League restarts 6 February

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JE93
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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by JE93 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:17 am

Gloucester joint owner confirming on twitter he's voted against resolution 1 (so to keep the.leagues together) and against resolution 4.

So wants to keep playing. Not a massive surprise, and tbh not too impactful atm considering both those votes go with National League rules so the NLN and NLS only have 4 votes per league.

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:08 am

The National league are now requesting the minutes taken from the crucial meeting with the government re when funding Details were agreed. The minutes have disappeared apparently, the government say there aren’t any, which seems odd when there’s huge sums of public money being chewed over.

It’s a good idea but why has it taken so long?

They (League) need Someone with a sharp legal brain to advise them, someone switched on and who knows everything about football. Hang on ....
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by dfc4me » Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:53 am

So the 23 NL clubs effectively get to decide the future of the 66 NLN/NLS clubs and thus give the NL board the result they want ie to complete the season regardless of the consequences. I wonder if this could end up in some kind of legal challenge or, if clubs stick together, refusal to play. H&S due to no COVID testing may be one possible route.

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by lo36789 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:09 am

dfc4me wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:53 am
I wonder if this could end up in some kind of legal challenge or, if clubs stick together, refusal to play. H&S due to no COVID testing may be one possible route.
Doubt it. They are applying their membership rules to the letter.

As South Shields found out last year to their cost. The FA Competition rukes clearly stated that the FA Leagues Council or whatever they are called have the right to null and void on a majority vote. When they made that decisions they were simply applying competition rules.

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by en passant » Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:17 am

Having read the details of what has been put before the National League teams to vote on I understand that there is some fear that the initial resolution can effectively put a stop to separate votes for the National League and a joint North/South vote. The National League can then force all three leagues to continue by voting against the fourth resolution. It may be that normal voting rules compel the decisions to have this unintended consequence. This seems unfair on the North/South Leagues if their financial constraints are far greater than those felt in the National League. It would seem churlish for the National League to force such a decision on the lower leagues unless they have a good reason to do so. I just wonder what that reason might be (other than doing so by accident because of the lack of clarity in these resolutions).

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by Old Git » Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:29 am

Totally understand people’s suspicions about the possible rigging of the vote in favour of carrying on even against the wishes of the NLN and NLS. However still hoping common sense will prevail. Is it really in the interests of the bigger clubs to force this through and push clubs like ours to the edge of extinction ?
Surely most NL Chairman would be satisfied if they are allowed to play on and let NLN and NLS finish if that is their wish. It would certainly mean no relegation for them and would allow the whole League’s future to be more certain.
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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by Alfie » Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:43 am

Wonder in resolution 1 how the 2 votes for NLN/S will be cast as there is clearly a difference of opinion within these leagues. Some - York, Gloucester, Chorley etal - want to carry on, others (a majority don't). Do they have a preliminary vote and the 2 votes go with the majority?

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by LoidLucan » Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:43 am

It seems a crazy situation that a club like ours could effectively be forced into taking out crippling loans to carry on playing football in empty grounds with revenue streams cut off with no testing regime during a deadly pandemic. Our financial wellbeing could be effectively decided by clubs like Solihull Moors who have stated that they have more than enough cash from their bankrollers to continue playing without crowds for the rest of the season and beyond if required. Their huge payroll includes £4,000 a week man Adam Rooney. It truly is a mad, mad world.

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:10 am

LoidLucan wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:43 am
It seems a crazy situation that a club like ours could effectively be forced into taking out crippling loans to carry on playing football in empty grounds with revenue streams cut off with no testing regime during a deadly pandemic. Our financial wellbeing could be effectively decided by clubs like Solihull Moors who have stated that they have more than enough cash from their bankrollers to continue playing without crowds for the rest of the season and beyond if required. Their huge payroll includes £4,000 a week man Adam Rooney. It truly is a mad, mad world.
This is the nightmare scenario - personally I doubt it would happen but if it did imagine the bad press it would receive. Especially if the clubs wanting to stop were heavily weighted to a North based bias. i.e. 16 clubs in the North voted to stop but were forced to play on because of votes in the South.

Concord however are on strike!
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by lo36789 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:19 am

Alfie wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:43 am
Wonder in resolution 1 how the 2 votes for NLN/S will be cast as there is clearly a difference of opinion within these leagues. Some - York, Gloucester, Chorley etal - want to carry on, others (a majority don't). Do they have a preliminary vote and the 2 votes go with the majority?
All 4 votes of each respective division go with the majority opinion of that division.

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by lo36789 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:24 am

Old Git wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:29 am
Totally understand people’s suspicions about the possible rigging of the vote in favour of carrying on even against the wishes of the NLN and NLS.
It isn't "rigging" per say. It is really just game theory. Each participant will choose the outcome which is most likely to avoid the outcome they don't want.

Assuming clubs vote rationally (to achieve the outcome they have stated) the outcome would be a vote against resolution 1, and a vote against resolution 4.

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by onewayup » Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:28 am

Old Git wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:12 pm
Any chance the National League could put the statement in plain English!
Not a cat in hell's chance, it's the put in that way so that they the national league management can control the outcome to their satisfaction ,they are again not accepting that they got it wrong from the start ,now asking the clubs to make a decision if it goes tits up they will put the onus onto the club's decisions, they are supposed to be management but can't make a sensible decision , why won't they except that their miss handling form day one created this whole situation, mistrust disarray, no leadership and still they are trying to shift the onus.to others.
The uncertainty surrounding this is affecting many people not just the clubs but the wider community. The sooner it's sorted and stopped the better,

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:08 pm

onewayup wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:28 am
Old Git wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:12 pm
Any chance the National League could put the statement in plain English!
Not a cat in hell's chance, it's the put in that way so that they the national league management can control the outcome to their satisfaction ,they are again not accepting that they got it wrong from the start ,now asking the clubs to make a decision if it goes tits up they will put the onus onto the club's decisions, they are supposed to be management but can't make a sensible decision , why won't they except that their miss handling form day one created this whole situation, mistrust disarray, no leadership and still they are trying to shift the onus.to others.
The uncertainty surrounding this is affecting many people not just the clubs but the wider community. The sooner it's sorted and stopped the better,
I agree with that onewayup - but it's interesting that the league are now demanding the minutes of the meeting - the meeting that ultimately led to this point now. If this record of conversations were to turn up it would indeed show if fault lies with the league or government.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by spen666 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:31 pm

LoidLucan wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:43 am
It seems a crazy situation that a club like ours could effectively be forced into taking out crippling loans to carry on playing football in empty grounds with revenue streams cut off with no testing regime during a deadly pandemic. Our financial wellbeing could be effectively decided by clubs like Solihull Moors who have stated that they have more than enough cash from their bankrollers to continue playing without crowds for the rest of the season and beyond if required. Their huge payroll includes £4,000 a week man Adam Rooney. It truly is a mad, mad world.
Why would NL clubs want NLN/NLS to continue? If NLN/S are allowed to vote on their continuing, its likely (hopefully) that the majority would vote to end season now. This would mean there is no relegation from the NL ( even if that continues). Therefore I would expect any side at risk of relegation from NL vote for resolution 1 allowing NLN/S to vote on their own future.

If I am wrong on the above, then if decision is for NLN/S to continue, what at the NL going to do is all or most dissenting clubs refuse to play. Say for example 8 or more clubs in NLN or same in NLS refuse to play on, what are NL Management going to do about it? The bad publicity they would get from forcing clubs to take crippling loans or to incur debts for no benefit would be devastating for football.

Hopefully the worry is over a situation that will not happen.


NL vote to carry on and NLN/S end season now is best outcome. It preserves promotion/ relegation from EFL as well

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by loan_star » Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:46 pm

onewayup wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:28 am
Not a cat in hell's chance, it's the put in that way so that they the national league management can control the outcome to their satisfaction
Just like when they have someone up on a charge at the FA, its always worded so that they'll find you guilty!

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:52 pm

EFL get funding from above. Small clubs have been given grants to pay utilities etc, yet our 3 leagues are expected to take on debt.

And I can't stand this claptrap saying "It's low interest/it's a long payment term/there can be holidays" - it's still debt, and even with a low interest rate there's still someone making a profit out of this proposal.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by Richie_darlo » Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:10 pm

spen666 wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:31 pm
LoidLucan wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:43 am
It seems a crazy situation that a club like ours could effectively be forced into taking out crippling loans to carry on playing football in empty grounds with revenue streams cut off with no testing regime during a deadly pandemic. Our financial wellbeing could be effectively decided by clubs like Solihull Moors who have stated that they have more than enough cash from their bankrollers to continue playing without crowds for the rest of the season and beyond if required. Their huge payroll includes £4,000 a week man Adam Rooney. It truly is a mad, mad world.
Why would NL clubs want NLN/NLS to continue? If NLN/S are allowed to vote on their continuing, its likely (hopefully) that the majority would vote to end season now. This would mean there is no relegation from the NL ( even if that continues). Therefore I would expect any side at risk of relegation from NL vote for resolution 1 allowing NLN/S to vote on their own future.

If I am wrong on the above, then if decision is for NLN/S to continue, what at the NL going to do is all or most dissenting clubs refuse to play. Say for example 8 or more clubs in NLN or same in NLS refuse to play on, what are NL Management going to do about it? The bad publicity they would get from forcing clubs to take crippling loans or to incur debts for no benefit would be devastating for football.

Hopefully the worry is over a situation that will not happen.


NL vote to carry on and NLN/S end season now is best outcome. It preserves promotion/ relegation from EFL as well
Fuck off, you pompous twat. Do you have any comment on the fact you claimed that the clubs were to blame for this situation, and were then shown to be utterly wrong and simply attempting to make a childish point in order to further your pathetic agenda?

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by spen666 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:08 pm

Richie_darlo wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:10 pm
spen666 wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:31 pm
LoidLucan wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:43 am
It seems a crazy situation that a club like ours could effectively be forced into taking out crippling loans to carry on playing football in empty grounds with revenue streams cut off with no testing regime during a deadly pandemic. Our financial wellbeing could be effectively decided by clubs like Solihull Moors who have stated that they have more than enough cash from their bankrollers to continue playing without crowds for the rest of the season and beyond if required. Their huge payroll includes £4,000 a week man Adam Rooney. It truly is a mad, mad world.
Why would NL clubs want NLN/NLS to continue? If NLN/S are allowed to vote on their continuing, its likely (hopefully) that the majority would vote to end season now. This would mean there is no relegation from the NL ( even if that continues). Therefore I would expect any side at risk of relegation from NL vote for resolution 1 allowing NLN/S to vote on their own future.

If I am wrong on the above, then if decision is for NLN/S to continue, what at the NL going to do is all or most dissenting clubs refuse to play. Say for example 8 or more clubs in NLN or same in NLS refuse to play on, what are NL Management going to do about it? The bad publicity they would get from forcing clubs to take crippling loans or to incur debts for no benefit would be devastating for football.

Hopefully the worry is over a situation that will not happen.


NL vote to carry on and NLN/S end season now is best outcome. It preserves promotion/ relegation from EFL as well
Fuck off, you pompous twat. Do you have any comment on the fact you claimed that the clubs were to blame for this situation, and were then shown to be utterly wrong and simply attempting to make a childish point in order to further your pathetic agenda?

You may have a differing opinion, but the fact remains:

The clubs voted to start the season with only 3 months funding agreed.

The clubs could have said no season unless proper funding is agreed. They for whatever reason chose not to do that and now find themselves in this current situation

So, yes I do say the clubs have to shoulder some of the blame for the current mess



PS, I'm so sorry that you are such a snowflake you have to resort to swearing merely because someone dares to hold a different opinion to you, and no, I have no plans to go anywhere

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by Richie_darlo » Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:30 pm

I don't "have to resort to swearing" because someone holds a different opinion to me, pal. I choose to swear at you, because you're a pompous conniving arsehole.

The clubs did not vote to start the season. They were instructed to start the season by the league. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. You made up a different set of facts purely in an attempt to further your childish agenda that supporter ownership is somehow a bad thing, and it's better to be bankrolled like Spennymoor. That's compounded by the fact that you won't actually admit that Spennymoor are bankrolled. It's pathetic, it's childish, and it says a lot more about you than it does about me.

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by LoidLucan » Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:23 pm

He has a real problem with facts... especially when they are of the seven-figure variety!

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by My opinion » Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:37 pm

The national League will carry on. There is no question about that.
They have already had nearly 3 times as much funding from the grants than the north and south clubs have had, in addition they have income from BT.
Financially they are doing loads better than the North and South leagues who at this moment in time are a distraction from their season.

I would not be surprised that when this is sorted out and North and South leagues are stopped altogether for this season, there will be extra monies found by the league and given as grants to all National League teams to enable them to complete the season..

I wouldn't trust that management committee to organise the proverbial piss up in a brewery.

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by joejaques » Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:29 pm

My opinion wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:37 pm
I wouldn't trust that management committee to organise the proverbial piss up in a brewery.
Of course they could organise it. But the bus would only be big enough for themselves and the NL owners. :roll:
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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by Darlofan97 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:37 pm

spen666 wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:08 pm
Richie_darlo wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:10 pm
spen666 wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:31 pm
LoidLucan wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:43 am
It seems a crazy situation that a club like ours could effectively be forced into taking out crippling loans to carry on playing football in empty grounds with revenue streams cut off with no testing regime during a deadly pandemic. Our financial wellbeing could be effectively decided by clubs like Solihull Moors who have stated that they have more than enough cash from their bankrollers to continue playing without crowds for the rest of the season and beyond if required. Their huge payroll includes £4,000 a week man Adam Rooney. It truly is a mad, mad world.
Why would NL clubs want NLN/NLS to continue? If NLN/S are allowed to vote on their continuing, its likely (hopefully) that the majority would vote to end season now. This would mean there is no relegation from the NL ( even if that continues). Therefore I would expect any side at risk of relegation from NL vote for resolution 1 allowing NLN/S to vote on their own future.

If I am wrong on the above, then if decision is for NLN/S to continue, what at the NL going to do is all or most dissenting clubs refuse to play. Say for example 8 or more clubs in NLN or same in NLS refuse to play on, what are NL Management going to do about it? The bad publicity they would get from forcing clubs to take crippling loans or to incur debts for no benefit would be devastating for football.

Hopefully the worry is over a situation that will not happen.


NL vote to carry on and NLN/S end season now is best outcome. It preserves promotion/ relegation from EFL as well
Fuck off, you pompous twat. Do you have any comment on the fact you claimed that the clubs were to blame for this situation, and were then shown to be utterly wrong and simply attempting to make a childish point in order to further your pathetic agenda?

You may have a differing opinion, but the fact remains:

The clubs voted to start the season with only 3 months funding agreed.

The clubs could have said no season unless proper funding is agreed. They for whatever reason chose not to do that and now find themselves in this current situation

So, yes I do say the clubs have to shoulder some of the blame for the current mess



PS, I'm so sorry that you are such a snowflake you have to resort to swearing merely because someone dares to hold a different opinion to you, and no, I have no plans to go anywhere
Clubs didn’t vote to start the season.

They were instructed that the league would commence by the National League, who sourced the funding.

This has been pointed out to you two/three times now, but you keep on ignoring it.

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by lo36789 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:38 pm

My opinion wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:37 pm
The national League will carry on. There is no question about that.
They have already had nearly 3 times as much funding from the grants than the north and south clubs have had, in addition they have income from BT.
Financially they are doing loads better than the North and South leagues who at this moment in time are a distraction from their season.
I really think you are significantly under estimating the costs to operate at NL level. The reason they are ok to carry on is due to the deep pockets of many of the owners.

The grants for the first three months won't have provided a big buffer that they can use for the rest of the season.

Case in point. Wrexham usually have annual gate receipts of £1.1m with turnover of £4.1million. A grant which would equate to £855k per season really isn't going to leave them with loads of spare change on their committed expenditure - but they have rich owners.

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by My opinion » Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:57 pm

They chose that as their budget.
Other clubs like Altrincham, have a more manageable budget.
That aside, they will still see the glory that promotion could bring rather than the reality of the debt that will fall to most of them.

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by onewayup » Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:50 pm

If the vote is rigged against NLN/S which it is, heavily waited against, the NLN/S could take a number of actions which will stop the playing of games, legal action being one of them as you cannot force someone to take a loan which leads to insolvency. That is illegal, which then opens a minefield for the FA. When it came to light about the original distribution of the original funding i believe the FA should have had the national leagues management accountable, then maybe the problems may have been nipped in the bud before any serious damage was conducted. It's been one almighty cockup from the start. People and communities are sickened by the national leagues actions.

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:13 pm

To me the big question is what happens if the league tries to force clubs against their will to take out loans?

There's been a lot of balls up and unfairness with this issue but leaving that to one side surely forcing us to play when we can't make any money is wrong in so many ways, and of course carries risk for the players and volunteers.

If the worst comes to the worst clubs must be allowed to pull out of the league temporarily with no sanctions at all. To do my little bit I wrote to Peter Gibson MP about this particular point. He did offer up a short reply but I'm not allowed to share it :eh:
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by lo36789 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:53 pm

My opinion wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:57 pm
They chose that as their budget.
Other clubs like Altrincham, have a more manageable budget.
That aside, they will still see the glory that promotion could bring rather than the reality of the debt that will fall to most of them.
Like Altrincham who are part time and were EvoStik two seasons ago and don't usually average 4,500 fans plus hosting all sorts of events in their stadium.

I assume that Wrexham should have known all about the impending pandemic in July 2019 when they put some players on contacts which lasted to this season?

The point is. The clubs in NL are not sat there on piles of cash because they got more money from grants. They will have burned through that at a similar rate to what NLN/S clubs have.

They are saved by the fact many have owners behind them who can probably stomach the interest for 20 years on top of existing loans to them. And actually will they even be around in the future when the capital repayments is called in.

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by quaker4life » Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:11 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:13 pm
To me the big question is what happens if the league tries to force clubs against their will to take out loans?

There's been a lot of balls up and unfairness with this issue but leaving that to one side surely forcing us to play when we can't make any money is wrong in so many ways, and of course carries risk for the players and volunteers.

If the worst comes to the worst clubs must be allowed to pull out of the league temporarily with no sanctions at all. To do my little bit I wrote to Peter Gibson MP about this particular point. He did offer up a short reply but I'm not allowed to share it :eh:
Unfortunately I can't see the National League providing an a la carte menu and allowing clubs to pick and choose when they play it would throw the league into more chaos than its already in.

If there is a majority vote to continue the season those clubs opposed to taking on loans are going to face some very difficult decisions as they will surely be expected to complete the season. Refusal to play and failure to fulfil fixtures will likely result in points deductions, fines and eventually expulsion the only other realistic alternative beyond that is resignation.

Commonsense must prevail here.
love it! wrote:Considering we are Darlington 1883 I'm happy that we are named correctly

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Re: League restarts 6 February

Post by My opinion » Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:16 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:53 pm
My opinion wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:57 pm
They chose that as their budget.
Other clubs like Altrincham, have a more manageable budget.
That aside, they will still see the glory that promotion could bring rather than the reality of the debt that will fall to most of them.
Like Altrincham who are part time and were EvoStik two seasons ago and don't usually average 4,500 fans plus hosting all sorts of events in their stadium.

I assume that Wrexham should have known all about the impending pandemic in July 2019 when they put some players on contacts which lasted to this season?

The point is. The clubs in NL are not sat there on piles of cash because they got more money from grants. They will have burned through that at a similar rate to what NLN/S clubs have.

They are saved by the fact many have owners behind them who can probably stomach the interest for 20 years on top of existing loans to them. And actually will they even be around in the future when the capital repayments is called in.
My point is (and you know this, that is why you took an extreme example in Wrexham) is that all the clubs in the National have looked after themselves throughout this season at the expense of the lower 2 leagues.
And Wrexham did know about the pandemic. when this season started.
Other clubs in that league are quids in through getting nearly 3 times as much money as North and South. Plus tv revenue from BT/
I still think the management will look after themselves and that North and South are a hindrance to them.

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