That penalty

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darlo_baron
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Re: That penalty

Post by darlo_baron » Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:07 am

The Wheatley yellow card is never a caution or even a foul.

If the rules of the game supposedly now dictate that a challenge of that quality is now "reckless" then we might as well pack it in and watch basketball.

As mentioned earlier, there is also a complete lack of transparency over how referees justify their decisions and the rules are inconsistently applied every week. There is a zero transparency for clubs, players or fans as to how these rules are applied and no real obvious consequence, from the outside looking in, for referees when they make poor decisions.

It absolutely does come across as a secret society, which closes ranks at the hint of criticism. Especially at the top end of the game, managers and players have to come out after games to justify their decisions immediately after a game, but referees can walk away without any explanation, despite often having a major influence on a game.

The 5 minute period the referee had on Saturday could have changed the entire dynamic of the game and the club and supporters have no idea how he justified these decisions.

Wheatley puts similar tackles in every week, without being cautioned, so how is he supposed to approach future games knowing where the line is, in the minds of referees. It is completely inconsistent and utterly frustrating.
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Re: That penalty

Post by JE93 » Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:41 am

Darlofan97 wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:22 pm
Wheatley's tackle: Yellow card was the right call. I winced a little when he flew in. Rightly or wrongly, you're asking for trouble when you go in like that, whether you win the ball or not!

Penalty decision: Probably one of the worst decisions I've seen at this level (and I've seen a few!). Hits Hunt on the bicep, arm is by his side and no attempt of a deliberate motion towards the ball. Can only think the referee was in two minds about sending Wheatley off and wanted to 'level it up'.

Tackle on Sousa: Non-starter really. Poor attempt, but Sousa managed to get over it well. Any proper contact and it would have been a yellow.
Surely whether you take down the opponent or miss has absolutely no relevance to whether a tackle was overly aggressive. It would have relevance if it was for denying a promising attack, similar to what their long haired lad received his yellow for, for tripping Wheatley on halfway. But I fail to see how the lunge their no.7 made on Sousa was any different to the aggression in the challenge put in by Wheatley. Wheatley won the ball fairly cleanly but was penalised for his tackle being overly aggressive, so when the referee has recognised an offence in the build up to the Sousa goal why hasn't he followed it up with a booking for their No.7?

Just my opinion, but if you offer a booking for one the other has to be a booking as well.

Image

Image

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Re: That penalty

Post by Darlofan97 » Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:53 am

They’re both completely different types of challenges that had different outcomes.

Both calls the referee got right. Maybe there was a chance Wheatley could have got away with it, but it’s in the category of I can see why the referee has done what he did.

And, the truth of it really is, does the challenge on Sousa really, really matter? Sousa jumped over the challenge, there was little contact & the referee played a good advantage. I couldn’t care less if their player received a booking or not.

The biggest talking point was the penalty, which was an appalling decision.

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Re: That penalty

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:59 am

The penalty decision looks ridiculous on the highlights.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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lo36789
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Re: That penalty

Post by lo36789 » Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:14 am

darlo_baron wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:07 am
Especially at the top end of the game, managers and players have to come out after games to justify their decisions immediately after a game, but referees can walk away without any explanation, despite often having a major influence on a game.
Not really true is it. Justify their decisions.

How many times has Allison been asked since yesterday "why did you pass the ball where you did". How many times have players been asked to explain why they didn't mark a player etc.

How many times has a manager been asked "why did you make this specific change / decision"

Media interviews for players are asked what they thought of what happened and for their opinion of games they are very very rarely asked to justify their decisions.

Ray starts every interview with "So Alun a frustrating / pleasing result today, what are your thoughts?" if the line of questioning would be the same at match officials please tell me what you would get out of it.

The real point and it's not going to be a popular one. Referees aren't accountable to fans of teams to justify to them what they did. They are accountable to their bosses and their performance review. The PGMOL is accountable to the FA and PL as their funding / performance is assessed by them.

Clubs mark officials on every game and are able to ask from the PGMOL for feedback on any decision. That is the accountability loop. Clubs decide on match official fees.

York City demanded that match officials be full time match officials and then voted to pay them £60 a game.

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Re: That penalty

Post by lo36789 » Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:15 am

JE93 wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:41 am
Darlofan97 wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:22 pm
Wheatley's tackle: Yellow card was the right call. I winced a little when he flew in. Rightly or wrongly, you're asking for trouble when you go in like that, whether you win the ball or not!

Penalty decision: Probably one of the worst decisions I've seen at this level (and I've seen a few!). Hits Hunt on the bicep, arm is by his side and no attempt of a deliberate motion towards the ball. Can only think the referee was in two minds about sending Wheatley off and wanted to 'level it up'.

Tackle on Sousa: Non-starter really. Poor attempt, but Sousa managed to get over it well. Any proper contact and it would have been a yellow.
Surely whether you take down the opponent or miss has absolutely no relevance to whether a tackle was overly aggressive. It would have relevance if it was for denying a promising attack, similar to what their long haired lad received his yellow for, for tripping Wheatley on halfway. But I fail to see how the lunge their no.7 made on Sousa was any different to the aggression in the challenge put in by Wheatley. Wheatley won the ball fairly cleanly but was penalised for his tackle being overly aggressive, so when the referee has recognised an offence in the build up to the Sousa goal why hasn't he followed it up with a booking for their No.7?

Just my opinion, but if you offer a booking for one the other has to be a booking as well.

Image

Image
Go on screenshot the Wheatley challenge side by side with that at point of contact with the ball and show them to be the same challenge. Immediately consideration as to the position of the trailing leg.

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: That penalty

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:20 am

lo36789 wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:14 am
York City demanded that match officials be full time match officials and then voted to pay them £60 a game.
When was this? 1983?
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

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Re: That penalty

Post by lo36789 » Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:20 am

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:20 am
lo36789 wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:14 am
York City demanded that match officials be full time match officials and then voted to pay them £60 a game.
When was this? 1983?
Season before last. The fees were £57 at the time.

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Re: That penalty

Post by JE93 » Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:35 am

I have never said them to be the same challenges as in identical, but they are both lunging challenges and both you and '97 have said in previous posts that the outcome of the Wheatley challenge was irrelevant, it was the force with which he went into the challenge which earned him a yellow. Looking at the first angle on that still there is every argument that had their no.7 connected with his challenge he could have caused Sousa harm and at the point he is in that challenge he has no way of pulling out once he realises he can't win the ball and may take Sousa out.

Look it didn't change the outcome of the game. But if we are asking for consistency, I don't see why one lunge should be treated differently from the other. In one tackle the player missed, in the other, the tackling player actually took the ball fairly cleanly but was judged to have been overly aggressive in trying to win the ball. The outcome of both tackles was irrelevant if your applying the 'overly aggressive' element.

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Re: That penalty

Post by lo36789 » Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:39 am

And as I think we both said - could have been argued either way.

I think the key difference if you want a distinction is Wheatley leaves the ground and the trajectory of the challenge is different.

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Re: That penalty

Post by Spratts corner » Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:29 am

Omar Bogle (Sheffield United) did the same tackle yesterday and also followed through and caught the Chelsea player with the same force if not more than Wheatley. Guess what? NO BOOKING

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Re: That penalty

Post by lo36789 » Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:47 am

Guess what. People in different situations from different angles, at different times, at different places make different decisions.

On Saturday, Johnny Saltmer received a backpass from one of our players and kicked it long. On Sunday Alison received a backpass from his team mate.

Guess what? He tried to pass to his team mate instead.

Would it shock you to know that in the same game the same action made in the 5th minute might be handled differently than if it were the 65th minute. And that would be identified as being best practise. In fact two players from the same team could make a similar tackle in the space of 2 minutes and one would get cautioned and the other one wouldn't.

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Re: That penalty

Post by darlo_baron » Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:13 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:14 am
darlo_baron wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:07 am
Especially at the top end of the game, managers and players have to come out after games to justify their decisions immediately after a game, but referees can walk away without any explanation, despite often having a major influence on a game.
Not really true is it. Justify their decisions.

How many times has Allison been asked since yesterday "why did you pass the ball where you did". How many times have players been asked to explain why they didn't mark a player etc.

How many times has a manager been asked "why did you make this specific change / decision"

Media interviews for players are asked what they thought of what happened and for their opinion of games they are very very rarely asked to justify their decisions.

Ray starts every interview with "So Alun a frustrating / pleasing result today, what are your thoughts?" if the line of questioning would be the same at match officials please tell me what you would get out of it.

The real point and it's not going to be a popular one. Referees aren't accountable to fans of teams to justify to them what they did. They are accountable to their bosses and their performance review. The PGMOL is accountable to the FA and PL as their funding / performance is assessed by them.

Clubs mark officials on every game and are able to ask from the PGMOL for feedback on any decision. That is the accountability loop. Clubs decide on match official fees.

York City demanded that match officials be full time match officials and then voted to pay them £60 a game.
Manager's are consistently asked for insight into the decisions leading into games and post-match. Occasionally this has caused friction between the interviewer and interviewee, at the top end of the game. It is a perfectly reasonable expectation to expect some level of explanation from match officials regarding their decision making, with the pressures that face clubs at every level to produce results. Currently that is non-existent.

Football is a public game, followed by millions who are financially and emotionally invested in their clubs. Nobody has a clue how referees are assessed, or held accountable for poor games, as it is all internal. Again, how does Joe Wheatley now approach tackles in the future? One week that challenge is fine, the next he's getting cautioned or sent off. Does he stay on his feet forever now?

The professionalism of referees is a separate debate entirely and relates in no way to accountability. Personally, I think attempts to attract ex-professionals to become officials would drive the standard higher, as they would have a players understanding of the game. How that is done is a separate issue to the current standard of referees.
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Re: That penalty

Post by lo36789 » Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:22 pm

darlo_baron wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:13 pm
The professionalism of referees is a separate debate entirely and relates in no way to accountability. Personally, I think attempts to attract ex-professionals to become officials would drive the standard higher, as they would have a players understanding of the game. How that is done is a separate issue to the current standard of referees.
They tried. There are dedicated attempts to do it. Not worth the hassle for the return is the response. Especially as they aren't parachuted into top level they are asked to do games at a lower level first and they basically don't fancy it (very similar parallels with management)

To be fair a number of officials are ex-pro, and many are ex-academy players. Certainly in the PL. Those that I know Michael Oliver, Jon Moss and Rob Jones are all ex-academy players.

It's about £100k a year to be a Premier League referee. Try and convince any players who have been earning three times that in a week to referee in retirement "no thanks".

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Re: That penalty

Post by lo36789 » Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:04 pm

darlo_baron wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:13 pm
It is a perfectly reasonable expectation to expect some level of explanation from match officials regarding their decision making.
"From my position in the split second that I had to make a decision I thought I saw this"

"Well that isn't what the replay from the other side of the stadium saw in slow motion on the 30th viewing"

"No I imagine that it isn't"

Value add.

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Re: That penalty

Post by lo36789 » Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:09 pm

darlo_baron wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:13 pm
Football is a public game, followed by millions who are financially and emotionally invested in their clubs.
It is actually a multi-billion pound private enterprise in most cases.

How many clubs / institutions are actually publicly owned?

Don't pretend it is more romantic than it actually is.
darlo_baron wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:13 pm
Again, how does Joe Wheatley now approach tackles in the future? One week that challenge is fine, the next he's getting cautioned or sent off. Does he stay on his feet forever now?
Joe Wheatley doesnt find out from a TV interview.

He can go and speak to the referee at any time during the game or 20 minutes afterward. The club can request feedback post match or in their club comments and they will get a response including asking for the match official to add their perspectives.

Many clubs will call match officials during the week to discuss incidents and if referee gets a decision wrong after having a chance to review footage will usually call the manager to apologise.

Joe Wheatley already knows he cannot leave the ground without risking a caution it was a completely accepted caution from our players - their concern was that the referee would be influenced to a red card.

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Re: That penalty

Post by darlo_baron » Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:01 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:09 pm
darlo_baron wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:13 pm
Football is a public game, followed by millions who are financially and emotionally invested in their clubs.
It is actually a multi-billion pound private enterprise in most cases.

How many clubs / institutions are actually publicly owned?

Don't pretend it is more romantic than it actually is.
darlo_baron wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:13 pm
Again, how does Joe Wheatley now approach tackles in the future? One week that challenge is fine, the next he's getting cautioned or sent off. Does he stay on his feet forever now?
Joe Wheatley doesnt find out from a TV interview.

He can go and speak to the referee at any time during the game or 20 minutes afterward. The club can request feedback post match or in their club comments and they will get a response including asking for the match official to add their perspectives.

Many clubs will call match officials during the week to discuss incidents and if referee gets a decision wrong after having a chance to review footage will usually call the manager to apologise.

Joe Wheatley already knows he cannot leave the ground without risking a caution it was a completely accepted caution from our players - their concern was that the referee would be influenced to a red card.
Nobody is romanticising football. The fact remains that the sport is the most popular in the world and is constantly in the public eye. Players, managers and clubs are constantly under pressure. This is not helped by incompetent officiating every week.

How on earth are you claiming you know that is an accepted caution from our players? Considering our manager said it was a perfectly fair challenge in his PMI would suggest it is not the view of the management, at the very least. I highly doubt any footballer would think that is a poor challenge.
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Re: That penalty

Post by lo36789 » Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:43 pm

darlo_baron wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:01 pm
How on earth are you claiming you know that is an accepted caution from our players? Considering our manager said it was a perfectly fair challenge in his PMI would suggest it is not the view of the management, at the very least. I highly doubt any footballer would think that is a poor challenge.
Look at his reaction - he tries to disappear to avoid sanction.

Wealdstone wanted red, and as I understand it have submitted comments on why it wasn't - the question asked of the referee was what he saw and why not red also.

Response along lines of whilst there was a lunge with a straight leg off the ground but since it was relatively low it didn't actually endanger opponent safety, it just showed disregard, and was therefore only reckless.

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Re: That penalty

Post by My opinion » Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:46 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:43 pm
darlo_baron wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:01 pm
How on earth are you claiming you know that is an accepted caution from our players? Considering our manager said it was a perfectly fair challenge in his PMI would suggest it is not the view of the management, at the very least. I highly doubt any footballer would think that is a poor challenge.
Look at his reaction - he tries to disappear to avoid sanction.

Wealdstone wanted red, and as I understand it have submitted comments on why it wasn't - the question asked of the referee was what he saw and why not red also.

Response along lines of whilst there was a lunge with a straight leg off the ground but since it was relatively low it didn't actually endanger opponent safety, it just showed disregard, and was therefore only reckless.
Darlington wanted no card at all. I understand they have submitted comments as to why it was...The question asked of the referee was to what he saw and why a yellow...
It is very easy to play that game to try and prove a point.

I have just watched the highlights again. I am interested on what your comments are about the tackle by Storey, his "lunge" looked very similar to Wheatley's, and it is debatable if he made contact with the ball.

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Re: That penalty

Post by lo36789 » Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:23 pm

Storey blocked the ball out of play for a corner?

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Re: That penalty

Post by My opinion » Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:54 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:23 pm
Storey blocked the ball out of play for a corner?
Yes, that's what the commentators said until they saw the replay. Then they thought that he didn't make any contact with the ball
However. That was not my point. (and once again you know this).
My point was, did he consider "what if the player changes direction and I end up tackling him rather than the ball, could it injure him" i
After all it's the law. Tackling without consideration for the safety of an opponent is a caution - by the laws of the game.
Your words not mine

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Re: That penalty

Post by HarryCharltonsCat » Mon Feb 08, 2021 6:02 pm

Be interesting if the tackle had been on Wheatley rather than him making it whether the views would be the same.

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Re: That penalty

Post by loan_star » Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:34 pm

HarryCharltonsCat wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 6:02 pm
Be interesting if the tackle had been on Wheatley rather than him making it whether the views would be the same.
I'd say exactly the same, the ball was won cleanly, not a foul in any sense of the word.

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Re: That penalty

Post by lo36789 » Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:45 pm

My opinion wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:54 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:23 pm
Storey blocked the ball out of play for a corner?
Yes, that's what the commentators said until they saw the replay. Then they thought that he didn't make any contact with the ball
However. That was not my point. (and once again you know this).
My point was, did he consider "what if the player changes direction and I end up tackling him rather than the ball, could it injure him" i
After all it's the law. Tackling without consideration for the safety of an opponent is a caution - by the laws of the game.
Your words not mine
Yep. I don't believe that that challenge showed a disregard for the safety of his opponent. Not my words - the letter of law.

Storey is heading away from his opponent there was no risk at all. The momentum / weight of the challenge is completely different.

I can't actually believe it's a debate it is probably one of the more nailed on cautions I've seen. If you still the point that Wheatley makes contact with the ball it's an awful way to make a challenge especially when you consider the opponent was moving towards that point.

Replace the ball in that image with an opponent's standing leg and see if you still feel the same about it.

I just think the difference between these three is quite obvious. When you consider weight distribution and the trailing leg.

Image

Image

Image

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Re: That penalty

Post by My opinion » Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:51 pm

No, sorry but you haven't convinced me.
Both players went for the ball with outstretched legs, I actually think the Wheatley tackle was the cleaner of the two.
Though in my opinion both were tackles and neither was a foul.
.

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Re: That penalty

Post by lo36789 » Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:11 pm

Was never going to.

If you can look at those images and genuinley not see a difference - and see an issue with the technique on Wheatley's tackle you never will be.

I just hope no opponent does that near one of our players who nudges the ball just before so the contact is on their ankle instead.

I strongly suspect the view point will be different in those circumstances.

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Re: That penalty

Post by don'tbuythesun » Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:43 pm

There's always different opinions after incidents and even greater debate with slow motion replay and frozen shots. Just look at the debate around VAR and still opinions differ. I think at our level we expect too much from referees sometimes and think they should have eyes in the back of their heads. Unless you've actually refereed a game at any level it's hard to understand how tricky it is!

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Re: That penalty

Post by Darlopj » Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:37 am

First chance I've had to see Wheatley's booking.

Given it was a Darlo player and the comments I've read so far, I was expecting it to be a borderline booking.

Not even a borderline foul. If our resident referees' friend wants defend the decision, or at least justify it, that's his call but he's starting to make a fool of himself.

At some point in this thread he made the point about setting a benchmark so players new where they stood (or something to that effect).

Well Storey, Liddle and their defender that tried to tackle Sousa clearly missed that memo.

And don't get me started on the penalty.

Someone suggested he was trying to even things up for not sending Wheatley off.

Words fail me as far as that comment goes.

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Re: That penalty

Post by lo36789 » Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:20 am

If anything it does show. A disclosed rationale as to why a decision was made will have no effect on fan opinion.

The idea that these words being said to a camera / in a statement afterwards will change anything is laughable.

As I used to say in my pre-match to managers, captains and secretaries.

"I will get some stuff wrong, and I am more than happy to discuss it in here afterwards if you ask in the right way. If you run at me shouting with your arms in the air I won't respond. I will just shut the door.

That said;
- it won't change the outcome
- we won't be restarting play from that point of the game
- you probably still won't agree with me

But it will be an honest reflection on what I saw"

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Re: That penalty

Post by andydarlo » Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:53 am

Back to the penalty, and interested to get lo's take on this....
Was it made less easy for the ref due to both players (and several others) having white long-sleeved skins beneath their shirts plus both kits having white sleeves?

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