EU Referendum

Talk about anything you want in here.

Moderators: mikkyx, uncovered

User avatar
DarloOnTheUp
Posts: 6337
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:35 am
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: EU Referendum

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Sun May 15, 2016 5:38 pm

Thanks for the well thought out and detailed response, it's given me a lot more information on the subject, and forced me to do a bit of my own research.

However, you still haven't convinced me, and here's why:
Beano wrote:Norway
Russia, USA, Canada etc. None of these are in the EU and all seem to be doing fine. And imagine trying to convince the USA to join a similar EU-type system in the Americas? No chance. All they have at the minute is a trade agreement, which is not only working fine for them, but it's essentially what we'll end up with too, on our terms.
Beano wrote:Google it and you will see the opinions of every credible economist. You can't use a 'facts' to describe what hasn't yet happened, only the thoughts and predictions of those who will make the changes based on the referendum. What more do you need than the leading academics, economists (both left and right leaning) and multi-national businesses speaking almost unitedly in these terms?
I've clumped all these together as they're all vague "appeal to authority" logical fallacies, including one quote where you admit we're not dealing in facts here, only predictions and opinion.

Your appeals to authority are incorrect and dishonest as I have "Googled" it and it isn't as clear cut and opinion isn't as united as you claim. In fact, for every prediction by an authority figure you present, I can find an opposing prediction from a different authority figure.

And half your post is nothing more than these vague appeals to authority.
Beano wrote:Big businesses are multi-national. Their HQ and strategic outposts are in the markets which allow them optimal access to the most people and wealth. If we leave the EU, we won't be in that optimal position.

An example: Nissan Sunderland has a contract for the next X number of years to build the Qashqai. If we were to leave, it is extremely unlikely to be renewed as trade tarrifs will render the excellent productivity of the factory meaningless. Nissan wouldn't close overnight, but would slowly lose contracts over time until it was no longer viable.

Another example: London is perfectly placed as THE city to trade in all financial markets as the hub of EU and worldwide trade. If we leave the EU, that is very likely to shift to Frankfurt instead, for the obvious reasons. Again, it wouldn't happen overnight, but slowly overtime as lease agreements on buildings and offices run out and multi-nationals shift their HQs and strategic outposts to within the EU.
More guesswork, more assumptions, more scare tactics.

1. We won't have to pay a membership fee for the EU anymore, so we'd see an instant profit of billions of pounds.
2. We could set up our own trading deals on our own terms, ala Canada. A think-tank conducted by Open Europe suggested that our GDP could increase by 1.6% if we could create our own free trading with EU members. However, the same think-tank suggested that the worst case scenario is that our GDP will take a hit of 2.2%, which is minimal in exchange for our independence, and it's not definitive anyways as we've already established: these are just predictions.
3. Free from EU rules and regulations, Britain could reinvent itself as a Singapore-style supercharged economy.
4. The departure of one of the EU's most powerful economies would hit its finances and boost populist anti-EU movements in other countries. The UK would then be seen as a safe haven from those risks, attracting investors and boosting the pound.

All of the above was brought to you by credible economists, academics, and other important sounding authority figures.
Beano wrote:We enjoyed a privileged position as policymaker rather than policy subordinate as a member of the G7, EU, UN Security Council and NATO. If we cannot influence others, we become far less relevant and far more isolated. A fact you will enjoy - the UK has been on the winning side of 97% of all EU policy votes. That is because we shape and make it.
We'd still be a member of all of those: we're voting to leave the EU, nothing more. And you hit on a key point here: we've been on the winning side of a large number of EU policy votes? Exactly, EU policy votes, influenced by all the other members of the EU, with their own agendas and motivations. If we leave, we can be done with that, and just deal with our own policies.

Plus we'd still be involved in world politics and we'd still be a superpower. I think it is more accurate to replace "isolated" with "independent".

However, I'd like to throw in the point that at the moment, we do not have full control over immigration, but we would if we left. We are at the mercy of the EU with regards to immigration between member states. This is not acceptable, and is another area for which we would have complete control over if we left, as well as any other EU based laws.

You make it sound like we'd up in a Walking Dead style apocalypse, but this is simply not the case. Being a member of the EU isn't a prerequisite for economic success: we managed without it before it was invented and other countries, mentioned above, manage without it too.

I admit it is a complex subject with many unknowns but your post made it sound clear-cut, obvious, agreed upon by "those in the know", and apocalyptic, but it is none of these things.

Henley
Posts: 572
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:49 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Sun May 15, 2016 6:23 pm

Beano wrote:
Henley wrote:There are many things I could say to counter Beano but for starters let's throw some big and obvious ones back:

Japan, Korea, Canada, Australia - all big economies not in the EU. To suggest we couldn't survive comfortably alone is embarrassing.

Leading economists also say we would thrive after Brexit - a bit of short term turbulence which would be just the markets doing what the markets do. Big business and markets do not like uncertainty. Even Gormless Gideon's disgraceful Treasury report said that our GDP in 2030 would be 31% higher than now rather than 37%. Whoop-di-do. A very small price for the return to full democracy.

The U.K. has the second and third balance of trade deficits with Germany and France respectively (€40bn with Germany - as I say, that's just the deficit). Any Remainian that suggests a trade deal wouldn't be agreed with favourite terms for the UK sooner rather than later knows they are talking out of their rectum.

During Cameron's EU negotiations, he walked in there with a Royal Flush and ended up folding against a 10-high. Utter tosspot.

BeLeave.
I didn't say we couldn't survive, but we would be worse off, to which you've agreed.

In all fairness, you've hit the genuine crux of the issue: is the perceived gain in sovereignty worth economic sacrifice?

You think yes, I think no. And, I must add, I respect that view in my disagreement.
I didn't agree with you that we'd be worse off economically after Brexit.

Feethams 1966
Posts: 293
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:13 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: EU Referendum

Post by Feethams 1966 » Sun May 15, 2016 9:41 pm

A new start after Independence day would be very exciting. I'm voting for Brexit, but am beginning to get a bit worried about all the bad things we've been told would happen.
Are we really going to get a plague of brown rats if we vote out, or are the status quo people (as some say) just being hysterical?

lo36789
Posts: 10929
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:58 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: EU Referendum

Post by lo36789 » Mon May 16, 2016 6:04 am

I do find that 'ooo scare tactics' is a bit of a lazy response. We are in the away now so the benefits of staying is we keep what we currently have and we don't lose those benefits by leaving.

I havn't really understood yet what this new found independence will mean for us. The leave campaign havn't really told us other that they will try and get things as close to what they currently are without us being officially part of the club.

Of course there are other countries that are fine on their own but as I understand it they are all the leading forces in their continent they are the one everyone else wants to trade with. We are not Germany.

My reasons for wanting to stay, and sorry this isn't scare tactics but it is quite heavily based on not really seeing the benefits laid out by leave;
- Immigration. Firmly believe the free movement across Europe is of benefit to UK citizens. We benefit massively from diverse culture and also well they are net contributors so it covers what otherwise would be a bigger hole in the public purse.
- Economy. I don't see what we gain by leaving just uncertainty. All we are told us we will get a trade deal - we already have one of them and it is serving us quite well!
- Regulation. As above if we want a trade deal if anyone thinks we could sell a product into Europe without meeting EU regs we just won't. We will end up with two tiers of regulation and I am not sure how that will be simpler for UK businesses.
- Sovereignty/Democracy last time I checked we voted for our MEPs - whilst there are other governance fora this is no different to government bodies ultimately put together by parliament. Every other country will have in turn voted for theirs. They have been democratically elected across Europe just because they weren't voted for by us does not mean they are unelected.

The rest is gut feel. I am a believer that co-operation is the way forward for everyone and we should take all opportunities we can to share resource for the better of a wider population.

I still don't really get the arguments over what are lines on a map, we are all residents of the earth we should be looking to collaborate as one for the benefit of all - not looking for arguments that give us a new advantage.

I must admit I havnt seen a particularly well laid out and balanced argument from either side as yet - so maybe emotions and gut feel is what we are expected to base our decision on.

User avatar
Jamm
Posts: 577
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:25 pm
Team Supported: Darlington
Location: Northallerton

Re: EU Referendum

Post by Jamm » Mon May 16, 2016 10:43 am

The EU referendum is a question of democracy. A choice between supranationalism (Remain) and intergovernmentalism (Leave); of centralised subservience to unelected institutions versus the chance to have a revitalised democracy. The former will render UK politics a meaningless charade, aided by an unchallenging media; the latter will rejuvenate politics, give us back real choice at the ballot box.

Both campaigns are full of misinformation and disinformation, especially the Remain campaign with ridiculous and idiotic hypothetical claims as part of its Project Fear campaign. The Leave campaign is wrong to focus on immigration and not have a detailed exit plan.

Such a plan exists however, produced by The Leave Alliance http://leavehq.com/(of bloggers) – called Flexcit http://www.eureferendum.com/Flexcit.aspx, for a flexible and continuous exit from the EU, it is a very thorough and well researched plan for leaving the EU, the option that the government, despite all its rhetoric, will surely follow after a Leave vote (regardless of what any campaign group may want).

Whatever the respective campaigns say, the only logical and economically neutral Brexit plan is to leave the EU via Article 50 Treaty on European Union (TEU), but remain in the EEA (European Economic Area, EU28 + Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein) via renewed EFTA (European Free Trade Association) membership. This would free us of the political structures of the EU (see Articles 2-6 Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU) for the extent of EU powers) whilst keeping our place in the single market (the EEA).
Whilst we’d still be subject to freedom of movement under Articles 28-30 of the EEA Agreement (which is why I suspect the Vote Leave campaign don’t go with this option), under Article 112 of the EEA Agreement we’d have the ‘emergency brake’ on immigration that as an EU member requires EU approval, but not so as a non-EU EEA member.

Furthermore we’d be free to negotiate our own trade deals with non-EU countries (e.g. non-EU Iceland, within the EEA, has negotiated a free trade agreement with China), something the EU Treaties prevent us from doing as an EU member (see Articles 3(2) and 216-217 TFEU).

The Remain campaign suggest that in adopting ‘The Norway option’ we’d have no say over the rules of the single market. That is incorrect and shows ignorance (or deceit). The bulk of single market rules originate in global bodies, e.g. Codex Alimentarius, the United Nations / World Health Organisation international food standards body, and as a non-EU country we’d have our own voice in such bodies, not 1/28th of a voice co-ordinated by the EU. In addition, whilst the EU ultimately puts legislation with EEA relevance into place, non-EU EEA members are consulted via the EEA Joint Committee.

Given how easily people tend to get taken in by the Truth by Authority concept, failing to critically challenge what they are told by the establishment, and how the media is complicit in Project Fear, I suspect the Remain campaign will win the referendum. But there is hope, as in the last Norwegian referendum to join the EU, the entire political establishment and media campaigned to join, lying and telling ridiculous scare stories about not joining the EU. The people saw sense and voted No to joining, and Norway is one of the richest countries in Europe. A vote to Leave the EU is a vote for the future, for the UK to be a global nation, to reject a failed and wasteful political project that belongs in the last century.

Don’t believe those who you know treat us with contempt, who have failed over and over again to make any positive change, who have only their own interests at heart. Think for yourself, critically challenge what you’re told, do your own research, and vote for real change, for a positive future for the UK, outside of the political European Union. Vote Leave.

“They must find it hard to take Truth for authority who have so long mistaken Authority for Truth.” – Gerald Massey

“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary.” – HL Mencken

"We [Britain] are bound to further every honest and practical step which the nations of Europe may make to reduce the barriers which divide them and to nourish their common interests and their common welfare. We rejoice at every diminution of the internal tariffs and the martial armaments of Europe. We see nothing but good and hope in a richer, freer, more contented European commonalty. But we have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked, but not comprised. We are interested and associated, but not absorbed. And should European statesmen address us in the words which were used of old, 'Wouldest thou be spoken for to the king, or the captain of the host?', we should reply, with the Shunammite woman: 'I dwell among mine own people.'" – Sir Winston Churchill

“In short, by leaving the EU, we are not ending a relationship with EU Member States. We are redefining it. This is not isolation but an agreement to travel alongside each other, choosing different paths where there are ways of doing things which better suit our different needs.” – Dr Richard North (author of Flexcit)

lo36789
Posts: 10929
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:58 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: EU Referendum

Post by lo36789 » Mon May 16, 2016 11:27 am

Just pushing back anything the remain campaign as 'Project Fear' is really lazy. I said the same thing of the Scottish referendum.

Your quotes are a bit of a nonsense as well, 2 of them are some generic nonsense about politicians and the third is from Winston Churchill which was obviously said with the biggest economies of the world being outside of Europe? At what point does a quote whilst well said at the time become a bit irrelevant when the way in which business' operate and trade is unrecognisable.

I am guessing you are into your conspiracies? That everything government do is a cover up to benefit themselves etc. this again just feels like a really lazy get out people have for when they don't agree with the actions of government.

Project Fear could work both ways. If you believe the leave campaign all decisions in the EU are made against the UKs wishes and we are left outside of the room whilst they are made and told to just get on an implement it.

I know this to be completely false as for the past 18 months the new EU regulations surrounding data privacy have changed beyond recognition from what was initially put out and has been consulted on between the ICO and UK Companies.

User avatar
Jamm
Posts: 577
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:25 pm
Team Supported: Darlington
Location: Northallerton

Re: EU Referendum

Post by Jamm » Mon May 16, 2016 11:43 am

lo36789 wrote:Just pushing back anything the remain campaign as 'Project Fear' is really lazy. I said the same thing of the Scottish referendum.
- Not anything, but the Remain claims about Brexit are mostly based on the assumption that Art 50 TEU negotiations are a complete failure, it's all "could"....

Your quotes are a bit of a nonsense as well, 2 of them are some generic nonsense about politicians and the third is from Winston Churchill which was obviously said with the biggest economies of the world being outside of Europe? At what point does a quote whilst well said at the time become a bit irrelevant when the way in which business' operate and trade is unrecognisable.
- Just some quotes which add some additional context.

I am guessing you are into your conspiracies? That everything government do is a cover up to benefit themselves etc. this again just feels like a really lazy get out people have for when they don't agree with the actions of government.
- Not conspiracies, truth. I understand how the EU works, I work with EU law, I understand the EU Treaties, I know that what politicians and media say are often lacking in truth.

Project Fear could work both ways. If you believe the leave campaign all decisions in the EU are made against the UKs wishes and we are left outside of the room whilst they are made and told to just get on an implement it.
- I know, and am critical of the main Leave campaign (and UKIP, despite being ex-member, they're a liability). As I've said, I understand how the EU works.

I know this to be completely false as for the past 18 months the new EU regulations surrounding data privacy have changed beyond recognition from what was initially put out and has been consulted on between the ICO and UK Companies.
(see replies above). You've not touched upon the essence of my post. That we'd be better of as a non-EU EEA member, in an age where rules are increasingly made at a global level.

Henley
Posts: 572
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:49 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Mon May 16, 2016 12:13 pm

Well done, Jamm.

I read Lo's post this morning and thought "I hope someone else counters his straw-man arguments - I'd prefer not to, I'm on holiday".

Henley
Posts: 572
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:49 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Mon May 16, 2016 1:02 pm


lo36789
Posts: 10929
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:58 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: EU Referendum

Post by lo36789 » Mon May 16, 2016 2:20 pm

If I strip out your opinion based stuff (comments over whether you think we're better or not, someone else believes we are better, opinion of campaigns and quotes) the only benefit I can really see is the ability to trade with other countries with our own agreements (although didn't we announce £40billion worth of trade and investment with China only a few months ago doesn't seem to have held us back).

As you call out the voting/say on things is co-ordinated by the EU. If the EU as a whole go in one direction and Norway on their own go in another...then it's not going be seen as 50:50 weighting surely as part of a bigger body you have more say. Isn't this how trade unions are successful?

As you are in the know - what happens with our European Health Insurance Cards - are they an EU specific or EEA thing?

User avatar
Jamm
Posts: 577
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:25 pm
Team Supported: Darlington
Location: Northallerton

Re: EU Referendum

Post by Jamm » Mon May 16, 2016 2:26 pm

lo36789 wrote:If I strip out your opinion based stuff (comments over whether you think we're better or not, someone else believes we are better, opinion of campaigns and quotes) the only benefit I can really see is the ability to trade with other countries with our own agreements (although didn't we announce £40billion worth of trade and investment with China only a few months ago doesn't seem to have held us back).

As you call out the voting/say on things is co-ordinated by the EU. If the EU as a whole go in one direction and Norway on their own go in another...then it's not going be seen as 50:50 weighting surely as part of a bigger body you have more say. Isn't this how trade unions are successful?

As you are in the know - what happens with our European Health Insurance Cards - are they an EU specific or EEA thing?
Funny you should mention EHIC, just received my renewed card today. It's an EEA thing.

Darlo_Pete
Posts: 14080
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:13 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: EU Referendum

Post by Darlo_Pete » Mon May 16, 2016 7:21 pm

The more people threaten about the repercussions of leaving the EU, the more I feel like voting to leave and I think the scaremongering will have the opposite effect.

Fatty eats roadkill
Posts: 3664
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 7:31 pm
Team Supported: Darlington
Location: On top of a 29 year old big chested woman

Re: EU Referendum

Post by Fatty eats roadkill » Mon May 16, 2016 8:25 pm

Do you want any rights or do you want none? Stay in EU and keep rights, leave and end up at the whims of a Tory government hell bent on returning us to their perceived natural state of us as serfs.
Waiting for Raj to shaft them!

m62exile
Posts: 2242
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:11 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: EU Referendum

Post by m62exile » Mon May 16, 2016 9:34 pm

How much economic risk are we prepared to take in order to have control of immigration. Lots more words above but that's what it boils down to, surely..

User avatar
Jamm
Posts: 577
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:25 pm
Team Supported: Darlington
Location: Northallerton

Re: EU Referendum

Post by Jamm » Mon May 16, 2016 9:55 pm

Fatty eats roadkill wrote:Do you want any rights or do you want none? Stay in EU and keep rights, leave and end up at the whims of a Tory government hell bent on returning us to their perceived natural state of us as serfs.
So we had no rights before joining the EEC in 1973? All rights will be lost when we leave the EU? Are you for real? The Bill of Rights 1689 as amended is still legal, along with other acts of parliament forms our uncodified constitution. We've had rights enshrined in law longer than many EU countries have existed. Brexit will only enhance that.

User avatar
Jamm
Posts: 577
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:25 pm
Team Supported: Darlington
Location: Northallerton

Re: EU Referendum

Post by Jamm » Mon May 16, 2016 9:56 pm

m62exile wrote:How much economic risk are we prepared to take in order to have control of immigration. Lots more words above but that's what it boils down to, surely..
I suggest you read my earlier post....

Fatty eats roadkill
Posts: 3664
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 7:31 pm
Team Supported: Darlington
Location: On top of a 29 year old big chested woman

Re: EU Referendum

Post by Fatty eats roadkill » Mon May 16, 2016 10:11 pm

Jamm wrote:
Fatty eats roadkill wrote:Do you want any rights or do you want none? Stay in EU and keep rights, leave and end up at the whims of a Tory government hell bent on returning us to their perceived natural state of us as serfs.
So we had no rights before joining the EEC in 1973? All rights will be lost when we leave the EU? Are you for real? The Bill of Rights 1689 as amended is still legal, along with other acts of parliament forms our uncodified constitution. We've had rights enshrined in law longer than many EU countries have existed. Brexit will only enhance that.
We didn't have c**** like this lot in in 1689. Parliament can change any law they want and if this lot get their unfettered way we are ALL fucked!
Waiting for Raj to shaft them!

m62exile
Posts: 2242
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:11 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: EU Referendum

Post by m62exile » Mon May 16, 2016 10:11 pm

Jamm wrote:
m62exile wrote:How much economic risk are we prepared to take in order to have control of immigration. Lots more words above but that's what it boils down to, surely..
I suggest you read my earlier post....
I did read your earlier post. In fact that's what made me want to simplify things.

There is a very high risk that there'll be at least some economic turbulence, of unknown depth or duration. To deny that as a likely outcome of an out vote would be simply irresponsible.

But - there's an undeniable frustration with not being able to control the movement of people and the impact that has on jobs and welfare, as well as an emotional suspicion of Europe and a desire to be an independent nation.

I'm not stating a personal position here, just commenting on the central issues for debate.

Fatty eats roadkill
Posts: 3664
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 7:31 pm
Team Supported: Darlington
Location: On top of a 29 year old big chested woman

Re: EU Referendum

Post by Fatty eats roadkill » Mon May 16, 2016 10:15 pm

All boils down to being fucked by big business but with some crumbs thrown to us or fucked by big business with no crumbs and cap doffing. Out means doff your caps!
Waiting for Raj to shaft them!

Henley
Posts: 572
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:49 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Tue May 17, 2016 7:25 am

Fatty eats roadkill wrote:All boils down to being fucked by big business but with some crumbs thrown to us or fucked by big business with no crumbs and cap doffing. Out means doff your caps!
That's democracy. It seems you don't like democracy.

joejaques
Posts: 3057
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:36 am
Team Supported: Darlington
Location: Milford Haven

Re: EU Referendum

Post by joejaques » Tue May 17, 2016 10:27 am

Fatty eats roadkill wrote:All boils down to being fucked by big business but with some crumbs thrown to us or fucked by big business with no crumbs and cap doffing. Out means doff your caps!
Who's going to supply the caps? I don't own one. :roll:
Image

lo36789
Posts: 10929
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:58 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: EU Referendum

Post by lo36789 » Tue May 17, 2016 11:16 am

m62exile wrote:But - there's an undeniable frustration with not being able to control the movement of people and the impact that has on jobs and welfare, as well as an emotional suspicion of Europe and a desire to be an independent nation.
This is where the leave campaign are going wrong though, making this the focus of their debate. Which is why I have been unmoved on the stay side, nothing that leave have offered makes me think it's a good thing.

They have provide no indication of a real benefit to me, the UK public or the EU population as a whole (economically, culturally or environmentally).

If we vote out based on the current campaigns then I am not sure how I feel about the underlying perception/culture of the UK.

User avatar
theoriginalfatcat
Posts: 6717
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:40 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: EU Referendum

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Tue May 17, 2016 1:30 pm

m62exile wrote:How much economic risk are we prepared to take in order to have control of immigration. Lots more words above but that's what it boils down to, surely..

It needs simplifying - and the above is a good start.

But it's not all about money! The politicians think it is, and they reckon they can scare the undecided by stories that we'll all be £3.53p a day worse off - but it's guess work, and even if we are a little worse off (which is debateable) isn't this a price worth paying so that we can be in control of our own destiny.

Andrew Marr wrote an excellent book about the history of every UK government since WW2 ,and the main theme running through it is that our leaders aren't as
clever as they think they are, and that a lot of history is formed by events - is formed by good and bad fortune.

I've been trying to keep an open mind about this upcoming referendum however some of the statements and sound bites that the remain camp have been using are ridiculous. The latest one today is 'Isis would back Brexit' ....................... Wow!
Henley wrote:During Cameron's EU negotiations, he walked in there with a Royal Flush and ended up folding against a 10-high.


I think Cameron's dug a massive hole for himself. If he'd successfully negotiated meaningful change re our border control then I suspect the vote would swing quite well to remain. But he didn't and he couldn't, and now I feel a lot of people are seriously thinking about the whole European project, and what it has become.
Profile pic ↗️
Feethams the Panda. 28 Jan 2012.
Now extinct!

Henley
Posts: 572
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:49 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Tue May 17, 2016 3:22 pm

joejaques wrote:
Fatty eats roadkill wrote:All boils down to being fucked by big business but with some crumbs thrown to us or fucked by big business with no crumbs and cap doffing. Out means doff your caps!
Who's going to supply the caps? I don't own one. :roll:
Fatty doesn't do caps - tin foil hats are more his thing.

joejaques
Posts: 3057
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:36 am
Team Supported: Darlington
Location: Milford Haven

Re: EU Referendum

Post by joejaques » Wed May 18, 2016 11:07 am

lo36789 wrote:
m62exile wrote:But - there's an undeniable frustration with not being able to control the movement of people and the impact that has on jobs and welfare, as well as an emotional suspicion of Europe and a desire to be an independent nation.
This is where the leave campaign are going wrong though, making this the focus of their debate. Which is why I have been unmoved on the stay side, nothing that leave have offered makes me think it's a good thing.

They have provide no indication of a real benefit to me, the UK public or the EU population as a whole (economically, culturally or environmentally).

If we vote out based on the current campaigns then I am not sure how I feel about the underlying perception/culture of the UK.
Probably the greatest benefit to us, and the rest of Europe, is that our leaving could be the finger pulled out of the dyke which could start the break-up of the whole wasteful, corrupt, undemocratic shambles that is the EU. :roll:
Image

Henley
Posts: 572
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:49 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Wed May 18, 2016 5:00 pm

lo36789 wrote:This is where the leave campaign are going wrong though, making this the focus of their debate. Which is why I have been unmoved on the stay side, nothing that leave have offered makes me think it's a good thing.
I find this unbelievable and more a case of you not wanting to see any good coming from Leaving.
lo36789 wrote:They have provide no indication of a real benefit to me, the UK public or the EU population as a whole (economically, culturally or environmentally).
Brexit is not being done for the rest of the EU – why would anyone think it was? Having said that, Brexit would help the EU to become the political union it wants to be by removing a member that doesn’t wish to be involved to the same level (I say this knowing that many of the non-UK EU population doesn’t want political union either).

Culturally – a better chance of retaining British culture, for starters. The Turks are coming – of that there is no doubt. What really annoys me is that the left are mostly non-religious and you’d think their ‘progressive’ view would be such that they would demand no special treatment was made for religion (a.k.a. an ideology) but that’s not how they work. They want to bring down British culture – and I remind you of Tony Blair’s deliberate attempt to change the face of the UK by promoting mass immigration (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... viser.html)

The above two points trump any supposed minor economic benefits of staying in the EU. I equate this to getting a lodger in at home. Yes, you could charge them rent which would reduce your costs/give you more cash. Let even more live with you and it gets better financially still . . .

but would you be happier? I know I wouldn’t. I’d think I’d made an awful mistake – much like how I view the politicians decisions over the last few decades.
lo36789 wrote:If we vote out based on the current campaigns then I am not sure how I feel about the underlying perception/culture of the UK.
How about viewing it as “the majority of British people chose to prioritise sovereignty/democracy and the retention of British culture over chasing (if any) a few extra £s of GDP in 14 years time”.

You either get the above or you never will.

lo36789
Posts: 10929
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:58 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: EU Referendum

Post by lo36789 » Wed May 18, 2016 5:31 pm

Henley wrote:Brexit is not being done for the rest of the EU – why would anyone think it was?
Well i don't really understand why as a nation we are taking decisions which simply benefit those who by absolute chances were conceived between the irish and north seas and the channel?

Surely if everybody works cohesively for relationships and collaboration which benefits all then we are all better off?

So to counteract my point that immigration is the only argument I am hearing, and that is not a valid argument for Brexit you basically just re-emphasize points about immigration.

What is British culture exactly. A series of settlements of farmers that are historically invaded by Romans, Vikings and Saxons? The British culture is a diverse mixture of different influences and that culture can only get stronger.

British culture is not at risk, British culture is flourishing, British culture is changing, British culture is becoming more developed, interesting and diverse.

Henley
Posts: 572
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:49 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Wed May 18, 2016 6:46 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Henley wrote:Brexit is not being done for the rest of the EU – why would anyone think it was?
1. Well i don't really understand why as a nation we are taking decisions which simply benefit those who by absolute chances were conceived between the irish and north seas and the channel?

Surely if everybody works cohesively for relationships and collaboration which benefits all then we are all better off?

2. So to counteract my point that immigration is the only argument I am hearing, and that is not a valid argument for Brexit you basically just re-emphasize points about immigration.

3. What is British culture exactly. A series of settlements of farmers that are historically invaded by Romans, Vikings and Saxons? The British culture is a diverse mixture of different influences and that culture can only get stronger.

British culture is not at risk, British culture is flourishing, British culture is changing, British culture is becoming more developed, interesting and diverse.
1. Are you being serious? :crazy: It's the same reason families in the UK makes a decision to benefit their own family over other families.

2. You must have selective hearing if the only argument you are hearing is about immigration. Read some quality newspapers not the Hope Not Hate or United Against Fascism websites.

3. British culture is not flourishing - it's being transformed (with every other nation's) into one homogenised global culture. I hate that. I love having and visiting different cultures. It saddens me that anyone would want to give up their culture. You can retain your own identity and continue to retain the utmost respect for other nations' cultures. They are not mutually exclusive.

I've just got back from Barcelona. The place is covered in Catalan flags - they want to split from Spain. I wish we could have the same level of pride and desire for self-rule in England.

Henley
Posts: 572
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:49 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Thu May 19, 2016 1:47 pm

Well played, Pat Glass, well played:

http://order-order.com/2016/05/19/remai ... fy-moment/

love it!
Posts: 946
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:06 am
Team Supported: Darlington 1883

Re: EU Referendum

Post by love it! » Thu May 19, 2016 2:16 pm

I read today that 6.8% of jobs are taken by EU citizens, with an increase of 20,000 in the past 3 months. This is on the back of an overall increase in employment. The out campaign who claim all EU citizens working in the UK are stealing our jobs are wrong.

Having people from different cultures enhances our country and I adore visiting different areas of the country to witness the diversity it has brought. If people think that immigration it taking something away from our heritage or the society we live in then that is just someone who hates change.

The polls, which we know do not always reflect public opinion accurately, showed 55% of voters in favor of remaining in with 37% out. I hope the vote is much larger in favor when it comes to the vote and the minority of out people and then shut up.

Post Reply