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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:01 pm 
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It depends on the concessions parties in the centre are prepared to take in their manifestos to entice those further right and left. Cameron's failed gamble will really have them thinking twice about doing the same thing.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:40 pm 
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Sweden many years ago drove on the left like us. The Government held a vote on whether to carry on driving on the left or switch to the right. I believe around 90% voted to continue to drive on the left. The Government just ignored the vote and told everybody had to drive on the right on a certain date!

As I said before the referendum vote was counted, whoever lost needed to accept the result and we needed to move on.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:27 pm 
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Has anyone else seen this piece about Article 50 (http://jackofkent.com/2016/06/why-the-a ... important/) today? It's definitely worth a read if you get the chance.

As an aside, did anyone else think Boris Johnson and Michael Gove both looked as miserable as sin yesterday? I didn't expect them to be high-fiving each other on stage or anything, but you would've thought at least one of them would've been able to crack a smile. Seemed a bit odd to me...

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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:55 pm 
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Prehaps they heard that Darlo Pete was putting his name forward to become Prime Mimister!!!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:07 am 
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Darlogramps wrote:
Rather more worryingly Labour MP David Lammy has called on parliament to reject the result.


I confess I'd never heard of him so I had to look him up. It'll be interesting to see which of of his colleagues (if any) voice their support for his idea.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:16 am 
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OHDFC wrote:
Mr_Tibbs wrote:
Vokuhila wrote:
It's not unlike what happened with our club - no pain, no gain. Look where we are now and start dreaming.


Not sure about that, there was no choice with the club.
I was speaking more about the fear of what comes next which is what I felt the first time Gary Brown led a team of similarly unknown frightened rabbits onto the pitch against Bishop Auckland in 2012.

What had we done?

[edit: actually it was our choice - between saving what we had or letting the Trust run off and start a phoenix club... viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16429

I did argue at the time that it was largely our own complacency which left us with a weak and ineffective Trust which wanted to take their ball and go home. It was a real battle at the time, as I'm sure a few on here will remember.]


Last edited by Mr_Tibbs on Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:40 am 
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joejaques wrote:
Are the bookies offering odds on who will be next out? I think that's why there is so much screaming in Europe for us to hurry to invoke Article 50, before anyone else joins us. Only a matter of time before the whole house of cards collapses. :roll:


Slovakia.

Slovakian far right party launches petition for referendum on EU membership

Quote:
"Citizens of Great Britain have decided to refuse the diktat from Brussels. It is high time for Slovakia to leave the sinking European 'Titanic' as well," the party said on its website.

Slovak law requires a petition to receive 350,000 signatures from the country of 5.4 million for a referendum to be held. The results of a referendum are legally binding if the turnout exceeds 50 percent of all eligible voters.
Both of these are probably achievable as immigration of migrants is a big issue in Slovakia.


Last edited by Mr_Tibbs on Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:42 am 
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Vokuhila wrote:
Has anyone else seen this piece about Article 50 (http://jackofkent.com/2016/06/why-the-a ... important/) today? It's definitely worth a read if you get the chance.

As an aside, did anyone else think Boris Johnson and Michael Gove both looked as miserable as sin yesterday? I didn't expect them to be high-fiving each other on stage or anything, but you would've thought at least one of them would've been able to crack a smile. Seemed a bit odd to me...


Someone on TV this morning was saying that Boris had 2 articles prepared for the Daily Telegraph, when he was deciding whether to back staying in Europe or Leaving. This journalist read both articles and the one backing staying in Europe was more passionate. He went on to say that Boris may have been expecting the remain vote would win by a small majority, fatally damaging Cameron, but leaving Boris like he hadn't brought down Cameron himself. It could also be that Boris didn't want to appear to be gloating, which would have alienated him with the Tory grassroots, as Cameron was popular amongst them.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:44 am 
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Corbyn looks in trouble, as both Hilary Benn and Heidi Alexander resigning from the Shadow Cabinet.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:50 am 
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Darlo_Pete wrote:
Corbyn looks in trouble, as both Hilary Benn and Heidi Alexander resigning from the Shadow Cabinet.


Hilary Benn got fired. Not sure about the other.

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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:51 am 
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Things are now moving very quickly, as half the shadow cabinet are set to resign in an attempt to get Corbyn to resign. BBC article about this is below.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36632956


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:06 am 
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Darlogramps wrote:
Hawkeye wrote:
I'm a bit confused by this 2nd referendum petition:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

"We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the remain or leave vote is less than 60% based a turnout less than 75% there should be another referendum."

The part I don't understand is whether this is a rule that already exists that isn't being exercised, or whether this is just something somebody has arbitrarily dreamt up in the hope of retrospectively moving the goalposts. If it's the latter, it's more than a little desperate and - even as a Remain voter - I'm disappointed it has received so many signatures.


It's the latter.

The funniest quote I've seen was "If this petition ignored, our democracy is broken."

It's great people are engaged but I'd suggest if they care so much, join a political party or action group and try to convince people on your arguments.

Of course, people find it easier to sign an online petition and call that democratic participation.


I'm told the petition was started in May, which makes the petition itself more reasonable - you can make a case that a decision of this magnitude should require a significant mandate. What I struggle with is the idea of people only signing this after the fact and the rule being applied to a decision that has already been taken when this rule didn't exist.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:44 am 
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If the vote had gone the other way then that should've been accepted by the Leave side, just as the actual outcome should be accepted by the Remain side, otherwise it's a mockery of our democratic system.

If we did redo the vote, and it came out for Leave again, then what? Keep redoing until it's the result they want?

Or what if it came out for Remain this time, what then? It would only be fair if we redid it again given that the Remain side were given another go.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:20 pm 
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Hawkeye wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Hawkeye wrote:
I'm a bit confused by this 2nd referendum petition:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

"We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the remain or leave vote is less than 60% based a turnout less than 75% there should be another referendum."

The part I don't understand is whether this is a rule that already exists that isn't being exercised, or whether this is just something somebody has arbitrarily dreamt up in the hope of retrospectively moving the goalposts. If it's the latter, it's more than a little desperate and - even as a Remain voter - I'm disappointed it has received so many signatures.


It's the latter.

The funniest quote I've seen was "If this petition ignored, our democracy is broken."

It's great people are engaged but I'd suggest if they care so much, join a political party or action group and try to convince people on your arguments.

Of course, people find it easier to sign an online petition and call that democratic participation.


I'm told the petition was started in May, which makes the petition itself more reasonable - you can make a case that a decision of this magnitude should require a significant mandate. What I struggle with is the idea of people only signing this after the fact and the rule being applied to a decision that has already been taken when this rule didn't exist.

Started in May by a 'leave' supporter apparently, because he feared they'd lose.

Doesn't change the fact it's really not the correct way of doing things but it does change the circumstances slightly.

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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:21 pm 
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I completely agree. At the same time I do think there were already murmurs before that if it was a close remain decision that leave wouldn't 'leave' it.

I do think that now is the time not for continued fear over what now, the decision was made and we now have to implement in the best way possible.

Remain supporters would be better now working out the best exit possible for them and throw their weight behind that.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:44 pm 
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The next General Election which could be this year will be very interesting. I can see UKIP being a major threat to Labour, as people are disillusioned with them. UKIP are likely to take more votes off Labour than the Conservative's, especially now that we have voted the leave the EU. A lot of Conservative's voted UKIP because they wanted us to leave the EU and now that we are doing so, they are far less likely to vote for UKIP.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:00 pm 
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Labour voters went to UKIP for the same reason though? I think Tories managed to take back votes from UKIP with the promise of a referendum.

I don't know what the valid alternative is now to the right. Green, Labour and Lib Dems probably need to work out a strategy between them. SNP are gonna hold Scotland so also need to discuss how they can work with them.

Milliband couldn't concede anything to SNP before the election last time it as it was an admission of defeat. I wonder if a better strategy is to admit that SNP, Labour and Lib Dem could find a way to work together and actually have a joint election strategy.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:04 pm 
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Spyman wrote:
Started in May by a 'leave' supporter apparently, because he feared they'd lose.

Doesn't change the fact it's really not the correct way of doing things but it does change the circumstances slightly.
The petition is being investigated for fraudulent signatures now...

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu- ... m-36634407

BBC wrote:
The House of Commons petitions committee is investigating allegations of fraud in connection with a petition calling for a second EU referendum.

Its inquiry is focused on the possibility that some names could be fraudulent - 77,000 signatures have already been removed.

More than 3.2 million signatures are on the petition, but PM David Cameron has said there will be no second vote.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:58 pm 
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This petition is truly depressing.

The Internet overall is a fantastic thing but it does also lend itself to these types of nonsense spectacles.

The suggestion that the people were hoodwinked into voting 'Leave' is a reflection of the negative side of the Internet being that it gives the tinfoil hat wearers (or those simply against democracy) an amplified voice.

Look at how many local authorities returned wins for Leave - it's no fluke - just accept the result, you bloody anarchists.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:44 pm 
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Remain are now saying (they're not really, I'm just guessing their next move) that the petition which the originator says they hijacked has been re-hijacked by leave who have been flooding it with signatures from some crazy places (23k from North Korea and over 3000 from the uninhabited South Georgia and the Sandwich Islands - I kid you not) in order to discredit the petition.

I've just read that we don't need to press the Article 50 button - we could just amend the European Communities Act of 1972 ourselves and make all that irrelevant.

It's mentioned on John Redwood's Diary, if anyone's interested.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:06 am 
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Cameron assured us 11 days ago that he wouldn't quit if the leave vote won. He's showed his duplicitous nature yet again by resigning hours after the result came through.

Ironically if 'project fear' had said "vote leave get Johnson as Prime Minister" - this might have actually scared people.

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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:35 am 
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Mr_Tibbs wrote:
OHDFC wrote:
Mr_Tibbs wrote:
It's not unlike what happened with our club - no pain, no gain. Look where we are now and start dreaming.


Not sure about that, there was no choice with the club.
I was speaking more about the fear of what comes next which is what I felt the first time Gary Brown led a team of similarly unknown frightened rabbits onto the pitch against Bishop Auckland in 2012.

What had we done?


Fair enough - I didn't interpret it that way.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:10 am 
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Think it would have benefitted the 48% had Cameron stayed but it is probably the right decision. He believed the UK should remain, and we are not.

Ha if project fear really wanted to get things going then how does UK leaves, Scotland leaves UK condemning England to an eternity of right wing politics as there is no realistic challenge to them. At least with the SNP there was a chance of a coalition to challenge.

I think labours lack of voice on the issue has been their own downfall for the future. I want Scotland to leave for the good of Scotland but want them to stay for the good of England!

My only consolation is Boris is really a remainer and he was only doing the whole exit thing for a job. As a result he may look for a deal which is pretty indistinguishable from what we had with the away anyway but we won't be in the EU.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:18 pm 
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theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Cameron assured us 11 days ago that he wouldn't quit if the leave vote won. He's showed his duplicitous nature yet again by resigning hours after the result came through.


Realistically he had no choice. This was an important vote which will affect our short and long term future. Saying the outcome of the referendum will affect who will be PM could have changed it into personality politics, which over the long term is likely to be irrelevant.

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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:22 pm 
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Because the result was so close I'm wondering if anyone can be truly happy about it, as we now live in a divided country, and the same division would of happened if the result had been close the other way round.

I feel that the main issue of the (rubbish on both sides) campaign was how to control mass immigration. In other words 'freedom of movement'. It's caused problems for years and each successive government we've had, has been powerless to take meaningful action.

But why can't we have the good thing 'the single market' -
without the bad thing? 'freedom of movement' -

Why do they have to go hand in hand?

Isn't 'freedom of movement' an ideology? Why is it linked to trade in this way?

In any case it might have worked to an extent before, when the EU had fewer countries, but now, with many more smaller/poorer member states and the financial crisis etc the whole idea is a mess.

If the EU leaders were really concerned about our situation they would help or compromise more, but the message coming out of the Juncker Bunker is one of wanting us to go ASAP - which just sums him up.

Theo Pathitis (him off Dragon's Den) voted leave but still believes this story has more legs in it. He said something like "call us up and we'll talk"

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Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:36 am 
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Which Remainer are you? Post-Brexit Edition

LET'S PLAY!

Love the options to the questions :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:25 pm 
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So, in the news today it turns out that Cameron and Co put in a last gasp attempt to get our EU masters (Junker and his mate/Merkel/and the rest) to consider a switch in policy.

Taken from BBC News Web page ---



"The then-prime minister called the German leader days before the EU referendum, as opinion polls seemed to show voters moving to the Leave camp.

But he later abandoned the idea of getting her and other EU leaders to make a statement granting concessions.

No 10 decided it could be portrayed by Vote Leave as a sign of weakness.

Newsnight has learned that Mr Cameron telephoned the German chancellor to ask whether she would be willing to issue a statement with fellow EU leaders granting the UK concessions on free movement.

Under the plan, thrashed out at a meeting in Downing Street, the president of France Francois Hollande, the European Council president Donald Tusk and the European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker would all put their names to the joint statement by EU leaders.

The former prime minister approached his German counterpart after Vote Leave had dominated the campaign in the wake of the publication of official migration statistics at the end of May. These showed the government had once again failed to meet its net migration target.

The idea of a joint statement by EU leaders was eventually shelved."



Cameron must have seen the writing on the wall, but still the EU power people couldn't, or wouldn't break their stride in relation to the freedom of movement rule.

Junker and Tusk have been making anti UK noises ever since the referendum result, but with some meaningful concessions granted to us, Brexit could have been avoided. Which makes me wonder, what's more important to them? Their dream of an inflexible, federal European super state (ruled by them) or listening to and acting upon very real problems that certain member countries of the EU are having.

With friends like them, who needs enemies!

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Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:36 pm 
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theoriginalfatcat wrote:
So, in the news today it turns out that Cameron and Co put in a last gasp attempt to get our EU masters (Junker and his mate/Merkel/and the rest) to consider a switch in policy.

Taken from BBC News Web page ---



"The then-prime minister called the German leader days before the EU referendum, as opinion polls seemed to show voters moving to the Leave camp.

But he later abandoned the idea of getting her and other EU leaders to make a statement granting concessions.

No 10 decided it could be portrayed by Vote Leave as a sign of weakness.

Newsnight has learned that Mr Cameron telephoned the German chancellor to ask whether she would be willing to issue a statement with fellow EU leaders granting the UK concessions on free movement.

Under the plan, thrashed out at a meeting in Downing Street, the president of France Francois Hollande, the European Council president Donald Tusk and the European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker would all put their names to the joint statement by EU leaders.

The former prime minister approached his German counterpart after Vote Leave had dominated the campaign in the wake of the publication of official migration statistics at the end of May. These showed the government had once again failed to meet its net migration target.

The idea of a joint statement by EU leaders was eventually shelved."



Cameron must have seen the writing on the wall, but still the EU power people couldn't, or wouldn't break their stride in relation to the freedom of movement rule.

Junker and Tusk have been making anti UK noises ever since the referendum result, but with some meaningful concessions granted to us, Brexit could have been avoided. Which makes me wonder, what's more important to them? Their dream of an inflexible, federal European super state (ruled by them) or listening to and acting upon very real problems that certain member countries of the EU are having.

With friends like them, who needs enemies!

Where does it state that Junkers & Co wouldn't make concessions? It reads to me that Cameron decided not to do it. Mind you I am hammered after watching FC Schaffhausen beat Wil in their first game of the new Challenge League season so I might have misread it

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