When is null & void.......

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bga
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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by bga » Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:15 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:10 pm
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:05 pm
I wonder what is happening about the clubs facing charges for not playing? Have these hearings taken place yet?
Well given you can't just refuse to play games, that would set a dangerous precedent. To protect the integrity of the competition all clubs in question should receive the fines per the competition rules. I assume those above believe that is the only fair outcome really.

In reality, they will be wiped.

The league were pretty honest that it was an admin thing and I fully expect the charges will be cancelled.
DJ commented on this in one of his recent broadcasts saying he wasn't too worried because null and void basically means this season did not take place so how can you be fined?

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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by Maurice_Peddelty » Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:08 pm

bga wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:15 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:10 pm
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:05 pm
I wonder what is happening about the clubs facing charges for not playing? Have these hearings taken place yet?
Well given you can't just refuse to play games, that would set a dangerous precedent. To protect the integrity of the competition all clubs in question should receive the fines per the competition rules. I assume those above believe that is the only fair outcome really.

In reality, they will be wiped.

The league were pretty honest that it was an admin thing and I fully expect the charges will be cancelled.
DJ commented on this in one of his recent broadcasts saying he wasn't too worried because null and void basically means this season did not take place so how can you be fined?
That seems the logical outcome for those Step 2 clubs that failed to fullfil a fixture. But I wonder how the NL will deal with Dover? Bearing in mind the NL is continuing and the points that Dover have gained to date could impact on the promotion stakes (although I haven't looked to see if Dover have taken any points off those in contention for promotion).

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When is null & void.......

Post by Darlogramps » Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:35 pm

Darlofan97 wrote:
The mini-league proposal was borne from the initial vote, that is a material impact I would say.

You do also realise that the creation of a Step 2 mini-league would also render the first vote void itself, as the result that was passed was for all of Step 2 to become null & void with no promotion. The proposal of a Step 2 mini-league with promotion would contravene this, therefore this would go against what the majority voted for and what was passed.

There are several flaws to a simplistic 8-team per league situation as:

- The implementation of a Step 2 mini-league with promotion would render the initial vote void.

- Some NLS clubs would have to transfer to the NLN (you would have some clubs already have played each other twice this season, others none).

- The promotion places would be decided on roughly 33% of an original season being played.

- Play-offs wouldn't follow their usual format, or happen at all.

- You cannot just set-up a 'new' league mid-season.

Those are just a handful of reasons why it is a non-starter and I am sure there are many more.
You absolutely can set up a new competition mid-season.It’s happening all across non-league as we speak. Many, many leagues are creating new competitions to compensate for non-league football being binned off. So long as it has the backing of the governing league and then the FA, any new competition will be created.

In fact, you can change rules mid-season, so long as the league approves it. Look at last season. The rules were literally changed mid-season to vote on PPG.

So all your reasons are actually not reasons at all. They’re all overcome by, as lo says, a simple vote from the league and its members.

The problem is you’re talking as if we’re in normal times. We’re not, the small matter of a global pandemic, no fans, looming financial crises and a massively disrupted fixture list means these are hugely unique circumstances.

In this context, I don’t see how a mini-league is a problem. And having read the resolutions, I’m not changing my mind on there being lee-way for a new mini-league with promotion.

As I said, the original vote would have been respected by a new competition. It doesn’t impact it at all. The National League North and South would not have carried on, and there wouldn’t have been promotion from those leagues. That’s what was voted on.

I actually think your reasoning is quite badly thought out.
Darlofan97 wrote: “- The implementation of a Step 2 mini-league with promotion would render the initial vote void.”
No it wouldn’t, for reasons as discussed above. The mini-league would have been separate to NLN and NLS and therefore not subject to the original null and void vote.
Darlofan97 wrote: - “Some NLS clubs would have to transfer to the NLN (you would have some clubs already have played each other twice this season, others none).”
So? You do realise it wouldn’t necessarily be a North and South pool. And if teams start from zero, number of fixtures played is irrelevant.
Darlofan97 wrote: “- The promotion places would be decided on roughly 33% of an original season being played. “
So? The original leagues were null and voided. This is a new competition. If the rules are approved, the number of fixtures doesn’t matter.
Darlofan97 wrote: - Play-offs wouldn't follow their usual format, or happen at all.
So? See my above answer.
Darlofan97 wrote: - You cannot just set-up a 'new' league mid-season.
Yes you can, so long as it’s approved by the governing league and FA.

You’re usually pretty good but your arguments are surprisingly weak and illogical.
Last edited by Darlogramps on Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by Darlogramps » Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:53 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:
LoidLucan wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:16 am
I can see why the Dorking gadgie is furious. He's spent a fortune on his squad and stuffed it with ex-league club players in an all-out bid for promotion this year only to have it snatched away in extraordinary circumstances.

I was fairly ambivalent about this mini-league idea (as it didn't harm our club) and I think the whole reaction to the pandemic has been badly handled from the start But I can also see why the FA haven't gone along with the White/Petheram vision.

I'm sure the FA felt that cobbling together an ad-hoc league out of the remnants of those willing to play from North and South with one game against each other, a complicated formula and promotion slots at the end in a tight and difficult timescale was just totally removed from the existing set-up and without precedent. It also had major ramifications on the league above and its clubs... so probably yet another major headache that the authorities felt they could do without in a season of turmoil and upset.

I probably wouldn't have thrown in the word "integrity" given the inept way funding and other issues have been handled but it didn't surprise me that the mini league idea was rejected.

There clearly wasn't any single solution that would have been acceptable to everyone given all the conflicting interests but in all the circumstances maybe just admitting defeat to this awful virus and its ramifications for now and starting afresh at our level when things will be different was the least worst way forward. And yes probably the easiest and simplest way forward.
Just 2 points, personally I have little sympathy for anyone who spent a shed load of money to try and buy the league when we were just a few months into a pandemic that, at that point, no-one could forecast what the outcome would be,
and,
I don't get the argument for this "mini league" being placed at the same level as the Nat N&S.
We have a system that, like it or not, rewards teams for hard work over a full length season. This concocted league, in my eyes, were just trying to muscle themselves into the higher echelons of the pyramid.
Now weather you agree with me or not, if they had been allowed the precedent would have been set for clubs, (lets say in Cornwall as an example), to jump in and form a new league and then say we want to be placed on the same level as the Nat N&S. I do not see, if this league had been allowed, how anyone could argue against that, ie, total football anarchy.
No it wouldn’t. You wouldn’t get a Cornish League being set up at Step 2. That’s massively different to the proposed mini-league.

The reason being the proposed mini-league was A) a one-off and B) involved teams already at this level.

Your example would be a permanent addition involving new teams. That would never get approval, and the requirement for National League and FA approval guards against that.

So that addresses your hypothetical scenario.
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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by Darlofan97 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:20 pm

Gramps, you are suggesting that the original vote and proposal of a Step 2 mini-league are unrelated and respect the result of the original vote. This simply is not true.

The resolution which passed stated the following:
the 2020/2021 Playing Season of the National League North & National League South (Step 2) shall immediately end on this date this resolution is passed and be declared null and void and subject to the approval of the Football Association those Regulations that provide for promotion and relegation to and from Step 2 be suspended for the 2020/2021 Playing Season.
Therefore, there was absolutely zero chance of the mini league proposal going ahead, as the vote above (which passed) clearly stated that the Step 2 season was N&V, and there would be no promotion & relegation from Step 2.

The proposal of a Step 2 mini league absolutely contravened this democratic vote, as it included some Step 2 clubs continuing and Step 2 promotion being upheld. Again, this goes against the vote which passed.

To say that this isn’t the case as the proposal of a mini league was a ‘new league’ is too simplistic. All of the clubs are members of the National League system that carried out a fair vote to decide on the fate of Step 1 & Step 2. That decision is final and should be respected, IMO.

Crucially, the FA Alliance Committee have rejected the proposal after deliberation, and will have certainly given it more thought than just a quick outright rejection. Far more thought that what you or I have done.

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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by Darlofan97 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:27 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:48 pm
Darlofan97 wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:33 pm
There are several flaws to a simplistic 8-team per league situation as:

- The implementation of a Step 2 mini-league with promotion would render the initial vote void.

- Some NLS clubs would have to transfer to the NLN (you would have some clubs already have played each other twice this season, others none).

- The promotion places would be decided on roughly 33% of an original season being played.

- Play-offs wouldn't follow their usual format, or happen at all.

- You cannot just set-up a 'new' league mid-season.

Those are just a handful of reasons why it is a non-starter and I am sure there are many more.
Interesting as I would respond "no, it wouldn't", "so?" or "you can do anything as long as approved by the NLS leagues committee" to all of these.

It isn't 'normal' circumstances that's for sure.

However I'd like to think anything is possible if it is a reasonable and sensible solution which doesn't create detrimental outcomes to anybody.

Remember "You can't televise 3PM KO in England" was a thing a year ago.
The ‘televising football at 3pm’ rule change is a bit different to going against a voting process and attempting to set-up a new league.

Common sense should always be applied, especially during these very tough times. However, to me, this proposal was always going to be difficult to achieve and wasn’t as straight-forward as being intimated.

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:47 pm

Hardly a new competition when they wanted to use a PPG ratio based on the old system - the voided season.

From the beginning it all seemed a bit far fetched.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by lo36789 » Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:32 am

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:47 pm
Hardly a new competition when they wanted to use a PPG ratio based on the old system - the voided season.

From the beginning it all seemed a bit far fetched.
Don't mix up the merits of the concept with the proposed application.

The concept ie. to find a means to support continued operations of clubs
who are legally able to and ultimately identify promotion candidates from step 2 without threatening the existence of other clubs at that level is perfectly reasonable.

The practicalities arent simple. Ultimately turned out to be insurmountable and certainly weren't helped by the mechanics of the proposed approach.

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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:18 am

lo36789 wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:32 am
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:47 pm
Hardly a new competition when they wanted to use a PPG ratio based on the old system - the voided season.

From the beginning it all seemed a bit far fetched.
Don't mix up the merits of the concept with the proposed application.

The concept ie. to find a means to support continued operations of clubs
who are legally able to and ultimately identify promotion candidates from step 2 without threatening the existence of other clubs at that level is perfectly reasonable.

The practicalities arent simple. Ultimately turned out to be insurmountable and certainly weren't helped by the mechanics of the proposed approach.
Yes, I would go along with that.

It's been a very difficult situation, handled by people who aren't up to the job. Mishandled in fact.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Quaker85
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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by Quaker85 » Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:35 am

Where’s the board’s resident legal expert when you need him?


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EDJOHNS
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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by EDJOHNS » Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:11 am

.
Last edited by EDJOHNS on Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: When is null & void.......

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:15 pm

Lo, here is a question for you.

These league board members, can they be voted out somehow? Held to account for the cock ups they’ve made?

I reckon that the only thing that Dorking’s legal action will achieve will be to make things very awkward for them. So they will have to go.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

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