EU Referendum

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lo36789
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by lo36789 » Tue May 31, 2016 12:28 pm

Surprising that there are those in the left who cannot see inequality and social deprivation beyond our own borders. The EU and political union is he only vehicle to address that.

"I'm all for equality as long as we are more equal that others" ey?

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DarloOnTheUp
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Tue May 31, 2016 3:07 pm

lo36789 wrote:Surprising that there are those in the left who cannot see inequality and social deprivation beyond our own borders. The EU and political union is he only vehicle to address that.

"I'm all for equality as long as we are more equal that others" ey?
Can you not be concerned with both?

I know I am.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by The Big Dawg » Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:47 am

The fucking state of the s*** lo and perpetual knob head love it are coming out with is unbelievable :lol:

I will however, be voting to remain. Purely from a financial point of view you understand. We'll be better off remaining with the EU in the medium term given the trading benefits it gives us, plus our status as a world financial services hub will take a hit with many establishments likely moving their European bases to Frankfurt, Paris or Dublin if we remove ourselves. Living in london this is a big concern of mine.

The immigration thing is a red herring. If we leave the EU we'll have control over eastern european immigration, but this will be replaced by necessary cheap labour being sourced from the commonwealth (see India, Pakistan) instead. We've already seen what this has done to parts of London and West Yorkshire in terms of completely unintergrated immigrant societies (apart from bellend love it, who adores it!)
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loan_star
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by loan_star » Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:26 am

The Big Dawg wrote: The immigration thing is a red herring. If we leave the EU we'll have control over eastern european immigration, but this will be replaced by necessary cheap labour being sourced from the commonwealth (see India, Pakistan) instead. We've already seen what this has done to parts of London and West Yorkshire in terms of completely unintergrated immigrant societies (apart from bellend love it, who adores it!)
Perhaps if we got some of the feckless who prefer a life on benefits to get out and do some proper work then we wouldnt need so many immigrants to do the cheap labour jobs!

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:27 am

The Big Dawg wrote: We'll be better off remaining with the EU in the medium term given the trading benefits it gives us
FFS :roll:

I thought, by now, even Remainians had accepted that there wouldn't be any barriers to trade with the rEU upon Brexit.
Wolfgang Schaeuble wrote:To my country's car manufacturers, please note that following the UK's decision to Leave the EU, we will not be agreeing a trade deal with them. You will have to find another market that is not the 5th largest economy in the world to sell your cars to. And that's that - Mutti's not for turning on this despite the tens of billions of euros it will cost Germany.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by The Big Dawg » Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:03 pm

You're naive at best, and an absolute mug at worst if you dont think leaving the EU will have an effect on the UKs ability to negotiate trade terms on an international basis.
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:24 pm

The Big Dawg wrote:You're naive at best, and an absolute mug at worst if you dont think leaving the EU will have an effect on the UKs ability to negotiate trade terms on an international basis.
You're going to have explain what this effect is because I'm not seeing anything problematic.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Sussex07 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:04 pm

love it! wrote:I read today that 6.8% of jobs are taken by EU citizens, with an increase of 20,000 in the past 3 months. This is on the back of an overall increase in employment. The out campaign who claim all EU citizens working in the UK are stealing our jobs are wrong.

Having people from different cultures enhances our country and I adore visiting different areas of the country to witness the diversity it has brought. If people think that immigration it taking something away from our heritage or the society we live in then that is just someone who hates change.
Did you mean to post this at least 4 years ago by mistake ?

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Sussex07 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:11 pm

loan_star wrote:
The Big Dawg wrote: The immigration thing is a red herring. If we leave the EU we'll have control over eastern european immigration, but this will be replaced by necessary cheap labour being sourced from the commonwealth (see India, Pakistan) instead. We've already seen what this has done to parts of London and West Yorkshire in terms of completely unintergrated immigrant societies (apart from bellend love it, who adores it!)
Perhaps if we got some of the feckless who prefer a life on benefits to get out and do some proper work then we wouldnt need so many immigrants to do the cheap labour jobs!
Spot on loan star..

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:16 pm

Sussex07 wrote:
loan_star wrote:
The Big Dawg wrote: The immigration thing is a red herring. If we leave the EU we'll have control over eastern european immigration, but this will be replaced by necessary cheap labour being sourced from the commonwealth (see India, Pakistan) instead. We've already seen what this has done to parts of London and West Yorkshire in terms of completely unintergrated immigrant societies (apart from bellend love it, who adores it!)
Perhaps if we got some of the feckless who prefer a life on benefits to get out and do some proper work then we wouldnt need so many immigrants to do the cheap labour jobs!
Spot on loan star..
Thirded.

Oh, and have I missed Jizz's response to my previous post? :shh:

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by The Big Dawg » Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:21 pm

I didn't know you were desperately refreshing the page awaiting my answer or I would have replied earlier Jacobs ;)

There's not much to add is there? If you don't realise that we will see a short to mid term dip the economy after brexit, and you don't appreciate there is a very real chance the individual trade deals we broker will not be able to counter said dip in the long run, then you are (as previously stated) very naive or a complete mug.

Now get back in your box and stop getting so wound up by strangers on the internet disagreeing with you :shh:
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:11 am

The Big Dawg wrote:I didn't know you were desperately refreshing the page awaiting my answer or I would have replied earlier Jacobs ;)

There's not much to add is there? If you don't realise that we will see a short to mid term dip the economy after brexit, and you don't appreciate there is a very real chance the individual trade deals we broker will not be able to counter said dip in the long run, then you are (as previously stated) very naive or a complete mug.

Now get back in your box and stop getting so wound up by strangers on the internet disagreeing with you :shh:
You've flipped-flapped.

I asked what this 'effect' on the UK's ability to execute trade deals would be after leaving the EU and you've still not answered. Your post above appears to be in response to a question that has not been asked :crazy:

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by grytters » Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:14 am

‘Voting Brexit is like being on a night out with that mate who, in a night club says, “this is rubbish, let’s go somewhere else”. Then when you leave you realise he has no idea where to go, and the place you’ve left won’t let you back in. Without a decent follow-up plan a leave vote could see the UK standing in a kebab shop arguing about whose fault it is.’
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lo36789
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by lo36789 » Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:25 am

Henley wrote:
The Big Dawg wrote:I didn't know you were desperately refreshing the page awaiting my answer or I would have replied earlier Jacobs ;)

There's not much to add is there? If you don't realise that we will see a short to mid term dip the economy after brexit, and you don't appreciate there is a very real chance the individual trade deals we broker will not be able to counter said dip in the long run, then you are (as previously stated) very naive or a complete mug.

Now get back in your box and stop getting so wound up by strangers on the internet disagreeing with you :shh:
You've flipped-flapped.

I asked what this 'effect' on the UK's ability to execute trade deals would be after leaving the EU and you've still not answered. Your post above appears to be in response to a question that has not been asked :crazy:
No he hasn't at all. He has said that immediately these things will take time and that time will breed uncertainty and will also cost a hell of a lot.

And as he clearly said there is a real chance that they won't counter that dip once they are in place. Why are we so adament that these other trading blocks are desperate for something we produce - there is no suggestion they are not already meeting their demand - so what does that do...cuts prices.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:41 pm

grytters wrote:‘Voting Brexit is like being on a night out with that mate who, in a night club says, “this is rubbish, let’s go somewhere else”. Then when you leave you realise he has no idea where to go, and the place you’ve left won’t let you back in. Without a decent follow-up plan a leave vote could see the UK standing in a kebab shop arguing about whose fault it is.’
This was an irrelevant analogy when I first saw it the other day and it continues to be irrelevant.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:49 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Henley wrote:
The Big Dawg wrote:I didn't know you were desperately refreshing the page awaiting my answer or I would have replied earlier Jacobs ;)

There's not much to add is there? If you don't realise that we will see a short to mid term dip the economy after brexit, and you don't appreciate there is a very real chance the individual trade deals we broker will not be able to counter said dip in the long run, then you are (as previously stated) very naive or a complete mug.

Now get back in your box and stop getting so wound up by strangers on the internet disagreeing with you :shh:
You've flipped-flapped.

I asked what this 'effect' on the UK's ability to execute trade deals would be after leaving the EU and you've still not answered. Your post above appears to be in response to a question that has not been asked :crazy:
No he hasn't at all. He has said that immediately these things will take time and that time will breed uncertainty and will also cost a hell of a lot.

And as he clearly said there is a real chance that they won't counter that dip once they are in place. Why are we so adament that these other trading blocks are desperate for something we produce - there is no suggestion they are not already meeting their demand - so what does that do...cuts prices.
He did not answer the question. Can't you read?

He said Brexit would have an effect on the UK's ability to execute trade deals. To execute trade deals. To execute trade deals. I've repeated it in the hope that your soft matter takes it in.

He has not explained how Brexit will have an effect on the UK's ability to execute trade deals.

I didn't ask about his thoughts on the economy post-Brexit. I asked how Brexit will have an effect on the UK's ability to execute trade deals.

For the hard of understanding, it has not been explained how Brexit will have an effect on the UK's ability to execute trade deals :roll:

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by lo36789 » Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:14 pm

Henley wrote:Can't you read?

He said Brexit would have an effect on the UK's ability to execute trade deals. To execute trade deals. To execute trade deals. I've repeated it in the hope that your soft matter takes it in.
The Big Dawg wrote:You're naive at best, and an absolute mug at worst if you dont think leaving the EU will have an effect on the UKs ability to negotiate trade terms on an international basis.
Awkward...

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:13 am

lo36789 wrote:
Henley wrote:Can't you read?

He said Brexit would have an effect on the UK's ability to execute trade deals. To execute trade deals. To execute trade deals. I've repeated it in the hope that your soft matter takes it in.
The Big Dawg wrote:You're naive at best, and an absolute mug at worst if you dont think leaving the EU will have an effect on the UKs ability to negotiate trade terms on an international basis.
Awkward...
???

Execute or negotiate - same thing in this context.

And STILL no explanation of how Brexit will affect the execution (negotiation) of trade deals.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Magical Quakers » Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:03 am

Surely the point is that currently we have a free trade agreement with our European partners.

If we leave then this agreement will also be left behind, although there is a 2 year window whilst we exit the EU to have negotiations. If we don't try to change the terms on which we currently trade then this will probably pass.

But if we try to change the terms or the EU decide we aren't a priority any future trades will require negotiation, which may take time (based on the list of negotiations already taking place http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2 ... 118238.pdf.

You point Henley presumably is that you see no problem whatsoever in getting new trade agreements signed within the 2 years.

Big Dawg is just pointing out the possibility that this won't happen and then the ability to execute trade deals will be impacted.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by The Big Dawg » Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:21 am

Relax Jacobs, be cool. Responding to posts on a non league football club’s sub forum which boasts about 5 regular visitors is fairly low on most people’s to do list.

Anyway, wall of text coming up.

Despite what Liam Fox says, we’re not going to just ‘negotiate a free trade deal’ with the EU. They’re not going to let us leave, enact the immigration and legislative changes that we wanted and that they rejected whilst we were members, and then sign a deal giving us all the trading benefits we had when we were still in the bloc. All that will do is give other wavering states (Sweden for example) ther impression that they could leave, have their cake, and eat it. Seems unlikely the EU are going to agree that, doesn’t it?

So what about joining the EEA, like Norway or Iceland? Makes sense, but we’d still have to pay something into the EU budget, and accept the free movement of people from the EU in return. Paying subsidies into the EU and unconstrained movement across borders are two of the leave campaigns biggest bugbears, so its hardly an option for them to go down that route.

A tariff free trade deal such as the one Turkey has with the EU would work, as they don’t have to accept free movement of people in return. However, they primarily trade manufactured goods with the EU. Our primary export to the EU is services (mainly of the financial variety), which the EU will not let cross their boundary without accepting free movement in return – so again, no dice if the Brexit brigade are truly hung up on that issue.

So we’d probably have to fall back on the WTO framework, with deals negotiated individually with the EU, other trading blocs, and individual countries such as the US and China. This would give us the power of self determination in terms of controlling our borders and legislative processes, but would be hugely time consuming to bring in to place (thus extending the period of uncertainty and subsequent downturn we will see immediately after enacting Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty). Also who would negotiate these deals for us? All trade negotiations have been ceded to the EU since 1973 – our civil service doesn’t actually have the capacity or experience to do this, and won’t anytime soon. That’s before we get on to the fact that we’d then be stung with 10% export tariffs on things we sell to the EU (who take nearly 50% of our exports), which will pretty much destroy manufacturing in the UK (bye Nissan!), will see all the foreign banks we currently service jump ship to the EU to maintain their passporting rights, and will make us a less appealing prospect to the US in any future trade deals (due to their clear preference for trade deals with blocs like the EU and ASEAN as opposed to individual states).

Apologies for the essay, but you did insist. I’m not totally sold on the EU, and agree with some of the accusations its critics level at it. However, from an economic and trade point of view, there isn’t a coherent argument to leave imo, and I think post Brexit it will be difficult if not impossible to agree deals that will maintain the economic benefits we receive from trade agreements within the EU.
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:24 am

Magical Quakers wrote:Surely the point is that currently we have a free trade agreement with our European partners.

If we leave then this agreement will also be left behind, although there is a 2 year window whilst we exit the EU to have negotiations. If we don't try to change the terms on which we currently trade then this will probably pass.

But if we try to change the terms or the EU decide we aren't a priority any future trades will require negotiation, which may take time (based on the list of negotiations already taking place http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2 ... 118238.pdf.

You point Henley presumably is that you see no problem whatsoever in getting new trade agreements signed within the 2 years.

Big Dawg is just pointing out the possibility that this won't happen and then the ability to execute trade deals will be impacted.
No, my point is that Jazz said that leaving the EU will affect the UK's ability to negotiate trade deals. As it goes without saying that the UK will have to negotiate with the EU upon a Leave vote, logic dictates that he must have been referring to NON-EU trade deals. Hence, why I questioned why a Brexit would affect such trade negotiations.

EDIT:

In fact, having just re-read what he said, it didn't even require to be deduced as he said:
You're naive at best, and an absolute mug at worst if you dont think leaving the EU will have an effect on the UKs ability to negotiate trade terms on an international basis.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Magical Quakers » Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:34 pm

Aren't most of those international deals being done jointly as the EU though?

So for the ones I linked to that are ongoing with the EU an other countries we would need to complete our own negotiations, which therefore could impact on trade.

Obviously there will be countries where we already have a UK only treaty in place and that will remain unaffected.

It would be good for the Leave campaign to produce a world map showing the state of trade agreements and where there will be no effect.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by The Big Dawg » Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:52 pm

Henley wrote:
Magical Quakers wrote:Surely the point is that currently we have a free trade agreement with our European partners.

If we leave then this agreement will also be left behind, although there is a 2 year window whilst we exit the EU to have negotiations. If we don't try to change the terms on which we currently trade then this will probably pass.

But if we try to change the terms or the EU decide we aren't a priority any future trades will require negotiation, which may take time (based on the list of negotiations already taking place http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2 ... 118238.pdf.

You point Henley presumably is that you see no problem whatsoever in getting new trade agreements signed within the 2 years.

Big Dawg is just pointing out the possibility that this won't happen and then the ability to execute trade deals will be impacted.
No, my point is that Jazz said that leaving the EU will affect the UK's ability to negotiate trade deals. As it goes without saying that the UK will have to negotiate with the EU upon a Leave vote, logic dictates that he must have been referring to NON-EU trade deals. Hence, why I questioned why a Brexit would affect such trade negotiations.

EDIT:

In fact, having just re-read what he said, it didn't even require to be deduced as he said:
You're naive at best, and an absolute mug at worst if you dont think leaving the EU will have an effect on the UKs ability to negotiate trade terms on an international basis.
I'm not sure why logic would dictate I was talking purely about non EU trade deals? Why wouldnt negotiations with the EU fit within the term 'international'?

They're no more domestic that the US, or Canada, or the ASEAN bloc, and once we leave they become just another international entity that we'll have to fight for a comparable deal with.
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:57 pm

Magical Quakers wrote:Aren't most of those international deals being done jointly as the EU though?

So for the ones I linked to that are ongoing with the EU an other countries we would need to complete our own negotiations, which therefore could impact on trade.

Obviously there will be countries where we already have a UK only treaty in place and that will remain unaffected.

It would be good for the Leave campaign to produce a world map showing the state of trade agreements and where there will be no effect.
Taking Canada, for example, I see no reason why they and the UK could simply not cut and paste the terms of the already existing draft EU/Canadian agreement and apply it. IIRC, it's already been agreed but for the Romanians not signing off because they're not getting the visa arrangements they want.

This is a perfect example of why the UK, being on its own and therefore far more nimble, will be able to conclude agreements far quicker than the EU ever could.

As for which non-EU nation trade deals we'd have to re-do because we're outside of the EU, I can't think of any that would be an immediate priority.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:14 pm

The Big Dawg wrote:I'm not sure why logic would dictate I was talking purely about non EU trade deals? Why wouldnt negotiations with the EU fit within the term 'international'?

They're no more domestic that the US, or Canada, or the ASEAN bloc, and once we leave they become just another international entity that we'll have to fight for a comparable deal with.
Because it's stating the obvious to highlight that leaving a bloc will have an effect when you negotiate with that bloc post-departure!

Why else mention the word 'international'? To avoid confusion with inter-planetary trade-deals?

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by The Big Dawg » Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:28 pm

Because quite simply the EU will become another international (pro tip - all countries outside of the UK are generally described as internatrional) trade deal we'd have to organise from our new position as a single state.

Given they purchase nearly half of our exports, they'd also be the most important and troublesome bloc to deal with.

I don't know how you this is creating such confusion for you.
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:48 pm

The Big Dawg wrote:Because quite simply the EU will become another international (pro tip - all countries outside of the UK are generally described as internatrional) trade deal we'd have to organise from our new position as a single state.

Given they purchase nearly half of our exports, they'd also be the most important and troublesome bloc to deal with.

I don't know how you this is creating such confusion for you.
*sigh*

This is like teaching Baldrick to count with beans.

Once again, you said:
You're naive at best, and an absolute mug at worst if you dont think leaving the EU will have an effect on the UKs ability to negotiate trade terms on an international basis.
What was the point of adding 'on an international basis' to the end of the above sentence? What other basis would the UK look to negotiate trade terms? Inter-Planetary? Inter-Galactic?

In light of your above tautology, it is now evident that my failure was to view you as being more intelligent and meticulous than you actually are.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by The Big Dawg » Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:16 pm

Ahhh, good old Jacobs, doesn’t know his arse from his elbow on the subject he’s waxing lyrical about so resorts to ridiculous straw man arguments and pithy insults ;)

As stated several times before, after Brexit the EU will become just another international entity, no different to ASEAN or the US or China, with whom a trade deal will need to be negotiated by a single state UK. However, its not just the european union a lone UK will have to strike deals with, its countries and blocs from across the globe. Now as far as anyone with basic skills of comprehension is concerned, the term international sums up this global process quite nicely.

No one else seems to have any trouble with this oh-so-difficult concept pal.
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Fatty eats roadkill » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:18 pm

Now that it is illegal to go on strike who would we go to to fight against that if we left?
Waiting for Raj to shaft them!

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Sussex07 » Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:18 pm

We escape the shackles of the EU, and then go onto to win Euro 2016..it's all on the cards,lads... :thumbup:

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