Yet more religious nuttery

[Quakerz]

I would also be against the banning of religion as people should be free to make their own choices.

I wouldn't.

I would also lock up any religious people in mental asylums, because they actually are...mental.

[Quakerz]

In a way, that's what IS are trying to do, isn't it? Some kind of cleansing? Problem is, it is based on made up fairy-belief and their desire for everyone to belive something which has no evidence to back it up.

And that is why it's got to go.

Sadly it'll never happen in my lifetime.

Two things which probably won't happen I would love to see before I die - man landing on Mars, and eradication of religion.

[RUMPLESTILTSKIN]

I can prove you can't fly DOTU

No, you cannot. He may well refuse to fly when thrown out of the plane. That does not prove he cannot. It is impossible to prove that something does not exist or does not happen. It is easy to prove something/some one does exist. Can you prove you have never killed anyone - of course you cannot.

God exists in peoples minds, that's all that matters to them who believe. Me, I don't but I may repent at the end of my life, just in case.

Interesting debate though.

[DarloOnTheUp]

The new version of Cosmos edited for Christians:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmdGFWS0m54

And the old one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI9ImScQGAo

Praise the lord!!! I've seen the light!! etc. etc.

[DarloOnTheUp]

I have to say these Christians definitely do a better job of defending their religion when they're completely silent on the matter.

[Quakerz]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-29527556







Twats.

[DarloOnTheUp]

A Christian couple are stoned to death for blasphemy in Pakistan:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-29893809

Jesus s***! For omniscient beings, these imaginary gods are sensitive fuckers. I wonder what the other made-up god has to say about this:

13 Then the Lord said to Moses: 14 “Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him. 15 Say to the Israelites: ‘Anyone who curses their God will be held responsible; 16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. The entire assembly must stone them. Whether foreigner or native-born, when they blaspheme the Name they are to be put to death.

- Leviticus 24:13-16

So that's two gods commanding the horrific death of anyone who dares 'blaspheme' against them, followed by torture and suffering for eternity.

You read lines like that and you really wonder why anybody believes this s*** is anything other than human writing or, more importantly, how anybody can be OK with it.

[Darlobaz79]

well done Saido Berahino https://twitter.com/SBerahino

[DarloOnTheUp]

well done Saido Berahino https://twitter.com/SBerahino

Indeed, well done; he fully deserved the call-up, as did Downing.

You seem to have put this in the wrong thread though as I fail to see how this has anything to do with religion or any god.

[Darlobaz79]

[DarloOnTheUp]

Well? How exactly is your post relevant?

[Spyman]

Well? How exactly is your post relevant?

I think he's just providing further evidence that religious people are completely nuts.

[Spyman]

Presumably his Mum is called 'God'?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29942309

[DarloOnTheUp]

Well? How exactly is your post relevant?

I think he's just providing further evidence that religious people are completely nuts.

At least that's one thing he can actually provide evidence for.

[grytters]

"Do the job that we, as taxpayers, are paying you to do"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-g ... t-30514054

[DarloOnTheUp]

Wise words from Stephen Fry:

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/ ... lsignoutmd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suvkwNYSQo

“How dare you create a world in which there is such misery that is not our fault? It’s not right.

“It’s utterly, utterly evil. Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God who creates a world which is so full of injustice and pain?”

“I would say: ‘bone cancer in children? What’s that about?’

“Because the God who created this universe, if it was created by God, is quite clearly a maniac, utter maniac. Totally selfish. We have to spend our life on our knees thanking him?! What kind of god would do that?”

“Yes, the world is very splendid but it also has in it insects whose whole lifecycle is to burrow into the eyes of children and make them blind. They eat outwards from the eyes. Why? Why did you do that to us? You could easily have made a creation in which that didn’t exist. It is simply not acceptable.

“It’s perfectly apparent that he is monstrous. Utterly monstrous and deserves no respect whatsoever. The moment you banish him, life becomes simpler, purer, cleaner, more worth living in my opinion.”

Altogether now: "Fuck you God!"

[sacko_uk]

Just to balance it out for you

“We can't, and we should not, compare sufferings. We come together as a family of God, hand in hand. And then together coming and standing upon the promises of God, knowing that no matter who you are, no matter what you're going through, that God knows it, He is with you, He is going to pull you through.”
― Nick Vujicic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr_5wDmX3kY

all together now "thank you God"

[DarloOnTheUp]

Just to balance it out for you

“We can't, and we should not, compare sufferings. We come together as a family of God, hand in hand. And then together coming and standing upon the promises of God, knowing that no matter who you are, no matter what you're going through, that God knows it, He is with you, He is going to pull you through.”
― Nick Vujicic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr_5wDmX3kY

all together now "thank you God"

Except that doesn't balance it out in the slightest.

What exactly is that guy thanking God for? For giving him no arms and legs but still allowing him to live a fulfilling life?

First of all, you need to prove that any god exists, and then prove that they had anything to do with his situation. I could claim a god did anything but, until I prove it directly, then it is nothing more than conjecture. It's like me claiming that I managed to get a new job because the Flying Spaghetti Monster answered my prayers, or that I got the job because of magic.

Secondly, yeah it's great that this particular man can live his life despite being born without arms and legs, and quite inspiring to be honest. But what about people who don't get that chance? What about cancer victims, miscarriages, women dying in childbirth (this was particularly common before modern science), stillborn babies, AIDS sufferers, and the examples Stephen Fry mentions such as horrible child killing diseases, insects whose entire life cycle revolves around the pain and suffering of another living being, and on and on and on and on.

Plus the Bible states that God created evil, and everything else, so your own religion teaches that God actually caused all of this himself. Yet you thank him for it? You thank him for all the horrific stuff I've mentioned above? Why is that worthy of praise? He's the one causing all of this!

It seems you're actually saying "thank you God for loving me more and not making me suffer/die/die horrifically like those other people".

So yeah, fuck you God for giving me a comfortable life whilst millions and millions around the world suffer and die horrifically for no good reason.

Moreover, the implication of "He is going to pull you through" is abhorrent and something I will actively fight against: it leads to circumstances such as parents not allowing their children medical care because they believe all they need is God and prayer, or people making light of terrible diseases or situations because "it's all part of God's plan" or "God will save me" or some other such deluded rubbish. It's deluded, dangerous, and it needs to stop.

And a final point: if God loves Nick so much, and is all-powerful, all-loving, and answers prayers, then why doesn't Nick pray that his limbs grow into properly functioning arms and legs? Oh yeah, it's because God never heals amputees, ever, which proves that God never answers prayers and therefore either doesn't exist, or he isn't all-powerful, or he isn't all-loving, or he just doesn't care. As soon as you take coincidence out of praying, that the thing you prayed for was going to happen anyways, then suddenly prayer never works on a 100% basis. Try it, it works, which is more than you can say for prayer: try praying for something which can't happen out of coincidence (such as praying for an amputee to have his limbs grow back) and it won't work.

It seems God's healing abilities coincide entirely with whatever the current level of medical science is like at the time.

[sacko_uk]

That's fine for you to have an opinion as always and I knew posting would get a wonderful bite from you...sorry statement of facts that you would state. It was just interesting to hear what you put about Mr Fry and then what someone else who is not Mr Fry would say because you have quoted someone else's opinion. Which is quite unlike you because you always deal in facts, but good to see you are keeping this thread/debate going, I hope you find the answers you continue to search for.

[Quakerz]

The only one that has bit is you sacko.

Don't come on here pretending that you were looking for a bite, you know you came on here trying to justify the idiocy called religion. Actually I'll rephrase that in fairness to you "to put in a counter argument"

You do have that right by the way, so carry on.

Just be aware that other people have the right to laugh at religious beliefs. And beliefs is all they are.

I think as well as being indoctrinated and deluded - which is a given - you also need to be incredibly thick skinned to hold religious beliefs these days, so I'll give you that. In some ways it's admirable the way that people like yourself try and defend the faith in the face of, well, you know... facts, and reality, and logic, and science, and physical, empirical stuff like that.

Just to go off on a tangent, have you ever thought how it may feel to be free of religion, and dogma and the holey babble? It's not that bad you know, honest. It really isn't. We don't even need to be told not to murder and rape people. Unbelievable I know, who'd have thought?

The worst part is watching people actually murder and rape people...more often than not in the name of religious conquest.

[sacko_uk]

You are right fella, it's awful to see it happen for whatever justification, but don't think that murder or rape is predominantly done in a religious quest, there are many different reasons but sadly religion is one of them and extremists do terrible things!

I appreciate the last questions and I spent 19 years without any of the 'holey babble' but, for me, it's only having faith that has set me free which obviously I wouldn't expect you to understand but I appreciate the questions.

I genuinely didn't come looking for a bite, I did just want to put one persons opinion against another's in relation to Mr Fry..

[DarloOnTheUp]

You are right fella, it's awful to see it happen for whatever justification, but don't think that murder or rape is predominantly done in a religious quest, there are many different reasons but sadly religion is one of them and extremists do terrible things!

These "extremists" get their justification for these "terrible things" from the same book(s) as the moderates. I mean FFS, the Bible states that you should stone gay people, stone atheists, stone adulterers, oppress women and keep them subservient to men, kill witches, stone blasphemers, kill believers of other religions, keep slaves, beat slaves, stone unruly children, force raped women to marry their rapists, and do whatever the fuck you want to the planet and the animals on it because they were put there by God for our enjoyment.

Oh and all the non-believers are going to be tortured for all eternity in Hell, a place that this all-loving God created, and this is a message which is reiterated by Jesus. Moreover, Jesus states that he has not come to change any of the laws in the Old Testament, but to uphold them, so yes the Old Testament does count (plus it contains all 613 commandments by God, Genesis, and the inception of original sin, plus God states that he is unchanging and unceasing and Jesus also is God; you can't therefore cherry pick: it ALL counts).

Great messages!

I appreciate the last questions and I spent 19 years without any of the 'holey babble' but, for me, it's only having faith that has set me free which obviously I wouldn't expect you to understand but I appreciate the questions.

Faith? Faith is not a virtue, it is gullibility.

Faith is the acceptance of something without evidence, and that is never the pathway to truth. Every religion has some sort of faith: if you accept faith as your pathway then you can't distinguish between Christianity, Judaism, Islam or any of the other thousands of religions and gods.

Why is it you rely on reason and evidence for everything else in your life, but when it comes to the ultimate truth, the most important truth, you're saying that faith is required?

What kind of god requires faith instead of evidence?

Why would you believe anything on faith?

Faith is the excuse people give when they don't have evidence.

I genuinely didn't come looking for a bite, I did just want to put one persons opinion against another's in relation to Mr Fry..

And I've already explained, in great detail, why your reply was utter rubbish yet you've decided to evade answering every single one of my points, as always.

[sacko_uk]

Yet not many Christians other than extremists in some cases do the list of commandments that you keep inferring too! You are very good at quoting all of these things but refuse to look at the bigger picture which thankfully others do and it's why only extremists justify their actions with snippets rather than context.

Faith is needed in all parts of life including religion...even in science because they deal in theories too...yes they will give you some data and evidence for things but never fully explain it all so the theories require faith!

For me, I have enough evidence in my life and millions of others that shows God's existence and I feel privileged to be part of a Church that attempts to do good in the world but I can never give you ultimate satisfaction of what you are looking for until you find it yourself! You are also right, I don't have all the answers and I am learning all the time, I even struggle at times with my faith but, for me, God always comes through and I have to hand on to faith because we all do in one way or another.

I put my trust in God who I have faith in and I've never found it gullible or a bad way of finding truth! I have only found freedom and direction but if you want x=mc2 then we will only continue to go round and round

[DarloOnTheUp]

Yet not many Christians other than extremists in some cases do the list of commandments that you keep inferring too! You are very good at quoting all of these things but refuse to look at the bigger picture which thankfully others do and it's why only extremists justify their actions with snippets rather than context.

So do these commandments by God count or not? They're in your Holy Book, and they've been used over the past 2000 years as justification for all sorts of horrific actions: the witchcraze, the suppression of women, the oppression of gay people, slavery, etc. etc. etc. And they're still used to this day.

Why are they there? Do they count or not? Why would a loving God command anyone to do any of that s***?

It's either all God's words, or none of it is. You can't cherry pick. If you do then how do you know which sections to believe and which to discard (such as the declarations on how to get into Heaven)? You don't, so by cherry picking, and not following it word for word, you've just invalidated the whole thing.

Plus if you decide yourself which bits are moral and which bits aren't then not only are you more moral than your God but you've just used your own moral compass to decide right from wrong, therefore you don't need the Bible at all.

And please tell me the context in which it is OK to own another human being and beat them, or do any of the other horrific stuff God commands, because I'd really like to know.

At least these extremists are being intellectually honest and following, word for word, what their God commands!

Faith is needed in all parts of life including religion...even in science because they deal in theories too...yes they will give you some data and evidence for things but never fully explain it all so the theories require faith!

No, no, no, no, no, no, NO! Science doesn't need faith because it has evidence!

You're misunderstanding what a theory is, so I'll explain:

A theory is the highest honour you can give something in science. It is the accepted explanation for an observed phenomena, such as gravity (yes there is a Theory of Gravity). A theory is thus backed up by vast amounts of evidence and is repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.

If such a thing existed for the existence of a God then the person who came up with it would receive a Nobel Prize, and the same goes for anyone who overturned the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection. Alas, no such theories exists, so religion is NOT grounded in evidence, and science does NOT require faith at all.

For me, I have enough evidence in my life and millions of others that shows God's existence and I feel privileged to be part of a Church that attempts to do good in the world but I can never give you ultimate satisfaction of what you are looking for until you find it yourself! You are also right, I don't have all the answers and I am learning all the time, I even struggle at times with my faith but, for me, God always comes through and I have to hand on to faith because we all do in one way or another.

There is no evidence for God's existence, absolutely nothing, and the burden of proof is on the believers unfortunately. This is why faith is required. I can go even further than that: there is no contemporary evidence that Jesus existed, Jesus didn't fulfill ANY requirements for the Jewish Messiah which is why every Jew rejects his divinity to this day, the Bible was written in stages over hundreds of years, it was re-written, edited, and wasn't even begun until about 100 years after Jesus had apparently died, the council of Nicaea in 325 decided on the question of Jesus (the trinity), plus they decided which books to keep and which to chuck out, and Christianity was only made the official religion of Rome by Constantine because he stupidly believed that the Christian God had helped him conquer the other competing Roman Emperors on the battlefield to claim the title for himself. So not only is there no evidence that any god exists but the history of your religion shows it up for being a complete and utter fabrication from start to finish!

And you don't need God to do good: I am generally a good person because I have empathy, good parents, and can decipher right from wrong. Give to charity, help the needy, be a good person; you don't need God for any of that.

You say God always comes through? No, he has never come through, you've just interpreted an event in that way. God has never spoken to you, he never answers your prayers directly (i.e. by talking to you), and there is no evidence that he even exists.

I never use faith in my life, ever, and neither should you.

I put my trust in God who I have faith in and I've never found it gullible or a bad way of finding truth! I have only found freedom and direction but if you want x=mc2 then we will only continue to go round and round

Like I said, faith is not the pathway to truth, else wise how do you distinguish between faiths (such as between Islamic faith and Christian faith)?

I'll put it this way: we've come to a disagreement over an issue, so how do we set about elevating one side of the argument over another, and distinguishing reality from fiction?

There is only one way: evidence. Faith is nothing but gullibility and will not lead to the truth (that is if you actually care about the truth; if you don't then we may as well stop talking right now).

[sacko_uk]

Well we can just end it there then as always, I don't see faith in that way at all and just because you say it is dos the make it true either! Just as in the same way me telling you about it not being gullible doesn't make it true for you.

[DarloOnTheUp]

Well we can just end it there then as always, I don't see faith in that way at all and just because you say it is dos the make it true either! Just as in the same way me telling you about it not being gullible doesn't make it true for you.

I'm happy to go on but you always end up evading the points I make and running off with your tail between your legs.

Like I said, how do you distinguish between faiths then, such as between Islamic faith and Christian faith?

How do you distinguish between reality and fiction with faith? You can't.

It's gullibility, accepting something without evidence, and that will never lead to truth.

[DarloOnTheUp]

Faith is just the excuse people use when they don't have evidence. If you had evidence, why would you need faith?

And if you don't have evidence for something, why should I believe you?

If I did, wouldn't that make me gullible?

Yes, yes it would.

[sacko_uk]

Not gullible, faith is still something that is used in so many areas of life and not just religion. You put faith in people, technology etc...it's not just something that is gullible and for religion.

The evidence is there for me and yes it requires faith, as does science etc...as they still work in theories with facts...as does religion. Science has not proved God for you but science also does not disprove God either, some scientists are Christians, others are not.

I realise the Old Testament poses some real tough question marks for you and for alot of believers but if you look into the covenants with God in the OT and the fulfillment of a new covenant through Jesus, it will answer SOME of your questions. There is no cherry picking and if all of those things were to happen, Jesus and millions of Christians today would be doing them...but He didn't and we don't. Sadly, extremists do, which gives all religions a bad name.

As for which being the correct religion, Christianity is, simply based on the fact that Jesus said He is the only way to God in a nutshell. I realise this will not satisfy you and cause further insults and problems, but that is how I approach it from my point of view. I have much respect for other religions but Christianity is the right one.

I don't have many problems with discussing with you, but I don't leave with a tail between my legs or get upset by your own views...thoughts. In fact, I have an admiration that you have seek answers, offer your viewpoint etc. Just leave out the insults if possible, I don't expect that what I say will magically change your opinion or satisfy what you are looking for, but nor does your own views change my own opinion.

Hope that last bit makes sense to you anyway.

[Quakerz]

The evidence is there for me and yes it requires faith, as does science etc...as they still work in theories with facts...as does religion.

Utterly ridiculous. I can't believe you are trying to make the two things sound alike. I can't believe that you actually believe that either.

Scientific theory does NOT require ANY faith because to put it bluntly, scientific theory IS fact. A repeatable, testable fact. A fact backed up with volumes of evidence. And I mean proper solid, hard evidence, not he said she said 3rd party hearsay "evidence"

Religious belief - I won't call it theory because it isn't a fact and is not backed up by any solid evidence whatsoever, nothing is testable or repeatable.

You are mixing up the words "theory" and "hypothesis" which to be fair many people do.

Theory = fact.

Hypothesis = explanation posited to explain something, which then needs testing and verifying in order to become theory. Lots of people think that a hypothesis is a theory. It isn't.

It isn't helped by the fact that common language leads people to say "Hey, I have a theory about this..." when they mean they have an idea about something or a hypothesis.

This is what leads you to (wrongly) believe that scientific theory and religious theory are the one and the same and both have facts and both require faith. You couldn't be wronger and whether you know it or not it I think you need to accept that we're talking chalk and cheese here, not like for like.

[sacko_uk]

I see what you are saying Q and maybe it's the phrasing that is wrong in what I am attempting to say. The big bang, the theory of evolution etc still have many question marks...I don't disagree they have evidence but they are not universally accepted as complete, undeniable truths. In fact, not all scientists say that both are truths, so they do have evidence, but they also require faith in the fact that what has been found is totally acceptable...which it isn't.

I'm not putting science down or saying it doesnt work in facts, because it does, but its theories are not all accepted, even in the world of science. Therefore, it does require some faith because a theory does not mean fact...it does have evidence but total fact or we would all believe the same things.

Religion does have facts, historical documents and so on. Science too has facts but not all theories are accepted by all people. That is where I am trying to compare perhaps. I appreciate the viewpoint Q.