the funding formula to clubs, for goodness sake).

A u-turn is needed within the next 24/48 hours. Otherwise we should furlough all management & players until the end of the season and not fulfil our fixtures. That is a better option than being saddled with debt long-term, or even worse.
Not a good plan if we are the only 1 doing it as we would be seen to have resigned the club from the league. Back to NL or NPL at best.
We really need all clubs to stick together on this.
[/quote]

We won't be demoted.

Even if we were (which we won't), it would be a better option than putting the future of the club at risk by taking on substantial debt.
[/quote]

I did not say we would be demoted. I said we would be seen to have resigned. (Which by refusing to play we would be doing). If you want to think we would stay in this league if that happened then dream on. We would have to restart as a new club, (which is what we fought against in 2012).
The only way not to risk that scenario is the hope all clubs act in similar manner.
[/quote]

The issue in 2012 was related to the golden share.

We could refuse to play on a number of grounds, namely on the impact on loans putting us in significant financial difficulty.

We won’t be expelled from the league for that. I wouldn’t worry about having to restart as a new club if I were you.
[/quote]

Like Gramps, you think you are always correct. If we pull the plug and all others play on you think nothing would happen about it? That really is dreaming, and if you are prepared to risk it then I very much doubt many others would.
Quite simply, if you withdraw from a league that is still playing your record will be expunged. You will have withdrawn. Go check up the dictionary if you do not understand that.
We need at least multiple teams refusing to play on and force the issue to be safe of that happening.
[/quote]

If we were the only team to vote to end the season or pull out then that could be very difficult.

Can any club be forced to take out a loan? I think it’s very unlikely so how would options 1 or 2 be forced onto unwilling members of the league?
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

spen666
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by spen666 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:21 am

eek wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:26 am
spen666 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:36 pm

Item c) is most interesting to me. Has it been suggested this will not happen if the season continues?
It wouldn't surprise me if the NL clubs facing relegation decided to pull a trick like that so it's better to make it an explicit requirement

After all it is a detail (the fact most people thought the money was a grant not a loan) that seems to have created this mess in the first place.

Good shout - especially when the NL have overwhelming majority of the votes

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by lo36789 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:22 am

There are three times in the past where we have effectively said we can not afford to continue playing.

You don't just get a free pass of "that's fine, come back when you are ready".

If the decision is not 3, as is our preference we can by all means furlough and shut down but we will be a) fined for failing to fulfil fixtures and b) will finish the season on 13 points.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:25 am

lo36789 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:22 am
There are three times in the past where we have effectively said we can not afford to continue playing.

You don't just get a free pass of "that's fine, come back when you are ready".

If the decision is not 3, as is our preference we can by all means furlough and shut down but we will be a) fined for failing to fulfil fixtures and b) will finish the season on 13 points.
I’m not sure lo. These are unprecedented times.

You would have football clubs forced to play without fans coming in. Football clubs in effect forced to lose money.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by spen666 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:27 am

al_quaker wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:05 am
https://www.chesterfc.com/2021/01/20/cl ... n-2020-21/

Interesting statement by Chester - I can understand clubs being wary of 2 give the way that the National League handled the distribution of the initial grant
That statement from Chester is very interesting,

Take this fictional scenario:
a) clubs by a majority vote for option 1 - the loans from Sport England
b) A club ( who never voted for option 1) who apply do not meet the criteria "Applications assessed on an individual basis against strict criteria " and are refused a loan
c) As it is illegal to trade insolvently ( to use a colloquial phrase), the club say they cannot continue to play


Then what?

That club were not given a loan, but the others in the division met whatever criteria and got loans? The club could argue they have been discriminated against

Again, a bit of an unknown as what the strict criteria have not been published

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by spen666 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:29 am

lo36789 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:22 am
There are three times in the past where we have effectively said we can not afford to continue playing.

You don't just get a free pass of "that's fine, come back when you are ready".

If the decision is not 3, as is our preference we can by all means furlough and shut down but we will be a) fined for failing to fulfil fixtures and b) will finish the season on 13 points.
if that happened at this stage in a normal season, the record would be expunged. Its only after 70 or 75% of games have been played by a club their record is not expunged and points for unfulfilled games go to opposition, but no change to goal difference made

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Spyman
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by Spyman » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:40 am

tdk1 wrote:Also, i once again find myself grateful that David Johnson is in charge of darlo.
He'd be equally as grateful if you got his name right Image

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

DC

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by lo36789 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:49 am

spen666 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:29 am
lo36789 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:22 am
There are three times in the past where we have effectively said we can not afford to continue playing.

You don't just get a free pass of "that's fine, come back when you are ready".

If the decision is not 3, as is our preference we can by all means furlough and shut down but we will be a) fined for failing to fulfil fixtures and b) will finish the season on 13 points.
if that happened at this stage in a normal season, the record would be expunged. Its only after 70 or 75% of games have been played by a club their record is not expunged and points for unfulfilled games go to opposition, but no change to goal difference made
There is a difference though.

Formally withdraw from the league versus simply on every matchday say we don't have a squad they are all furloughed...well until the point that they are not.

I mean they would probs vote and vote to expunge and we'd finish on 0 points so would be relegated.

There is no way that they are going to let some clubs play on and others say "we will wait until next season".

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by spen666 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:05 am

lo36789 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:49 am
spen666 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:29 am
lo36789 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:22 am
There are three times in the past where we have effectively said we can not afford to continue playing.

You don't just get a free pass of "that's fine, come back when you are ready".

If the decision is not 3, as is our preference we can by all means furlough and shut down but we will be a) fined for failing to fulfil fixtures and b) will finish the season on 13 points.
if that happened at this stage in a normal season, the record would be expunged. Its only after 70 or 75% of games have been played by a club their record is not expunged and points for unfulfilled games go to opposition, but no change to goal difference made
There is a difference though.

Formally withdraw from the league versus simply on every matchday say we don't have a squad they are all furloughed...well until the point that they are not.

I mean they would probs vote and vote to expunge and we'd finish on 0 points so would be relegated.

There is no way that they are going to let some clubs play on and others say "we will wait until next season".
The vote would not be to expunge or not in those circumstances. The vote would be to expel from league or not and would inevitably be to expel and therefore as so few games played the records would be expunged ( but fines imposed for booking/ sendings off etc still stand!)

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