When is null & void.......

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JasonDeVos
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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by JasonDeVos » Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:45 pm

LoidLucan wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:31 pm
I guarantee that the dork from Dorking will still be whining this time next year.
Can’t wait for the next installment of dorking tv. Going to be good.

Let’s play Dorking bingo. Full house for Northern Clubs, integrity, commercial partners, competition, play on, disgraceful....

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:57 pm

Dorking make me chuckle :D If you've ever been there you'll know what I mean.

Sherry?
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by bga » Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:26 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:57 pm
Dorking make me chuckle :D If you've ever been there you'll know what I mean.

Sherry?
I have many times you lost me regards sherry?

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When is null & void.......

Post by Darlogramps » Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:54 pm

lo36789 wrote:
onewayup wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:07 pm
Absolutely the correct decision for the integrity of the national league north/south.
I am not really sure how the integrity of the competition would have been damaged if given the circumstances clubs that wanted to play on had.

I would actually argue that the removal of threat of relegation from the division above is more damaging to the integrity of the National League than the alternative but I wasn't really that bothered as long as it didn't affect us.
Yep, no idea how setting up a mini-league affects the league’s integrity, any more than PPG or null and void. It’s a nonsense phrase that translates as “We didn’t want the hassle”.

So long as those teams not taking part aren’t unfairly inconvenienced, I don’t see how it does.

Onewayup also doesn’t realise it was the FA, not the National League who made the ruling today. But that’s about par for the course with him.
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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by Vodka_Vic » Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:29 pm

So if the FA oversees the NL, any chance they could kick the current incompetents out of the NL committee?

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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by Darlo_Pete » Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:29 pm

York won't be happy, but that's fine by me & at last a common sense decision.

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:32 pm

bga wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:26 pm
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:57 pm
Dorking make me chuckle :D If you've ever been there you'll know what I mean.

Sherry?
I have many times you lost me regards sherry?
Well Sherry, as in drinking Harvey's bristol Creme after the walk back from the station. Dorking doesn't strike me as a footballing kind of town.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by Maurice_Peddelty » Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:45 am

Vodka_Vic wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:29 pm
So if the FA oversees the NL, any chance they could kick the current incompetents out of the NL committee?
I suspect that would be a matter for member clubs to determine at NL’s AGM.

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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by jjljks » Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:11 am

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:32 pm
bga wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:26 pm
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:57 pm
Dorking make me chuckle :D If you've ever been there you'll know what I mean.

Sherry?
I have many times you lost me regards sherry?
Well Sherry, as in drinking Harvey's bristol Creme after the walk back from the station. Dorking doesn't strike me as a footballing kind of town.
After a couple of pints of Harvey's Bristol, walking is not an option. No wonder the Dorking boss has few functioning brain cells left.

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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by Darlofan97 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:13 am

Darlogramps wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:54 pm
lo36789 wrote:
onewayup wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:07 pm
Absolutely the correct decision for the integrity of the national league north/south.
I am not really sure how the integrity of the competition would have been damaged if given the circumstances clubs that wanted to play on had.

I would actually argue that the removal of threat of relegation from the division above is more damaging to the integrity of the National League than the alternative but I wasn't really that bothered as long as it didn't affect us.
Yep, no idea how setting up a mini-league affects the league’s integrity, any more than PPG or null and void. It’s a nonsense phrase that translates as “We didn’t want the hassle”.

So long as those teams not taking part aren’t unfairly inconvenienced, I don’t see how it does.

Onewayup also doesn’t realise it was the FA, not the National League who made the ruling today. But that’s about par for the course with him.
I’d say it does affect the integrity of the league.

The league held a vote throughout its divisions that concluded with an outcome of N&V for Step 2. That had to be respected.

What you can’t then have, is those that didn’t like the result, setting up their own mini-league driven by their own agendas. It would set a dangerous and worrying precedent if the FA allowed it.

The right decision has been made.

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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by bga » Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:58 am

Darlofan97 wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:13 am
Darlogramps wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:54 pm
lo36789 wrote:
onewayup wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:07 pm
Absolutely the correct decision for the integrity of the national league north/south.
I am not really sure how the integrity of the competition would have been damaged if given the circumstances clubs that wanted to play on had.

I would actually argue that the removal of threat of relegation from the division above is more damaging to the integrity of the National League than the alternative but I wasn't really that bothered as long as it didn't affect us.
Yep, no idea how setting up a mini-league affects the league’s integrity, any more than PPG or null and void. It’s a nonsense phrase that translates as “We didn’t want the hassle”.

So long as those teams not taking part aren’t unfairly inconvenienced, I don’t see how it does.

Onewayup also doesn’t realise it was the FA, not the National League who made the ruling today. But that’s about par for the course with him.
I’d say it does affect the integrity of the league.

The league held a vote throughout its divisions that concluded with an outcome of N&V for Step 2. That had to be respected.

What you can’t then have, is those that didn’t like the result, setting up their own mini-league driven by their own agendas. It would set a dangerous and worrying precedent if the FA allowed it.

The right decision has been made.
I agree a majority vote should be upheld.

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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by bga » Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:01 am

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:32 pm
bga wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:26 pm
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:57 pm
Dorking make me chuckle :D If you've ever been there you'll know what I mean.

Sherry?
I have many times you lost me regards sherry?
Well Sherry, as in drinking Harvey's bristol Creme after the walk back from the station. Dorking doesn't strike me as a footballing kind of town.
I agree Dorking is very much a "Home counties South" town (one for the order posters there). Having said that it does have some really good old fashioned pubs along the main street.

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When is null & void.......

Post by Darlogramps » Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:15 am

Darlofan97 wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:54 pm
lo36789 wrote:
onewayup wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:07 pm
Absolutely the correct decision for the integrity of the national league north/south.
I am not really sure how the integrity of the competition would have been damaged if given the circumstances clubs that wanted to play on had.

I would actually argue that the removal of threat of relegation from the division above is more damaging to the integrity of the National League than the alternative but I wasn't really that bothered as long as it didn't affect us.
Yep, no idea how setting up a mini-league affects the league’s integrity, any more than PPG or null and void. It’s a nonsense phrase that translates as “We didn’t want the hassle”.

So long as those teams not taking part aren’t unfairly inconvenienced, I don’t see how it does.

Onewayup also doesn’t realise it was the FA, not the National League who made the ruling today. But that’s about par for the course with him.
I’d say it does affect the integrity of the league.

The league held a vote throughout its divisions that concluded with an outcome of N&V for Step 2. That had to be respected.

What you can’t then have, is those that didn’t like the result, setting up their own mini-league driven by their own agendas. It would set a dangerous and worrying precedent if the FA allowed it.

The right decision has been made.
I don’t agree.

The vote was to null and void National League North and South. That would have happened. No one was suggesting carrying on NLN/NLS.

It’s fundamentally dishonest to say a new mini-league would have meant not honouring the original vote.

I also have no problem with sides acting in their own interests. We’re doing exactly the same. So long as clubs are honest about their reasons, I have no problem.

What I don’t like though is the FA and the mini-league’s opponents hiding behind this “integrity of the league” nonsense. It’s a vague, meaningless phrase that people trot out when they have no other argument.

If you want to talk about integrity of the vote, the NLS actually voted to carry on. It’s an odd form of democracy that allows a league to vote in favour of carrying but still demands they finish.

Darlington’s vested interest, along with other sides who also justifiably didn’t want to carry on, has meant sides in a different league can’t get promoted.

I still haven’t seen a valid reason why clubs who can carry on, should be prevented from doing so.
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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by m62exile » Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:54 am

I’ve just listened to an interview on BBC York where the Gloucester chairman explained how this proposal would work.

Basically irrespective of what league the teams were in they would calculate a PPG based on the mathematical average of if everyone had played 15 games. Dorking, Gloucester, Dartford etc would therefore start top.

However, because teams like Welling would have no chance, they would get to start on 20 points “to keep it interesting for them”

They’d then play each other once. If the distance was a long way a “human being” would ensure that the full time club would go to the part time club’s venue to minimise travel disruption.

They had arranged a new sponsor who was going to give each club £5k to pay towards this new mini league competition.

The winners of this mini league would be promoted and there would also be a play off with another promotion spot.

It can’t have been a long discussion at the FA when presented with that.


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LoidLucan
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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by LoidLucan » Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:16 am

I can see why the Dorking gadgie is furious. He's spent a fortune on his squad and stuffed it with ex-league club players in an all-out bid for promotion this year only to have it snatched away in extraordinary circumstances.

I was fairly ambivalent about this mini-league idea (as it didn't harm our club) and I think the whole reaction to the pandemic has been badly handled from the start But I can also see why the FA haven't gone along with the White/Petheram vision.

I'm sure the FA felt that cobbling together an ad-hoc league out of the remnants of those willing to play from North and South with one game against each other, a complicated formula and promotion slots at the end in a tight and difficult timescale was just totally removed from the existing set-up and without precedent. It also had major ramifications on the league above and its clubs... so probably yet another major headache that the authorities felt they could do without in a season of turmoil and upset.

I probably wouldn't have thrown in the word "integrity" given the inept way funding and other issues have been handled but it didn't surprise me that the mini league idea was rejected.

There clearly wasn't any single solution that would have been acceptable to everyone given all the conflicting interests but in all the circumstances maybe just admitting defeat to this awful virus and its ramifications for now and starting afresh at our level when things will be different was the least worst way forward. And yes probably the easiest and simplest way forward.
Last edited by LoidLucan on Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:36 am

m62exile wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:54 am
Basically irrespective of what league the teams were in they would calculate a PPG based on the mathematical average of if everyone had played 15 games. Dorking, Gloucester, Dartford etc would therefore start top.
:o

m62exile wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:54 am
However, because teams like Welling would have no chance, they would get to start on 20 points “to keep it interesting for them”
:D

m62exile wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:54 am
It can’t have been a long discussion at the FA when presented with that.
:lol:

So a new competition but not a new competition - with extra bonus points thrown in as sweeteners.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by Darlofan97 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:06 am

Darlogramps wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:15 am
Darlofan97 wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:54 pm
lo36789 wrote:
onewayup wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:07 pm
Absolutely the correct decision for the integrity of the national league north/south.
I am not really sure how the integrity of the competition would have been damaged if given the circumstances clubs that wanted to play on had.

I would actually argue that the removal of threat of relegation from the division above is more damaging to the integrity of the National League than the alternative but I wasn't really that bothered as long as it didn't affect us.
Yep, no idea how setting up a mini-league affects the league’s integrity, any more than PPG or null and void. It’s a nonsense phrase that translates as “We didn’t want the hassle”.

So long as those teams not taking part aren’t unfairly inconvenienced, I don’t see how it does.

Onewayup also doesn’t realise it was the FA, not the National League who made the ruling today. But that’s about par for the course with him.
I’d say it does affect the integrity of the league.

The league held a vote throughout its divisions that concluded with an outcome of N&V for Step 2. That had to be respected.

What you can’t then have, is those that didn’t like the result, setting up their own mini-league driven by their own agendas. It would set a dangerous and worrying precedent if the FA allowed it.

The right decision has been made.
I don’t agree.

The vote was to null and void National League North and South. That would have happened. No one was suggesting carrying on NLN/NLS.

It’s fundamentally dishonest to say a new mini-league would have meant not honouring the original vote.

I also have no problem with sides acting in their own interests. We’re doing exactly the same. So long as clubs are honest about their reasons, I have no problem.

What I don’t like though is the FA and the mini-league’s opponents hiding behind this “integrity of the league” nonsense. It’s a vague, meaningless phrase that people trot out when they have no other argument.

If you want to talk about integrity of the vote, the NLS actually voted to carry on. It’s an odd form of democracy that allows a league to vote in favour of carrying but still demands they finish.

Darlington’s vested interest, along with other sides who also justifiably didn’t want to carry on, has meant sides in a different league can’t get promoted.

I still haven’t seen a valid reason why clubs who can carry on, should be prevented from doing so.
I just can't see how it *doesn't* affect the integrity of the competition when a vote has been held and the result was N&V.

It looked after our own interests, yes, but it just so happen that it looked after all of the others who voted for the same at Step 2 (i.e. the majority).

The key thing here is the vote. It made sense for Step 2 to be grouped together, as both leagues feed in to the National League. You have to group both leagues together, or not at all. You can't N&V the NLN, but not the NLS. So I certainly wouldn't say that is an odd form a democracy.

See m62's post re. what the Gloucester Chairman was explaining on BBC York. PPG, weighting lower teams "to make it interesting", home/away games decided on who is part-time or full-time, teams that voted N&V could enter the mini-league if they wanted. It's an absolute mess and no way was that ever going to pass.

Out of a matter of principle, I don't agree with the 'survival of the fittest' situation where those who can afford to take on loans will play on, set-up their own mini-league and propose new rules that would favour them (i.e. promotion slots, no relegation, PPG etc).

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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by bga » Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:32 pm

Darlofan97 wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:06 am
Darlogramps wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:15 am
Darlofan97 wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:54 pm
lo36789 wrote:
I am not really sure how the integrity of the competition would have been damaged if given the circumstances clubs that wanted to play on had.

I would actually argue that the removal of threat of relegation from the division above is more damaging to the integrity of the National League than the alternative but I wasn't really that bothered as long as it didn't affect us.
Yep, no idea how setting up a mini-league affects the league’s integrity, any more than PPG or null and void. It’s a nonsense phrase that translates as “We didn’t want the hassle”.

So long as those teams not taking part aren’t unfairly inconvenienced, I don’t see how it does.

Onewayup also doesn’t realise it was the FA, not the National League who made the ruling today. But that’s about par for the course with him.
I’d say it does affect the integrity of the league.

The league held a vote throughout its divisions that concluded with an outcome of N&V for Step 2. That had to be respected.

What you can’t then have, is those that didn’t like the result, setting up their own mini-league driven by their own agendas. It would set a dangerous and worrying precedent if the FA allowed it.

The right decision has been made.
I don’t agree.

The vote was to null and void National League North and South. That would have happened. No one was suggesting carrying on NLN/NLS.

It’s fundamentally dishonest to say a new mini-league would have meant not honouring the original vote.

I also have no problem with sides acting in their own interests. We’re doing exactly the same. So long as clubs are honest about their reasons, I have no problem.

What I don’t like though is the FA and the mini-league’s opponents hiding behind this “integrity of the league” nonsense. It’s a vague, meaningless phrase that people trot out when they have no other argument.

If you want to talk about integrity of the vote, the NLS actually voted to carry on. It’s an odd form of democracy that allows a league to vote in favour of carrying but still demands they finish.

Darlington’s vested interest, along with other sides who also justifiably didn’t want to carry on, has meant sides in a different league can’t get promoted.

I still haven’t seen a valid reason why clubs who can carry on, should be prevented from doing so.
I just can't see how it *doesn't* affect the integrity of the competition when a vote has been held and the result was N&V.

It looked after our own interests, yes, but it just so happen that it looked after all of the others who voted for the same at Step 2 (i.e. the majority).

The key thing here is the vote. It made sense for Step 2 to be grouped together, as both leagues feed in to the National League. You have to group both leagues together, or not at all. You can't N&V the NLN, but not the NLS. So I certainly wouldn't say that is an odd form a democracy.

See m62's post re. what the Gloucester Chairman was explaining on BBC York. PPG, weighting lower teams "to make it interesting", home/away games decided on who is part-time or full-time, teams that voted N&V could enter the mini-league if they wanted. It's an absolute mess and no way was that ever going to pass.

Out of a matter of principle, I don't agree with the 'survival of the fittest' situation where those who can afford to take on loans will play on, set-up their own mini-league and propose new rules that would favour them (i.e. promotion slots, no relegation, PPG etc).
Good points made well. The National League structure allows for teams to be promoted from NLS NLN. It does not allow (now confirmed by the FA) for a mini league of 16 clubs with ridiculous rules regarding points and where matches are to be played to be promoted.

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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by Darlogramps » Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:00 pm

Darlofan97 wrote:
I just can't see how it *doesn't* affect the integrity of the competition when a vote has been held and the result was N&V.

It looked after our own interests, yes, but it just so happen that it looked after all of the others who voted for the same at Step 2 (i.e. the majority).

The key thing here is the vote. It made sense for Step 2 to be grouped together, as both leagues feed in to the National League. You have to group both leagues together, or not at all. You can't N&V the NLN, but not the NLS. So I certainly wouldn't say that is an odd form a democracy.

See m62's post re. what the Gloucester Chairman was explaining on BBC York. PPG, weighting lower teams "to make it interesting", home/away games decided on who is part-time or full-time, teams that voted N&V could enter the mini-league if they wanted. It's an absolute mess and no way was that ever going to pass.

Out of a matter of principle, I don't agree with the 'survival of the fittest' situation where those who can afford to take on loans will play on, set-up their own mini-league and propose new rules that would favour them (i.e. promotion slots, no relegation, PPG etc).
The null and void vote is totally irrelevant to the proposed mini-league.

The vote was to null and void the NLN and NLS. That would still have happened. The outcome would still have been respected.

I haven’t heard the interview, but clearly the terms as outlined above around PPG and gifting points are ridiculous. That particular proposal was a joke.

However, a fairer and more sensible proposal (all teams starting on zero, maybe with two pools of eight teams and a play-off system to decide promotion), I’d have no truck with.

And this is the thing, some on here who oppose the idea of a mini-league are doing so simply because Darlington aren’t involved, and don’t want other teams to get success. It’s childish bitterness.

But trying to say a mini-league would have undermined the vote is plain wrong and dishonest. The outcome of the vote would have stood regardless. The vote and the mini-league have nothing to do with each other.
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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by bga » Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:23 pm

The null and void vote is totally relevant because the vote was to end the season with no promotion. You have a view on what you believe the word "suspend" promotion meant in the official statement. I disagree and believe it was clear it means no promotion this season.

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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by Darlofan97 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:31 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:00 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
I just can't see how it *doesn't* affect the integrity of the competition when a vote has been held and the result was N&V.

It looked after our own interests, yes, but it just so happen that it looked after all of the others who voted for the same at Step 2 (i.e. the majority).

The key thing here is the vote. It made sense for Step 2 to be grouped together, as both leagues feed in to the National League. You have to group both leagues together, or not at all. You can't N&V the NLN, but not the NLS. So I certainly wouldn't say that is an odd form a democracy.

See m62's post re. what the Gloucester Chairman was explaining on BBC York. PPG, weighting lower teams "to make it interesting", home/away games decided on who is part-time or full-time, teams that voted N&V could enter the mini-league if they wanted. It's an absolute mess and no way was that ever going to pass.

Out of a matter of principle, I don't agree with the 'survival of the fittest' situation where those who can afford to take on loans will play on, set-up their own mini-league and propose new rules that would favour them (i.e. promotion slots, no relegation, PPG etc).
The null and void vote is totally irrelevant to the proposed mini-league.

The vote was to null and void the NLN and NLS. That would still have happened. The outcome would still have been respected.

I haven’t heard the interview, but clearly the terms as outlined above around PPG and gifting points are ridiculous. That particular proposal was a joke.

However, a fairer and more sensible proposal (all teams starting on zero, maybe with two pools of eight teams and a play-off system to decide promotion), I’d have no truck with.

And this is the thing, some on here who oppose the idea of a mini-league are doing so simply because Darlington aren’t involved, and don’t want other teams to get success. It’s childish bitterness.

But trying to say a mini-league would have undermined the vote is plain wrong and dishonest. The outcome of the vote would have stood regardless. The vote and the mini-league have nothing to do with each other.
The only reason for the proposed mini-league was because of the vote, so it cannot be “totally irrelevant”.

It’s absolutely relevant. The majority of Step 2 voted for N&V, the vote was passed (supported by the FA Alliance Committee & National League) and subsequently Step 2 ground to a halt and results declared N&V.

The proposal of a Step 2 mini-league undermined the original vote being passed (which was for all of Step 2 to be declared N&V). When is N&V actually not N&V?

I don’t mind that DFC weren’t part of the proposal and I didn’t actively go against the proposal, but at the same time I can see how it does affect the integrity of the league and why the proposal has been struck out. There is no dishonesty on this point of view.

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When is null & void.......

Post by Darlogramps » Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:36 pm

bga wrote:The null and void vote is totally relevant because the vote was to end the season with no promotion. You have a view on what you believe the word "suspend" promotion meant in the official statement. I disagree and believe it was clear it means no promotion this season.
At that stage, there was no mini-league proposal. In my view, the suspension applied to the existing competitions which were being ended.

The Alliance Committee even hearing the view tells you it was a possibility promotion could have applied to this mini-league. As I said, how promotion is applied is at the discretion of the National League, provided it gets approved by the FA.

Put it this way, if it was Darlington pushing for a mini-league, plenty of those opposed to this would be backing it. I believe the opposition view is based on partisanship, rather than concerns about league integrity.
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When is null & void.......

Post by Darlogramps » Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:45 pm

Darlofan97 wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:00 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
I just can't see how it *doesn't* affect the integrity of the competition when a vote has been held and the result was N&V.

It looked after our own interests, yes, but it just so happen that it looked after all of the others who voted for the same at Step 2 (i.e. the majority).

The key thing here is the vote. It made sense for Step 2 to be grouped together, as both leagues feed in to the National League. You have to group both leagues together, or not at all. You can't N&V the NLN, but not the NLS. So I certainly wouldn't say that is an odd form a democracy.

See m62's post re. what the Gloucester Chairman was explaining on BBC York. PPG, weighting lower teams "to make it interesting", home/away games decided on who is part-time or full-time, teams that voted N&V could enter the mini-league if they wanted. It's an absolute mess and no way was that ever going to pass.

Out of a matter of principle, I don't agree with the 'survival of the fittest' situation where those who can afford to take on loans will play on, set-up their own mini-league and propose new rules that would favour them (i.e. promotion slots, no relegation, PPG etc).
The null and void vote is totally irrelevant to the proposed mini-league.

The vote was to null and void the NLN and NLS. That would still have happened. The outcome would still have been respected.

I haven’t heard the interview, but clearly the terms as outlined above around PPG and gifting points are ridiculous. That particular proposal was a joke.

However, a fairer and more sensible proposal (all teams starting on zero, maybe with two pools of eight teams and a play-off system to decide promotion), I’d have no truck with.

And this is the thing, some on here who oppose the idea of a mini-league are doing so simply because Darlington aren’t involved, and don’t want other teams to get success. It’s childish bitterness.

But trying to say a mini-league would have undermined the vote is plain wrong and dishonest. The outcome of the vote would have stood regardless. The vote and the mini-league have nothing to do with each other.
The only reason for the proposed mini-league was because of the vote, so it cannot be “totally irrelevant”.

It’s absolutely relevant. The majority of Step 2 voted for N&V, the vote was passed (supported by the FA Alliance Committee & National League) and subsequently Step 2 ground to a halt and results declared N&V.

The proposal of a Step 2 mini-league undermined the original vote being passed (which was for all of Step 2 to be declared N&V). When is N&V actually not N&V?
The vote applied to existing Step 2 leagues. Obviously. You can’t vote on a mini-league that hasn’t yet been proposed.

Therefore the resolutions of the vote can ONLY apply to the NLN/NLS. You can’t retrospectively apply the results to something that hasn’t existed when voted on.

The vote is irrelevant because it has no material impact on the mini-league. The NLN/NLS (which was what was voted on) would have remained null and void.

I just don’t see how a sensible mini-league affects anyone negatively. It would have been for one season in exceptional circumstances. No Step 2 relegation would mean clubs not taking part would not be unfairly penalised.
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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by bga » Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:56 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:36 pm
bga wrote:The null and void vote is totally relevant because the vote was to end the season with no promotion. You have a view on what you believe the word "suspend" promotion meant in the official statement. I disagree and believe it was clear it means no promotion this season.
At that stage, there was no mini-league proposal. In my view, the suspension applied to the existing competitions which were being ended.

The Alliance Committee even hearing the view tells you it was a possibility promotion could have applied to this mini-league. As I said, how promotion is applied is at the discretion of the National League, provided it gets approved by the FA.

Put it this way, if it was Darlington pushing for a mini-league, plenty of those opposed to this would be backing it. I believe the opposition view is based on partisanship, rather than concerns about league integrity.
For the record my views are not based on partisanship.

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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by EDJOHNS » Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:06 pm

LoidLucan wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:16 am
I can see why the Dorking gadgie is furious. He's spent a fortune on his squad and stuffed it with ex-league club players in an all-out bid for promotion this year only to have it snatched away in extraordinary circumstances.

I was fairly ambivalent about this mini-league idea (as it didn't harm our club) and I think the whole reaction to the pandemic has been badly handled from the start But I can also see why the FA haven't gone along with the White/Petheram vision.

I'm sure the FA felt that cobbling together an ad-hoc league out of the remnants of those willing to play from North and South with one game against each other, a complicated formula and promotion slots at the end in a tight and difficult timescale was just totally removed from the existing set-up and without precedent. It also had major ramifications on the league above and its clubs... so probably yet another major headache that the authorities felt they could do without in a season of turmoil and upset.

I probably wouldn't have thrown in the word "integrity" given the inept way funding and other issues have been handled but it didn't surprise me that the mini league idea was rejected.

There clearly wasn't any single solution that would have been acceptable to everyone given all the conflicting interests but in all the circumstances maybe just admitting defeat to this awful virus and its ramifications for now and starting afresh at our level when things will be different was the least worst way forward. And yes probably the easiest and simplest way forward.
Just 2 points, personally I have little sympathy for anyone who spent a shed load of money to try and buy the league when we were just a few months into a pandemic that, at that point, no-one could forecast what the outcome would be,
and,
I don't get the argument for this "mini league" being placed at the same level as the Nat N&S.
We have a system that, like it or not, rewards teams for hard work over a full length season. This concocted league, in my eyes, were just trying to muscle themselves into the higher echelons of the pyramid.
Now weather you agree with me or not, if they had been allowed the precedent would have been set for clubs, (lets say in Cornwall as an example), to jump in and form a new league and then say we want to be placed on the same level as the Nat N&S. I do not see, if this league had been allowed, how anyone could argue against that, ie, total football anarchy.

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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by lo36789 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:21 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:06 pm
Now weather you agree with me or not, if they had been allowed the precedent would have been set for clubs, (lets say in Cornwall as an example), to jump in and form a new league and then say we want to be placed on the same level as the Nat N&S. I do not see, if this league had been allowed, how anyone could argue against that, ie, total football anarchy.
You don't really think this do you?

And actually so what "In the circumstances where there is a global pandemic and for the second season in a row a season is halted early,. If that should occur exceptional circumstances enable clubs to compete in order to determine promotion candidates - and requires full sanctioning by the governing body in order to do so"

Is that actually a particularly dangerous precedent?

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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by Darlofan97 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:33 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:45 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:00 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
I just can't see how it *doesn't* affect the integrity of the competition when a vote has been held and the result was N&V.

It looked after our own interests, yes, but it just so happen that it looked after all of the others who voted for the same at Step 2 (i.e. the majority).

The key thing here is the vote. It made sense for Step 2 to be grouped together, as both leagues feed in to the National League. You have to group both leagues together, or not at all. You can't N&V the NLN, but not the NLS. So I certainly wouldn't say that is an odd form a democracy.

See m62's post re. what the Gloucester Chairman was explaining on BBC York. PPG, weighting lower teams "to make it interesting", home/away games decided on who is part-time or full-time, teams that voted N&V could enter the mini-league if they wanted. It's an absolute mess and no way was that ever going to pass.

Out of a matter of principle, I don't agree with the 'survival of the fittest' situation where those who can afford to take on loans will play on, set-up their own mini-league and propose new rules that would favour them (i.e. promotion slots, no relegation, PPG etc).
The null and void vote is totally irrelevant to the proposed mini-league.

The vote was to null and void the NLN and NLS. That would still have happened. The outcome would still have been respected.

I haven’t heard the interview, but clearly the terms as outlined above around PPG and gifting points are ridiculous. That particular proposal was a joke.

However, a fairer and more sensible proposal (all teams starting on zero, maybe with two pools of eight teams and a play-off system to decide promotion), I’d have no truck with.

And this is the thing, some on here who oppose the idea of a mini-league are doing so simply because Darlington aren’t involved, and don’t want other teams to get success. It’s childish bitterness.

But trying to say a mini-league would have undermined the vote is plain wrong and dishonest. The outcome of the vote would have stood regardless. The vote and the mini-league have nothing to do with each other.
The only reason for the proposed mini-league was because of the vote, so it cannot be “totally irrelevant”.

It’s absolutely relevant. The majority of Step 2 voted for N&V, the vote was passed (supported by the FA Alliance Committee & National League) and subsequently Step 2 ground to a halt and results declared N&V.

The proposal of a Step 2 mini-league undermined the original vote being passed (which was for all of Step 2 to be declared N&V). When is N&V actually not N&V?
The vote applied to existing Step 2 leagues. Obviously. You can’t vote on a mini-league that hasn’t yet been proposed.

Therefore the resolutions of the vote can ONLY apply to the NLN/NLS. You can’t retrospectively apply the results to something that hasn’t existed when voted on.

The vote is irrelevant because it has no material impact on the mini-league. The NLN/NLS (which was what was voted on) would have remained null and void.

I just don’t see how a sensible mini-league affects anyone negatively. It would have been for one season in exceptional circumstances. No Step 2 relegation would mean clubs not taking part would not be unfairly penalised.
The mini-league proposal was borne from the initial vote, that is a material impact I would say.

You do also realise that the creation of a Step 2 mini-league would also render the first vote void itself, as the result that was passed was for all of Step 2 to become null & void with no promotion. The proposal of a Step 2 mini-league with promotion would contravene this, therefore this would go against what the majority voted for and what was passed.

There are several flaws to a simplistic 8-team per league situation as:

- The implementation of a Step 2 mini-league with promotion would render the initial vote void.

- Some NLS clubs would have to transfer to the NLN (you would have some clubs already have played each other twice this season, others none).

- The promotion places would be decided on roughly 33% of an original season being played.

- Play-offs wouldn't follow their usual format, or happen at all.

- You cannot just set-up a 'new' league mid-season.

Those are just a handful of reasons why it is a non-starter and I am sure there are many more.

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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by lo36789 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:48 pm

Darlofan97 wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:33 pm
There are several flaws to a simplistic 8-team per league situation as:

- The implementation of a Step 2 mini-league with promotion would render the initial vote void.

- Some NLS clubs would have to transfer to the NLN (you would have some clubs already have played each other twice this season, others none).

- The promotion places would be decided on roughly 33% of an original season being played.

- Play-offs wouldn't follow their usual format, or happen at all.

- You cannot just set-up a 'new' league mid-season.

Those are just a handful of reasons why it is a non-starter and I am sure there are many more.
Interesting as I would respond "no, it wouldn't", "so?" or "you can do anything as long as approved by the NLS leagues committee" to all of these.

It isn't 'normal' circumstances that's for sure.

However I'd like to think anything is possible if it is a reasonable and sensible solution which doesn't create detrimental outcomes to anybody.

Remember "You can't televise 3PM KO in England" was a thing a year ago.

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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:05 pm

I wonder what is happening about the clubs facing charges for not playing? Have these hearings taken place yet?
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by lo36789 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:10 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:05 pm
I wonder what is happening about the clubs facing charges for not playing? Have these hearings taken place yet?
Well given you can't just refuse to play games, that would set a dangerous precedent. To protect the integrity of the competition all clubs in question should receive the fines per the competition rules. I assume those above believe that is the only fair outcome really.

In reality, they will be wiped. The league were pretty honest that it was an admin thing whilst the outcome wasn't decided and I fully expect the charges will be cancelled.

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