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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:40 pm 
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I don't know if it's just buyer's remorse having only had 4 hours sleep since Wednesday morning but I'm not averse to staying in the EU if they come back with an offer that gives the UK sovereignty over all areas - unlikely, I know, but I wouldn't rule anything out (yet).


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:02 pm 
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theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Mr_Tibbs wrote:
Scotland voted almost unanimously to remain while the council estate dwellers across the rest of the country got off their backsides and voted Britain out.



38% of Scottish voters voted Brexit - hardly unanimous Mr_Tibbs.


Yeh, you're right. I didn't have time to look at the numbers when I got up this morning... just saw the pound on the floor and had a quick look at the map.

They're forecasting a really tough time for the Euro so anyone going on holiday should wait a few days before thinking their beer's going to be too expensive.

Saved myself a nice tidy sum by swapping my pounds for dollars a couple of days ago :D


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:09 pm 
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Henley wrote:
I don't know if it's just buyer's remorse having only had 4 hours sleep since Wednesday morning but I'm not averse to staying in the EU if they come back with an offer that gives the UK sovereignty over all areas - unlikely, I know, but I wouldn't rule anything out (yet).


No wavering in the ranks... keep a stiff upper lip.

Out is OUT!

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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:43 pm 
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Stunned. Didn't think it would happen at all. On Thursday morning I was convinced we were heading for a comfortable Remain vote.

But we're free of the undemocratic, unaccountable EU and can now move forward as a country.

There's no going back from here (EU Parliament president Martin Schulz has made that perfectly clear).

A lot of Remaniacs are issuing prophecies of doom - you'd think a zombie apocalypse had struck. I've seen some predicting financial armageddon, mass deportations and far right gangs roaming the streets.

The markets seem to have stabilised after a drop overnight. Whether that holds longer term remains to be seen.

It's a period of massive change and that always throws up difficulties and problems. But I believe long term everything will settle down and actually, we'll cope just fine.

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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:52 pm 
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lo36789 wrote:
and so start my attempts to convince my gf that we should move to Edinburgh!

Looks like I won't be the only one with similar thoughts. Morgan Stanley are the first investment bank to make there move it would appear - 2,000 jobs are being relocated from London to Frankfurt/Dublin.


Except they've denied this is the case: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 00911.html

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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:00 pm 
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Why do those who voted out want to wait? Surely if it was s*** yesterday it's s*** today too and every other day till we actually leave. Anyone get the feeling we've been played in a Tory power struggle?

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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:19 pm 
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Darlogramps wrote:
The markets seem to have stabilised after a drop overnight. Whether that holds longer term remains to be seen.


Uncertainty will be evident for a while. I am expecting a really extreme reaction to almost everything that happens in the aftermath.

Each time there is a reaction chances are that by the end of the day things will have stabilised, we will likely close incrementally lower each time. I think most Brexiters accepted that we would be economically worse off in the short term.

So stock up on dollars in the build up to each of these happen...

> Osborne announcing his resignation
> Cameron's successor being announced
> Invoking Article 50
> Scottish referendum announcement
> Scottish referendum result

Darlogramps wrote:
Except they've denied this is the case: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 00911.html


They might well deny it, but in my experience these things tend to be leaked by dis-enfranchised employees who are affected...

Darlogramps wrote:
But I believe long term everything will settle down and actually, we'll cope just fine.


I agree so long as we are ready to accept some concessions when we get into negotiation with the EU. Out of interest gramps - your argument seemed to be more sovereignty and democracy driven - would you be against an EU agreement incl. free movement of people?


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:20 pm 
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Fatty eats roadkill wrote:
Why do those who voted out want to wait? Surely if it was s*** yesterday it's s*** today too and every other day till we actually leave. Anyone get the feeling we've been played in a Tory power struggle?

To see if the EU will come back with something.

I wanted to give the EU a bloody nose but would stay within the EU if they returned full sovereignty to us.

I've always liked having this relationship with other member states but the frustration arising from the intransigence and unaccountability of the EU had exceeded the goodwill we had towards the member states. I really hope the EU will open up themselves to change.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:31 pm 
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lo36789 wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Except they've denied this is the case: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 00911.html


They might well deny it, but in my experience these things tend to be leaked by dis-enfranchised employees who are affected...


I think undoubtedly there'll be some sort of plan for that, but I expect the major companies will be waiting to see where the pieces fall before making their next move.

With so much uncertainty, it'd be foolish to try and make any decisive move.

lo36789 wrote:
Out of interest gramps - your argument seemed to be more sovereignty and democracy driven - would you be against an EU agreement incl. free movement of people?


At the risk of sounding like a drumbanging UKIP lunatic, I would hope the UK government would retain full control of immigration policy.

But it's difficult to say, because it'd depend on the specifics of the agreement.

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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:58 pm 
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I bet the EU leaders wish they'd given Cameron more at that meeting, before he called the referendum. If they had, then we'd probably have a different result today.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:52 pm 
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Darlo_Pete wrote:
I bet the EU leaders wish they'd given Cameron more at that meeting, before he called the referendum. If they had, then we'd probably have a different result today.

I hope they provide it now.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:22 pm 
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Darlo_Pete wrote:
I bet the EU leaders wish they'd given Cameron more at that meeting, before he called the referendum. If they had, then we'd probably have a different result today.


I agree.

It seems that freedom of movement became the number one issue.

This has been building up for years now - while politicians and EU big wigs buried their heads in the sand, thinking they were untouchable.

Todays events have shocked me, and I would have preferred it if the "EU leaders" had listened to us and understood that uncontrolled immigration was causing big problems - one key policy movement here would have (IMO) avoided Brexit.

But no! And this just emphasises everything to me, as a country we weren't allowed to do what the majority of people wished for.

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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:33 pm 
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Darlogramps wrote:
lo36789 wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Except they've denied this is the case: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 00911.html


They might well deny it, but in my experience these things tend to be leaked by dis-enfranchised employees who are affected...


I think undoubtedly there'll be some sort of plan for that, but I expect the major companies will be waiting to see where the pieces fall before making their next move.

With so much uncertainty, it'd be foolish to try and make any decisive move.

lo36789 wrote:
Out of interest gramps - your argument seemed to be more sovereignty and democracy driven - would you be against an EU agreement incl. free movement of people?


At the risk of sounding like a drumbanging UKIP lunatic, I would hope the UK government would retain full control of immigration policy.

But it's difficult to say, because it'd depend on the specifics of the agreement.

So they can do as little with it as they have the immigration they do control.

Let's face it. The only thing that's happened is that we have voted to leave the EU. Now the government's that everyone says are generally crap (and they choose the lesser of the 2 evils) have full control to do as they wish.



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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:42 pm 
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I feel guilty about voting Leave but then I think about it and realise I would do the same if the situation occurred again.

I can't blame myself - instead, I blame:

- the EU

- David Cameron (for rushing the negotiations)

- sanctimonious snearing leftie prigs. These arses are the instigators of so much of the illwill that's directed at them from otherwise decent people.

As an aside, I just read about a leaked 8 page document in Germany which makes reference to giving the UK associate EU membership.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:44 pm 
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Henley wrote:
I feel guilty about voting Leave but then I think about it and realise I would do the same if the situation occurred again.

I can't blame myself - instead, I blame:

- the EU

- David Cameron (for rushing the negotiations)

- sanctimonious snearing leftie prigs. These arses are the instigators of so much of the illwill that's directed at them from otherwise decent people.


Well said, this sums up a lot of my feelings too.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:25 pm 
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I realise that I'm going against the general grain of opinion here, but I was genuinely gutted by the result today. Gutted. My wife's been in tears on and off.

I know the EU's far from perfect and could see where some of the arguments to leave (many of which have been eloquently put forward on this thread) were coming from, but being a part of it has had such a positive influence in shaping both of our lives that it's been hard to come to terms with the fact that we've been taken out of it against our will.

It's happened though and we've started to make peace with it now.

And at least there's a chance I won't have to listen to Angela Merkel's name being mispronounced all across the media quite so often once we leave... :problem:

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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:36 am 
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Vokuhila wrote:
I realise that I'm going against the general grain of opinion here, but I was genuinely gutted by the result today. Gutted. My wife's been in tears on and off.


Bit of a life-changer, isn't it? I'm with Donald Trump on this - I think it's fantastic.

It's not unlike what happened with our club - no pain, no gain. Look where we are now and start dreaming.

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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:08 am 
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Henley wrote:
Darlo_Pete wrote:
I bet the EU leaders wish they'd given Cameron more at that meeting, before he called the referendum. If they had, then we'd probably have a different result today.

I hope they provide it now.


I hope they are sensible now and don't act like silly buggers. I'm afraid that they will want to be tough with us in negotiations, as they'll want to discourage all the anti-EU sentiment in a lot of other European countries.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:34 am 
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Mr_Tibbs wrote:
Vokuhila wrote:
I realise that I'm going against the general grain of opinion here, but I was genuinely gutted by the result today. Gutted. My wife's been in tears on and off.


Bit of a life-changer, isn't it? I'm with Donald Trump on this - I think it's fantastic.

It's not unlike what happened with our club - no pain, no gain. Look where we are now and start dreaming.


Not sure about that, there was no choice with the club.

I'm with Vokuhila and believe that we are better in, where we can at least influence decisions. According to some of the reports that I've read, it seems a lot of countries (not just in the EU) relied on us to keep EU in check and without us, there is no one with power to do that. We appear to have been a lot more important to the EU than we (or at least I) thought.

My hope is that this decision causes the EU to make meaningful reforms and that we are invited to rejoin once those are implemented, but my fear is that this precipates the break up of the UK (Scotland becoming an independent member state of the EU) and we become an isolated inward looking country led by Farrage like xenophobic little Englanders.

Mind you Junker is coming across as a real spoilt brat. Instead of making veiled threats, he should be analysing why the UK voted the way it did, and addressing those issues


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:12 pm 
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I'm a bit confused by this 2nd referendum petition:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

"We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the remain or leave vote is less than 60% based a turnout less than 75% there should be another referendum."

The part I don't understand is whether this is a rule that already exists that isn't being exercised, or whether this is just something somebody has arbitrarily dreamt up in the hope of retrospectively moving the goalposts. If it's the latter, it's more than a little desperate and - even as a Remain voter - I'm disappointed it has received so many signatures.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:53 pm 
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I understand why a significant number have signed the petition but I won't be one of them. We now need to focus on securing the best deals we can to minimise the impact on our economy. Prolonging the uncertainty won't help anyone.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:55 pm 
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Hawkeye wrote:
I'm a bit confused by this 2nd referendum petition:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

"We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the remain or leave vote is less than 60% based a turnout less than 75% there should be another referendum."

The part I don't understand is whether this is a rule that already exists that isn't being exercised, or whether this is just something somebody has arbitrarily dreamt up in the hope of retrospectively moving the goalposts. If it's the latter, it's more than a little desperate and - even as a Remain voter - I'm disappointed it has received so many signatures.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:46 pm 
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It's is very sore losers signing that petition. It should rightly be dismissed you can't just keep voting until you get what you want.

The interesting thing it's a majority of MPs who wanted to stay in so I dunno if that has any bearing I'd hope not.

I do think it's interesting the back tracking on leave side mind recently. There seems to be prominent campaigners now accepting that £350m was never destined for the NHS and that free movement of people is likely in our new trade deal with the EU.

There was a post I saw earlier that there could still be some arguments had over the next few years. I am not convinced what leave will look like is what a substantial proportion of leave voted for. However I think it will be a solution which would make a majority of the population happy.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:54 pm 
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Hawkeye wrote:
I'm a bit confused by this 2nd referendum petition:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

"We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the remain or leave vote is less than 60% based a turnout less than 75% there should be another referendum."

The part I don't understand is whether this is a rule that already exists that isn't being exercised, or whether this is just something somebody has arbitrarily dreamt up in the hope of retrospectively moving the goalposts. If it's the latter, it's more than a little desperate and - even as a Remain voter - I'm disappointed it has received so many signatures.


It's the latter.

The funniest quote I've seen was "If this petition ignored, our democracy is broken."

It's great people are engaged but I'd suggest if they care so much, join a political party or action group and try to convince people on your arguments.

Of course, people find it easier to sign an online petition and call that democratic participation.

Rather more worryingly Labour MP David Lammy has called on parliament to reject the result.

I suspect it's attention seeking on his part. If he votes against it though, he's voting against the democratic will of the people and therefore should resign.

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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:25 pm 
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Agree it would be undemocratic for parliament to reject the result. I would argue that MPs in constituencies/counting areas who were predominantly remain are entitled to vote against it.

The likes of Jenny Chapman are obligated (I would say) by the referendum result to vote in favour. It should be a bit of a tick box exercise though ultimately.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:51 pm 
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lo36789 wrote:
Agree it would be undemocratic for parliament to reject the result. I would argue that MPs in constituencies/counting areas who were predominantly remain are entitled to vote against it.


I can understand that argument, however we didn't vote by constituencies in the referendum. We were in 382 "voting areas", not the 650 constituencies for a parliamentary election.

So there'd be difficulty for an MP in a city such as Newcastle, which only just voted Remain, because the voting area isn't the same as their constituency. Newcastle has three MPs, so I don't think you can say definitively say they'd have to vote Remain, because there's no way of knowing exactly how their constituency would have voted. (Hope that makes sense!)

But ultimately, it should like you say be a box-ticking exercise. There'd be utter chaos if parliament rejected the result.

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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:07 pm 
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Oh no it does definitely it would and should be a token protest vote at best, if there is any risk it changes the outcome then it should be prevented from doing so.

At the bare minimum I would expect the protest from Scottish MPs, then possibly a few constituencies across Liverpool, Manchester, NI and London.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:21 pm 
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Are the bookies offering odds on who will be next out? I think that's why there is so much screaming in Europe for us to hurry to invoke Article 50, before anyone else joins us. Only a matter of time before the whole house of cards collapses. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:24 pm 
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I'm not convinced any other leaders will trust their population with a referendum to be honest.

Cameron only did ours as a teaser to get UKIP voters to give him a majority at GE2015. I don't think he ever believed this would be the outcome.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Referendum
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:33 pm 
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There have been polls in recent days saying that both Denmark and the Dutch are in favour of leaving. The Eurosceptics will make their presence felt in their next elections. Le Penn is also shouting for a referendum in France. As the Euro gets deeper in trouble and the southern countries get deeper in financial bother, the cries will only increase. :roll:

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