Hunting..

[theoriginalfatcat]

The Government has said that it will bring forward a motion to have a free vote on the repeal of the 2004 hunting act.

Our local MP (William Hague) has stated that in the event of a free vote he would vote to repeal the act, stating that "In my judgement the Hunting Act does nothing to protect wild animals and, in many cases, is actually detrimental to animal welfare when other methods of control are deployed, a number of which can be indiscriminate".

Now obviously with this hunting thing there are class issues involved, but leaving these to one side and sticking purely with the cruelty to animals question, I simply disagree with his views. and he certainly won't be representing me when votes with the intention of bringing back "The Hunt" and all the barbarity that goes with it.

This isn't a political post, it's about animal cruelty. If you don't like the idea of hunting being brought back and Hague is your MP, then let him know your thoughts.

[Bogratsteve]

But it also does not cover just middle class fox hunting but working class hare coursing also.

Tbh fox hunting has never stopped and there are lots of accidents every year although a lot of jobs have been lost in the working class.

All the Hare coursing ban has done is make the police invest vast amounts of resources chasing lads and their lurchers all over the place and lots of land owners/game keepers been injured confronting them.

No fewer hares are killed but now it's just in a non legal way and uncontrolled I'm afraid.

The cruelty aspect is a different kettle of fish but whilst we have dog owners abusing their "pets" and kids being abused the welfare of vermin matters very little to me.

The countryside was running very nicely until the city slickers and MP's got involved in something they did not understand or should have concerned them, they simply outlawed some types of vermin control and sent it underground.

I cannot see it ever been repealed tbh

[DarloOnTheUp]

Vermin? Is that how you bring yourself to be able to kill something, by labeling it vermin and therefore creating your own form of cognitive dissonance?

All life should be treated as sacred.

[theoriginalfatcat]

I reckon that Steve (Bograt) knows more about wildlife goings on than I do so in a way I don't dismiss his opinion - however to quote from my original post Mr Hague says that....

"In my judgement the Hunting Act does nothing to protect wild animals and, in many cases, is actually detrimental to animal welfare when other methods of control are deployed, a number of which can be indiscriminate".[/quote]

His logic says to me - because the other methods of "control" are cruel hunting is OK - !

Two wrongs don't make a right and if wildlife needs to be culled for some reason then all methods should be as humane as possible.

Steve, I've been told Deers get attacked by the hounds, are they classed as Vermin ?

[Bogratsteve]

Steve, I've been told Deers get attacked by the hounds, are they classed as Vermin ?

I know once upon a time the Deerhound was used for coursing deer but my understanding is that died out a long time ago, Deer are classed as game and dogs are still used in the pursuit of hunting game but more as tracking dogs following the shooting of them, a large variety of breeds are used from Labs to Munsterlanders.

I think although not sure Hague is referring to the increase in traps/poisoning/shooting/falconry methods for fox control which IF undertaken correctly is effective BUT in many cases it is not which results in injured animals been left.

My own view is after witnessing many fox hunts in my capacity as gamekeeper is that they are quite ineffective in general and an excuse for a jolly, there were some serious working class hunters who did the job well.

Myself i'm pleased it became banned as there are much more effective ways of controlling the foxes, my views differ on Hare control.

To answer DOTU it is well documented and legislated what is and what is regarded as a protected species and what is not, the animals and birds on the general license as issued under the countryside and wildlife act of 1981 state this clearly and the general term for these animals are vermin so i'm not trying to justify anything, it is what it is.

Regardless of points of view Foxes need to be controlled to protect livestock and babies in London town from being bitten!!

Hares when over populated cause major crop damage.

Both have cause an increase in costs or livestock welfare which always seems to be forgotten about, seeing a lamb freshly born half torn apart or 50 dead chickens ripped apart is not a pleasant sight just like a fox attacked by dogs.

[Fatty eats roadkill]

Considering DOTU is anti religion he comes across like a Buddhist!

Are you a big fat Buddha DOTU?

[theoriginalfatcat]

my views differ on Hare control.

It's Hague control that concerns me.

[Feethams 1966]

Everyone has their own views on this just as everyone has the right to vote for who they want, but I want to read about Darlo, surely this thread should be somwehere else. Personally I have no views either way on fox hunting, am becoming fed up of hearing other peoples views on it and am more concerned about our next game on Saturday and the result.

[AndyPark]

"but I want to read about Darlo, surely this thread should be somwehere else"
It's in the off-topic room for this very reason.

People have different views/opinions on hunting, so let them discuss it in this thread.

[Bogratsteve]

my views differ on Hare control.

It's Hague control that concerns me.

Lol he is one strange cookie, I went to Richmond school and never heard anyone in Richmond talk like he does (he is from Richmond if I remember right!!)

[Fatty eats roadkill]

He's from wath upon dearne in South Yorkshire where his family owned a pop factory

[Bogratsteve]

He's from wath upon dearne in South Yorkshire where his family owned a pop factory

Oh, well that makes his accent even weirder lol

[Trike1]

It's Hague control that concerns me.[/quote]
Lol he is one strange cookie, I went to Richmond school and never heard anyone in Richmond talk like he does (he is from Richmond if I remember right!!)[/quote]


what year as i also went there till 1983/84 unsure of year lol

[Bogratsteve]

I did 83/84 till 85

[grytters]

I was under the impression there wasn't going to be a debate in the lifetime of this parliament due to time pressure.

Is there now a possibility of the free vote on this?

[theoriginalfatcat]

There seems to be mixed messages about this. Mr Hague says "the Government has stated it will bring forward a motion on a free vote" and it seems that the Prime Minister would support the lifting of the hunting ban, so it could well happen -- however, they might decide to kick it in to the long grass for now, as it will be time consuming and controversial.

[Free_Transfer]

Vermin? Is that how you bring yourself to be able to kill something, by labeling it vermin and therefore creating your own form of cognitive dissonance?

All life should be treated as sacred.

Please stop commenting on things you know nothing about.

Much appreciated.

[DarloOnTheUp]

Vermin? Is that how you bring yourself to be able to kill something, by labeling it vermin and therefore creating your own form of cognitive dissonance?

All life should be treated as sacred.

Please stop commenting on things you know nothing about.

Much appreciated.

How about if you disagree with me, you argue your point, instead of using the "you don't know what you're talking about" line. Much appreciated.

If there's anything in particular about my comment that you disagree with then I'll happily debate it with you.

[Fatty eats roadkill]

If people didn't kill vermin then we'd be back in the dark ages with rats as big as cats.

I like the fact people kill vermin which aids my well being and everyone else's.

Do you wear any leather or only from cows that die naturally?

[theoriginalfatcat]

Fatty, I'm not a veggie or a hunt Sab.

I understand that to keep a balance certain animals from time to time need to be culled. All I'm saying is (Feethams 1966 look away now or switch channels to Virtual Feethams) if it has to happen, surely it's not beyond our means to make sure it's done as humanely as possible.

I.E. not as a reason for a huge gathering of hunters on a social day out. Their main intention being to satisfy their bloodlust and to take sick pleasure in witnessing a kill.

It's not sport - it's animal abuse.

Anyway - I'm repeating myself so that's me about done.

[Free_Transfer]

Vermin? Is that how you bring yourself to be able to kill something, by labeling it vermin and therefore creating your own form of cognitive dissonance?

All life should be treated as sacred.

Please stop commenting on things you know nothing about.

Much appreciated.

How about if you disagree with me, you argue your point, instead of using the "you don't know what you're talking about" line. Much appreciated.

If there's anything in particular about my comment that you disagree with then I'll happily debate it with you.

But you don't have a clue what you are going on about. You continually wade into these hunting debates without having ever stepped foot in the countryside! If you had any experience or knowledge past what you've read on the internet then i'd take you more seriously.

People use the term 'vermin' as it covers several species of what are considered 'pest' animals. If you prefer in future i will rattle them all off, just so you can't sit there and make up shite that people are creating 'cognitive disassociation' by labeling them by anything other than their correct name. A rabbit is a rabbit, a fox a fox, i don't need to call them by another name to humanely dispatch one!

You are staunch anti religion and yet say all animal life is sacred, a Buddhist ideal. Have you got a heifer residing in your living room?

The best bit is i bet you eat meat...

[Free_Transfer]

Fatty, I'm not a veggie or a hunt Sab.

I understand that to keep a balance certain animals from time to time need to be culled. All I'm saying is (Feethams 1966 look away now or switch channels to Virtual Feethams) if it has to happen, surely it's not beyond our means to make sure it's done as humanely as possible.

I.E. not as a reason for a huge gathering of hunters on a social day out. Their main intention being to satisfy their bloodlust and to take sick pleasure in witnessing a kill.

It's not sport - it's animal abuse.

Anyway - I'm repeating myself so that's me about done.

The main issue i have with hunting being illegal is the amount of scabby mangy skinny buggers that are about the place now, thin coat, no bushy tail...hardly a great existence is it?

Almost cruel...

[Fatty eats roadkill]

We will need the hunters to look after us when the Chinese take over the world and a rearguard action is fought from the hills. They will be the only ones keeping the supermarkets stocked and able to set traps and shoot things.

[Free_Transfer]

We will need the hunters to look after us when the Chinese take over the world and a rearguard action is fought from the hills. They will be the only ones keeping the supermarkets stocked and able to set traps and shoot things.

Quite...anyway everyone knows you're not a real man if you can't hunt, skin and cook your food...

[DarloOnTheUp]

But you don't have a clue what you are going on about. You continually wade into these hunting debates without having ever stepped foot in the countryside! If you had any experience or knowledge past what you've read on the internet then i'd take you more seriously.

People use the term 'vermin' as it covers several species of what are considered 'pest' animals. If you prefer in future i will rattle them all off, just so you can't sit there and make up shite that people are creating 'cognitive disassociation' by labeling them by anything other than their correct name. A rabbit is a rabbit, a fox a fox, i don't need to call them by another name to humanely dispatch one!

You are staunch anti religion and yet say all animal life is sacred, a Buddhist ideal. Have you got a heifer residing in your living room?

The best bit is i bet you eat meat...

You tell me not to comment on things I know nothing about before you then decide to comment on things you definitely know nothing about: my personal experiences. I actually used to live on a farm for 8 years and I regularly go hiking in the countryside and up mountains because I love nature and enjoy the exercise, although my opinion would still be the same regardless.

I don't really know enough about Buddhism to comment on that, but if their teachings coincide with mine, then fair enough. My opinions are my own though and not based on what any religion tells me to do, which is how it should be. If someone tells you something is moral and you agree with them simply because of who is telling you (Jesus, God, Buddha, whatever) then you're not acting morally anyways: you're just doing what you're told. I tend to question everything so I wouldn't make a good religious person.

With regards to the actual debate, I appreciate the concept of nature preservation and I understand any killing is done humanely. Bogratsteve made a good point about foxes killing chickens etc., so in that instance it's either us doing the killing or them.

My only point is that when it comes to humans, individuality is suddenly important, yet animals are killed for the sake of animals as a whole. So we've created this divide whereby individual animals are killed for the good of the whole, yet imagine if we started doing that for humans? Suddenly your morals and empathy would tell you this is wrong, and so you have to rely on a falsely created cognitive dissonance to enable your conscience to allow you to kill everything else which isn't human. And so terms like "vermin" and "culling" (words have a strange dis-associative ability) merely propagate that cognitive dissonance, allowing you to mentally block what you're actually doing.

But then evolution has developed in a way that life depends on other life to survive, so perhaps I should accept things as they are, no matter how horrific. It just seems like humanity's solution for everything is to kill the fuck out of things.

And don't get me started on the monstrosity that is the meat industry! There's too much money involved in that though, and humans have evolved to rely on meat, so I doubt it's ever going to change unfortunately.

[Spyman]

The main issue i have with hunting being illegal is the amount of scabby mangy skinny buggers that are about the place now, thin coat, no bushy tail...hardly a great existence is it?

Almost cruel...

What has life in 'artlepool's got to do with this debate?


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[Bogratsteve]

Bravo Spyman, Bravo

[Bogratsteve]

Good post DOTU, respect for your views on that reply

[Free_Transfer]

Yep top post DOTU. Respect. Please accept my apology for my incorrect assumption. I did believe you were just another towny hunt sab with no clue but i can see you've got a bit more about you than that!

Anyway, anyone for pheasant jambalaya tomorrow ??? Mind your teeth on the shot though....

[Quakerz]

A rabbit is a rabbit, a fox a fox, i don't need to call them by another name to humanely dispatch one!

By humanely dispatch, you mean shoot fuck out of, yes?

You are staunch anti religion and yet say all animal life is sacred, a Buddhist ideal. Have you got a heifer residing in your living room?

You seem to think that being pro life is a bad thing? You also seem surprised that an atheist would regard life as sacred? It doesn't take a genius to work out that if you believe in no god and afterlife, then it is likely that you realise you have only one life and value it pretty highly - and it's not surpise that empathetic people will extend that value of life to others.

I draw the line at maggots and midges myself, though.