Can’t wait for the next installment of dorking tv. Going to be good.
Let’s play Dorking bingo. Full house for Northern Clubs, integrity, commercial partners, competition, play on, disgraceful....
Can’t wait for the next installment of dorking tv. Going to be good.
I have many times you lost me regards sherry?theoriginalfatcat wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:57 pmDorking make me chuckle If you've ever been there you'll know what I mean.
Sherry?
Yep, no idea how setting up a mini-league affects the league’s integrity, any more than PPG or null and void. It’s a nonsense phrase that translates as “We didn’t want the hassle”.lo36789 wrote:I am not really sure how the integrity of the competition would have been damaged if given the circumstances clubs that wanted to play on had.
I would actually argue that the removal of threat of relegation from the division above is more damaging to the integrity of the National League than the alternative but I wasn't really that bothered as long as it didn't affect us.
Well Sherry, as in drinking Harvey's bristol Creme after the walk back from the station. Dorking doesn't strike me as a footballing kind of town.bga wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:26 pmI have many times you lost me regards sherry?theoriginalfatcat wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:57 pmDorking make me chuckle If you've ever been there you'll know what I mean.
Sherry?
After a couple of pints of Harvey's Bristol, walking is not an option. No wonder the Dorking boss has few functioning brain cells left.theoriginalfatcat wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:32 pmWell Sherry, as in drinking Harvey's bristol Creme after the walk back from the station. Dorking doesn't strike me as a footballing kind of town.bga wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:26 pmI have many times you lost me regards sherry?theoriginalfatcat wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:57 pmDorking make me chuckle If you've ever been there you'll know what I mean.
Sherry?
I’d say it does affect the integrity of the league.Darlogramps wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:54 pmYep, no idea how setting up a mini-league affects the league’s integrity, any more than PPG or null and void. It’s a nonsense phrase that translates as “We didn’t want the hassle”.lo36789 wrote:I am not really sure how the integrity of the competition would have been damaged if given the circumstances clubs that wanted to play on had.
I would actually argue that the removal of threat of relegation from the division above is more damaging to the integrity of the National League than the alternative but I wasn't really that bothered as long as it didn't affect us.
So long as those teams not taking part aren’t unfairly inconvenienced, I don’t see how it does.
Onewayup also doesn’t realise it was the FA, not the National League who made the ruling today. But that’s about par for the course with him.
I agree a majority vote should be upheld.Darlofan97 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:13 amI’d say it does affect the integrity of the league.Darlogramps wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:54 pmYep, no idea how setting up a mini-league affects the league’s integrity, any more than PPG or null and void. It’s a nonsense phrase that translates as “We didn’t want the hassle”.lo36789 wrote:I am not really sure how the integrity of the competition would have been damaged if given the circumstances clubs that wanted to play on had.
I would actually argue that the removal of threat of relegation from the division above is more damaging to the integrity of the National League than the alternative but I wasn't really that bothered as long as it didn't affect us.
So long as those teams not taking part aren’t unfairly inconvenienced, I don’t see how it does.
Onewayup also doesn’t realise it was the FA, not the National League who made the ruling today. But that’s about par for the course with him.
The league held a vote throughout its divisions that concluded with an outcome of N&V for Step 2. That had to be respected.
What you can’t then have, is those that didn’t like the result, setting up their own mini-league driven by their own agendas. It would set a dangerous and worrying precedent if the FA allowed it.
The right decision has been made.
I agree Dorking is very much a "Home counties South" town (one for the order posters there). Having said that it does have some really good old fashioned pubs along the main street.theoriginalfatcat wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:32 pmWell Sherry, as in drinking Harvey's bristol Creme after the walk back from the station. Dorking doesn't strike me as a footballing kind of town.bga wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:26 pmI have many times you lost me regards sherry?theoriginalfatcat wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:57 pmDorking make me chuckle If you've ever been there you'll know what I mean.
Sherry?
I don’t agree.Darlofan97 wrote:I’d say it does affect the integrity of the league.Darlogramps wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:54 pmYep, no idea how setting up a mini-league affects the league’s integrity, any more than PPG or null and void. It’s a nonsense phrase that translates as “We didn’t want the hassle”.lo36789 wrote:I am not really sure how the integrity of the competition would have been damaged if given the circumstances clubs that wanted to play on had.
I would actually argue that the removal of threat of relegation from the division above is more damaging to the integrity of the National League than the alternative but I wasn't really that bothered as long as it didn't affect us.
So long as those teams not taking part aren’t unfairly inconvenienced, I don’t see how it does.
Onewayup also doesn’t realise it was the FA, not the National League who made the ruling today. But that’s about par for the course with him.
The league held a vote throughout its divisions that concluded with an outcome of N&V for Step 2. That had to be respected.
What you can’t then have, is those that didn’t like the result, setting up their own mini-league driven by their own agendas. It would set a dangerous and worrying precedent if the FA allowed it.
The right decision has been made.
I just can't see how it *doesn't* affect the integrity of the competition when a vote has been held and the result was N&V.Darlogramps wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:15 amI don’t agree.Darlofan97 wrote:I’d say it does affect the integrity of the league.Darlogramps wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:54 pmYep, no idea how setting up a mini-league affects the league’s integrity, any more than PPG or null and void. It’s a nonsense phrase that translates as “We didn’t want the hassle”.lo36789 wrote:I am not really sure how the integrity of the competition would have been damaged if given the circumstances clubs that wanted to play on had.
I would actually argue that the removal of threat of relegation from the division above is more damaging to the integrity of the National League than the alternative but I wasn't really that bothered as long as it didn't affect us.
So long as those teams not taking part aren’t unfairly inconvenienced, I don’t see how it does.
Onewayup also doesn’t realise it was the FA, not the National League who made the ruling today. But that’s about par for the course with him.
The league held a vote throughout its divisions that concluded with an outcome of N&V for Step 2. That had to be respected.
What you can’t then have, is those that didn’t like the result, setting up their own mini-league driven by their own agendas. It would set a dangerous and worrying precedent if the FA allowed it.
The right decision has been made.
The vote was to null and void National League North and South. That would have happened. No one was suggesting carrying on NLN/NLS.
It’s fundamentally dishonest to say a new mini-league would have meant not honouring the original vote.
I also have no problem with sides acting in their own interests. We’re doing exactly the same. So long as clubs are honest about their reasons, I have no problem.
What I don’t like though is the FA and the mini-league’s opponents hiding behind this “integrity of the league” nonsense. It’s a vague, meaningless phrase that people trot out when they have no other argument.
If you want to talk about integrity of the vote, the NLS actually voted to carry on. It’s an odd form of democracy that allows a league to vote in favour of carrying but still demands they finish.
Darlington’s vested interest, along with other sides who also justifiably didn’t want to carry on, has meant sides in a different league can’t get promoted.
I still haven’t seen a valid reason why clubs who can carry on, should be prevented from doing so.
Good points made well. The National League structure allows for teams to be promoted from NLS NLN. It does not allow (now confirmed by the FA) for a mini league of 16 clubs with ridiculous rules regarding points and where matches are to be played to be promoted.Darlofan97 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:06 amI just can't see how it *doesn't* affect the integrity of the competition when a vote has been held and the result was N&V.Darlogramps wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:15 amI don’t agree.Darlofan97 wrote:I’d say it does affect the integrity of the league.Darlogramps wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:54 pmYep, no idea how setting up a mini-league affects the league’s integrity, any more than PPG or null and void. It’s a nonsense phrase that translates as “We didn’t want the hassle”.lo36789 wrote:
I am not really sure how the integrity of the competition would have been damaged if given the circumstances clubs that wanted to play on had.
I would actually argue that the removal of threat of relegation from the division above is more damaging to the integrity of the National League than the alternative but I wasn't really that bothered as long as it didn't affect us.
So long as those teams not taking part aren’t unfairly inconvenienced, I don’t see how it does.
Onewayup also doesn’t realise it was the FA, not the National League who made the ruling today. But that’s about par for the course with him.
The league held a vote throughout its divisions that concluded with an outcome of N&V for Step 2. That had to be respected.
What you can’t then have, is those that didn’t like the result, setting up their own mini-league driven by their own agendas. It would set a dangerous and worrying precedent if the FA allowed it.
The right decision has been made.
The vote was to null and void National League North and South. That would have happened. No one was suggesting carrying on NLN/NLS.
It’s fundamentally dishonest to say a new mini-league would have meant not honouring the original vote.
I also have no problem with sides acting in their own interests. We’re doing exactly the same. So long as clubs are honest about their reasons, I have no problem.
What I don’t like though is the FA and the mini-league’s opponents hiding behind this “integrity of the league” nonsense. It’s a vague, meaningless phrase that people trot out when they have no other argument.
If you want to talk about integrity of the vote, the NLS actually voted to carry on. It’s an odd form of democracy that allows a league to vote in favour of carrying but still demands they finish.
Darlington’s vested interest, along with other sides who also justifiably didn’t want to carry on, has meant sides in a different league can’t get promoted.
I still haven’t seen a valid reason why clubs who can carry on, should be prevented from doing so.
It looked after our own interests, yes, but it just so happen that it looked after all of the others who voted for the same at Step 2 (i.e. the majority).
The key thing here is the vote. It made sense for Step 2 to be grouped together, as both leagues feed in to the National League. You have to group both leagues together, or not at all. You can't N&V the NLN, but not the NLS. So I certainly wouldn't say that is an odd form a democracy.
See m62's post re. what the Gloucester Chairman was explaining on BBC York. PPG, weighting lower teams "to make it interesting", home/away games decided on who is part-time or full-time, teams that voted N&V could enter the mini-league if they wanted. It's an absolute mess and no way was that ever going to pass.
Out of a matter of principle, I don't agree with the 'survival of the fittest' situation where those who can afford to take on loans will play on, set-up their own mini-league and propose new rules that would favour them (i.e. promotion slots, no relegation, PPG etc).
The null and void vote is totally irrelevant to the proposed mini-league.Darlofan97 wrote:
I just can't see how it *doesn't* affect the integrity of the competition when a vote has been held and the result was N&V.
It looked after our own interests, yes, but it just so happen that it looked after all of the others who voted for the same at Step 2 (i.e. the majority).
The key thing here is the vote. It made sense for Step 2 to be grouped together, as both leagues feed in to the National League. You have to group both leagues together, or not at all. You can't N&V the NLN, but not the NLS. So I certainly wouldn't say that is an odd form a democracy.
See m62's post re. what the Gloucester Chairman was explaining on BBC York. PPG, weighting lower teams "to make it interesting", home/away games decided on who is part-time or full-time, teams that voted N&V could enter the mini-league if they wanted. It's an absolute mess and no way was that ever going to pass.
Out of a matter of principle, I don't agree with the 'survival of the fittest' situation where those who can afford to take on loans will play on, set-up their own mini-league and propose new rules that would favour them (i.e. promotion slots, no relegation, PPG etc).
The only reason for the proposed mini-league was because of the vote, so it cannot be “totally irrelevant”.Darlogramps wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:00 pmThe null and void vote is totally irrelevant to the proposed mini-league.Darlofan97 wrote:
I just can't see how it *doesn't* affect the integrity of the competition when a vote has been held and the result was N&V.
It looked after our own interests, yes, but it just so happen that it looked after all of the others who voted for the same at Step 2 (i.e. the majority).
The key thing here is the vote. It made sense for Step 2 to be grouped together, as both leagues feed in to the National League. You have to group both leagues together, or not at all. You can't N&V the NLN, but not the NLS. So I certainly wouldn't say that is an odd form a democracy.
See m62's post re. what the Gloucester Chairman was explaining on BBC York. PPG, weighting lower teams "to make it interesting", home/away games decided on who is part-time or full-time, teams that voted N&V could enter the mini-league if they wanted. It's an absolute mess and no way was that ever going to pass.
Out of a matter of principle, I don't agree with the 'survival of the fittest' situation where those who can afford to take on loans will play on, set-up their own mini-league and propose new rules that would favour them (i.e. promotion slots, no relegation, PPG etc).
The vote was to null and void the NLN and NLS. That would still have happened. The outcome would still have been respected.
I haven’t heard the interview, but clearly the terms as outlined above around PPG and gifting points are ridiculous. That particular proposal was a joke.
However, a fairer and more sensible proposal (all teams starting on zero, maybe with two pools of eight teams and a play-off system to decide promotion), I’d have no truck with.
And this is the thing, some on here who oppose the idea of a mini-league are doing so simply because Darlington aren’t involved, and don’t want other teams to get success. It’s childish bitterness.
But trying to say a mini-league would have undermined the vote is plain wrong and dishonest. The outcome of the vote would have stood regardless. The vote and the mini-league have nothing to do with each other.
At that stage, there was no mini-league proposal. In my view, the suspension applied to the existing competitions which were being ended.bga wrote:The null and void vote is totally relevant because the vote was to end the season with no promotion. You have a view on what you believe the word "suspend" promotion meant in the official statement. I disagree and believe it was clear it means no promotion this season.
The vote applied to existing Step 2 leagues. Obviously. You can’t vote on a mini-league that hasn’t yet been proposed.Darlofan97 wrote:The only reason for the proposed mini-league was because of the vote, so it cannot be “totally irrelevant”.Darlogramps wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:00 pmThe null and void vote is totally irrelevant to the proposed mini-league.Darlofan97 wrote:
I just can't see how it *doesn't* affect the integrity of the competition when a vote has been held and the result was N&V.
It looked after our own interests, yes, but it just so happen that it looked after all of the others who voted for the same at Step 2 (i.e. the majority).
The key thing here is the vote. It made sense for Step 2 to be grouped together, as both leagues feed in to the National League. You have to group both leagues together, or not at all. You can't N&V the NLN, but not the NLS. So I certainly wouldn't say that is an odd form a democracy.
See m62's post re. what the Gloucester Chairman was explaining on BBC York. PPG, weighting lower teams "to make it interesting", home/away games decided on who is part-time or full-time, teams that voted N&V could enter the mini-league if they wanted. It's an absolute mess and no way was that ever going to pass.
Out of a matter of principle, I don't agree with the 'survival of the fittest' situation where those who can afford to take on loans will play on, set-up their own mini-league and propose new rules that would favour them (i.e. promotion slots, no relegation, PPG etc).
The vote was to null and void the NLN and NLS. That would still have happened. The outcome would still have been respected.
I haven’t heard the interview, but clearly the terms as outlined above around PPG and gifting points are ridiculous. That particular proposal was a joke.
However, a fairer and more sensible proposal (all teams starting on zero, maybe with two pools of eight teams and a play-off system to decide promotion), I’d have no truck with.
And this is the thing, some on here who oppose the idea of a mini-league are doing so simply because Darlington aren’t involved, and don’t want other teams to get success. It’s childish bitterness.
But trying to say a mini-league would have undermined the vote is plain wrong and dishonest. The outcome of the vote would have stood regardless. The vote and the mini-league have nothing to do with each other.
It’s absolutely relevant. The majority of Step 2 voted for N&V, the vote was passed (supported by the FA Alliance Committee & National League) and subsequently Step 2 ground to a halt and results declared N&V.
The proposal of a Step 2 mini-league undermined the original vote being passed (which was for all of Step 2 to be declared N&V). When is N&V actually not N&V?
For the record my views are not based on partisanship.Darlogramps wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:36 pmAt that stage, there was no mini-league proposal. In my view, the suspension applied to the existing competitions which were being ended.bga wrote:The null and void vote is totally relevant because the vote was to end the season with no promotion. You have a view on what you believe the word "suspend" promotion meant in the official statement. I disagree and believe it was clear it means no promotion this season.
The Alliance Committee even hearing the view tells you it was a possibility promotion could have applied to this mini-league. As I said, how promotion is applied is at the discretion of the National League, provided it gets approved by the FA.
Put it this way, if it was Darlington pushing for a mini-league, plenty of those opposed to this would be backing it. I believe the opposition view is based on partisanship, rather than concerns about league integrity.
Just 2 points, personally I have little sympathy for anyone who spent a shed load of money to try and buy the league when we were just a few months into a pandemic that, at that point, no-one could forecast what the outcome would be,LoidLucan wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:16 amI can see why the Dorking gadgie is furious. He's spent a fortune on his squad and stuffed it with ex-league club players in an all-out bid for promotion this year only to have it snatched away in extraordinary circumstances.
I was fairly ambivalent about this mini-league idea (as it didn't harm our club) and I think the whole reaction to the pandemic has been badly handled from the start But I can also see why the FA haven't gone along with the White/Petheram vision.
I'm sure the FA felt that cobbling together an ad-hoc league out of the remnants of those willing to play from North and South with one game against each other, a complicated formula and promotion slots at the end in a tight and difficult timescale was just totally removed from the existing set-up and without precedent. It also had major ramifications on the league above and its clubs... so probably yet another major headache that the authorities felt they could do without in a season of turmoil and upset.
I probably wouldn't have thrown in the word "integrity" given the inept way funding and other issues have been handled but it didn't surprise me that the mini league idea was rejected.
There clearly wasn't any single solution that would have been acceptable to everyone given all the conflicting interests but in all the circumstances maybe just admitting defeat to this awful virus and its ramifications for now and starting afresh at our level when things will be different was the least worst way forward. And yes probably the easiest and simplest way forward.
You don't really think this do you?EDJOHNS wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:06 pmNow weather you agree with me or not, if they had been allowed the precedent would have been set for clubs, (lets say in Cornwall as an example), to jump in and form a new league and then say we want to be placed on the same level as the Nat N&S. I do not see, if this league had been allowed, how anyone could argue against that, ie, total football anarchy.
The mini-league proposal was borne from the initial vote, that is a material impact I would say.Darlogramps wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:45 pmThe vote applied to existing Step 2 leagues. Obviously. You can’t vote on a mini-league that hasn’t yet been proposed.Darlofan97 wrote:The only reason for the proposed mini-league was because of the vote, so it cannot be “totally irrelevant”.Darlogramps wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:00 pmThe null and void vote is totally irrelevant to the proposed mini-league.Darlofan97 wrote:
I just can't see how it *doesn't* affect the integrity of the competition when a vote has been held and the result was N&V.
It looked after our own interests, yes, but it just so happen that it looked after all of the others who voted for the same at Step 2 (i.e. the majority).
The key thing here is the vote. It made sense for Step 2 to be grouped together, as both leagues feed in to the National League. You have to group both leagues together, or not at all. You can't N&V the NLN, but not the NLS. So I certainly wouldn't say that is an odd form a democracy.
See m62's post re. what the Gloucester Chairman was explaining on BBC York. PPG, weighting lower teams "to make it interesting", home/away games decided on who is part-time or full-time, teams that voted N&V could enter the mini-league if they wanted. It's an absolute mess and no way was that ever going to pass.
Out of a matter of principle, I don't agree with the 'survival of the fittest' situation where those who can afford to take on loans will play on, set-up their own mini-league and propose new rules that would favour them (i.e. promotion slots, no relegation, PPG etc).
The vote was to null and void the NLN and NLS. That would still have happened. The outcome would still have been respected.
I haven’t heard the interview, but clearly the terms as outlined above around PPG and gifting points are ridiculous. That particular proposal was a joke.
However, a fairer and more sensible proposal (all teams starting on zero, maybe with two pools of eight teams and a play-off system to decide promotion), I’d have no truck with.
And this is the thing, some on here who oppose the idea of a mini-league are doing so simply because Darlington aren’t involved, and don’t want other teams to get success. It’s childish bitterness.
But trying to say a mini-league would have undermined the vote is plain wrong and dishonest. The outcome of the vote would have stood regardless. The vote and the mini-league have nothing to do with each other.
It’s absolutely relevant. The majority of Step 2 voted for N&V, the vote was passed (supported by the FA Alliance Committee & National League) and subsequently Step 2 ground to a halt and results declared N&V.
The proposal of a Step 2 mini-league undermined the original vote being passed (which was for all of Step 2 to be declared N&V). When is N&V actually not N&V?
Therefore the resolutions of the vote can ONLY apply to the NLN/NLS. You can’t retrospectively apply the results to something that hasn’t existed when voted on.
The vote is irrelevant because it has no material impact on the mini-league. The NLN/NLS (which was what was voted on) would have remained null and void.
I just don’t see how a sensible mini-league affects anyone negatively. It would have been for one season in exceptional circumstances. No Step 2 relegation would mean clubs not taking part would not be unfairly penalised.
Interesting as I would respond "no, it wouldn't", "so?" or "you can do anything as long as approved by the NLS leagues committee" to all of these.Darlofan97 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:33 pmThere are several flaws to a simplistic 8-team per league situation as:
- The implementation of a Step 2 mini-league with promotion would render the initial vote void.
- Some NLS clubs would have to transfer to the NLN (you would have some clubs already have played each other twice this season, others none).
- The promotion places would be decided on roughly 33% of an original season being played.
- Play-offs wouldn't follow their usual format, or happen at all.
- You cannot just set-up a 'new' league mid-season.
Those are just a handful of reasons why it is a non-starter and I am sure there are many more.
Well given you can't just refuse to play games, that would set a dangerous precedent. To protect the integrity of the competition all clubs in question should receive the fines per the competition rules. I assume those above believe that is the only fair outcome really.theoriginalfatcat wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:05 pmI wonder what is happening about the clubs facing charges for not playing? Have these hearings taken place yet?